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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    The reason why Outlaw is so good in MDI is the utility and I'm not only talking about shroud.

    Even if Outlaw didn't have shroud they would still have a crazy good utility package:

    - Gouge
    - Feint
    - Cheat Death (essentially a combat ress… bringing 3 Rogues essentially gives you 3 extra CR's.. think about that :O)
    - Vanish (outlaw doesn't have to use vanish as a part of the combat rotation)
    - Riposte (100 % parry)
    - Cloak
    - Cheap shot
    - Blind
    - Sap
    - Tricks
    But the rogues had this utility even before. And there were no 3-rogue groups before - damage AND utility matters, and utility comes second. I also think that having a warrior tank with AoE stun allowed the 3-rogue comps to thrive and without the warr they wouldn't be as popular. I may be wrong.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Faesroll View Post
    The only reason you see 3 rogues in MDI is because of the ridiculous damage.
    And 3 Shrouds, which let you skip a lot of annoying trash.

    Outlaw damage is still ahead even after these nerfs.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    But the rogues had this utility even before. And there were no 3-rogue groups before - damage AND utility matters, and utility comes second. I also think that having a warrior tank with AoE stun allowed the 3-rogue comps to thrive and without the warr they wouldn't be as popular. I may be wrong.
    Damage is of course also required. But the difference between an Outlaw Rogue and a Fury Warrior is not damage, it’s utility.

    If you gave the Utility of an Outlaw Rogue to Fury then you would start to see 3 Fury warriors in the MDI.

  4. #44
    Do people even use Gouge and Riposte today? I didn't know that was part of the M+ rotation?

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Damage is of course also required. But the difference between an Outlaw Rogue and a Fury Warrior is not damage, it’s utility.

    If you gave the Utility of an Outlaw Rogue to Fury then you would start to see 3 Fury warriors in the MDI.
    Stop trying dude, It's everyone against you. Fury aoe caps at 5 targets, you probably just spiting things out of your own dungeon experience.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Zorachus View Post
    Do people even use Gouge and Riposte today? I didn't know that was part of the M+ rotation?
    Both are used regularly. Gouge is effectively a second Kick, and Riposte is used for various TotT/Vanish shenanigans and of course is yet another oh-shit button until the tank is BRessed.

  7. #47
    Rogues had better utility and dps during legion but you never saw the 3x rogues back then.what has changed is dungeon design and bad class design.
    Ass blizzard themselves said they wanted harder dungeons with BFA hence the tyrannical fortified being the first affix. All of this favoured rogues because choosing what to fight or not is the real thing here.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Zorachus View Post
    Do people even use Gouge and Riposte today? I didn't know that was part of the M+ rotation?
    Both abilities are really strong. Gouge is much more than a second interrupt as it can also stop non-interruptible casts like from the Maggots in Underrot or the monkeys in Freehold.

    Riposte is a really strong defensive in M+ / MDI. You can off-tank for 10 seconds which can be very beneficial (for example for last boss in Siege), you can use it to tank mobs that fixates on you or you can use it on huge trash pulls where incoming damage is harder to see. It’s a strong defensive.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by niztheundead87 View Post
    Rogues had better utility and dps during legion but you never saw the 3x rogues back then.what has changed is dungeon design and bad class design.
    Ass blizzard themselves said they wanted harder dungeons with BFA hence the tyrannical fortified being the first affix. All of this favoured rogues because choosing what to fight or not is the real thing here.
    In Legion, the trash were a lot different than today. In legion you saw teams running 3 WW monks. The tactic was often just to pull huge packs and chain stun them while you nuked them down. It was also much easier to kite trash in Legion. Also a lot of classes lost a lot of utility going from Legion to BFA while Rogues have almost the same toolkit.

    Currently, if you’re just looking for dps then you can bring a lot of classes. Outlaw does not have very strong single target damage. One of the problems with the ranged specs for example is not so much their dps but more the fact that they don’t have interrupts on short cds which is huge problem for the MDI. Outlaw is chosen because it offers both good dps, great control and great defence.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Khain View Post
    Stop trying dude, It's everyone against you. Fury aoe caps at 5 targets, you probably just spiting things out of your own dungeon experience.
    Let’s have a civil discussion my man. No need to get personal. It’s healthy to talk with people you don’t agree with. It opens the mind even if you’re right and the other person is wrong
    Last edited by Kaver; 2019-08-15 at 05:48 AM.

  9. #49
    Dreadlord Vanderez's Avatar
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    I think it's easy to forget that rogues bring a lot more than just damage. They have a lot more utility than some other classes and they bring a unique spell (Shroud) which allows you to skip a lot of trash if needed, thus saving you time. I don't know enough about high end M+ to know if the nerf could've been handled better, but I doubt rogues are now benched as a result of that entirely.

    Perhaps it could make other specs more viable?

    Edit: That said, I thik it's a weird time to nerf them. It's an "issue" that has been known to many of the people I know, and I fidn it hard to believe that Blizzard just now found out about it
    Last edited by Vanderez; 2019-08-15 at 05:56 AM.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanderez View Post
    I think it's easy to forget that rogues bring a lot more than just damage. They have a lot more utility than some other classes and they bring a unique spell (Shroud) which allows you to skip a lot of trash if needed, thus saving you time. I don't know enough about high end M+ to know if the nerf could've been handled better, but I doubt rogues are now benched as a result of that entirely.

    Perhaps it could make other specs more viable?

    Edit: That said, I thik it's a weird time to nerf them. It's an "issue" that has been known to many of the people I know, and I fidn it hard to believe that Blizzard just now found out about it
    I think the nerf was the simple solution (easy for blizzard to implement) but the wrong solution. A lot of classes can bring good dps to M+.

    Outlaw utility is so much more than just shroud. They have 2 interrupts (one which can stop some non-interruptible casts), 2 stuns and 2 CC (blind and sap). No other class has that. It offers so much priority target control which is crucial in M+. At the same time Outlaw also got the best defensive abilities in the game. Outlaw is much more than just dps and shroud.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I think the nerf was the simple solution (easy for blizzard to implement) but the wrong solution. A lot of classes can bring good dps to M+.

    Outlaw utility is so much more than just shroud. They have 2 interrupts (one which can stop some non-interruptible casts), 2 stuns and 2 CC (blind and sap). No other class has that. It offers so much priority target control which is crucial in M+. At the same time Outlaw also got the best defensive abilities in the game. Outlaw is much more than just dps and shroud.
    not only this but the major change since legion is dungeon design that favors skips .in legion everything was more linear with fewer trash. blizzard themselves stated they wanted harder dungeons with more packed trash but they made it the wrong way and all of this favors shroud.at the same time m+ favors melee mostly since ranged have almost to none utility melee has and long interupt cds. take sps for example , insane st dps in raids but garbage in m+.

    the major flaw among all things here is class design , take arms warrior and compare them to the utility a rogue has .arms 0 survivability and 0 utility
    they should either give more classes usefull stuff , like more classes having utility , or even shroud , otherwise make it so you can shroud only once in a dungeon.

    plus i think many people will agree with me on this , those 5% buffs/nerfs are chaning nothing.

    in addition buffing/nerfing based on the top 1 % is toally wrong. the comminity might try and follow the mdi mentality but , most players are either inviting classes with similar armor type , or going random. maybe people forget this but during kara m+ it was 3 ww monks and none cared.

  12. #52
    Dreadlord Vanderez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by niztheundead87 View Post
    not only this but the major change since legion is dungeon design that favors skips .in legion everything was more linear with fewer trash. blizzard themselves stated they wanted harder dungeons with more packed trash but they made it the wrong way and all of this favors shroud.at the same time m+ favors melee mostly since ranged have almost to none utility melee has and long interupt cds. take sps for example , insane st dps in raids but garbage in m+.
    I agree with this. I think it should go even further and make professions give some sort of consumable that works in M+ so you'd have a similar ability to shroud for instance. If we look at shamans mages and hunters they have access to bloodlust. But there are also drums which fulfill the same role, albeit at a lower efficiency. Why can't we extend this other abilities?

    I know, as the poster said above you, that rogues are more than shroud, but it's just an example

    Edit: Lockpicking has this system already

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by niztheundead87 View Post
    not only this but the major change since legion is dungeon design that favors skips .in legion everything was more linear with fewer trash. blizzard themselves stated they wanted harder dungeons with more packed trash but they made it the wrong way and all of this favors shroud.at the same time m+ favors melee mostly since ranged have almost to none utility melee has and long interupt cds. take sps for example , insane st dps in raids but garbage in m+.
    Common misconception. Just because a class/spec isn't in the MDI doesn't mean it's garbage. You can time +20 keys and up with a shadow priest in your group, you know. I've done several high keys with a shadow priest in the group and their overall damage often rival that of the melee dps, while of course being higher on bosses / ST targets.

    That being said, I do agree with you on the dungeon design points and how shroud is quite strong. No amount of utility rivals if we compare to the time it saves you (Shadowmeld being quite close, though!).

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    Common misconception. Just because a class/spec isn't in the MDI doesn't mean it's garbage. You can time +20 keys and up with a shadow priest in your group, you know. I've done several high keys with a shadow priest in the group and their overall damage often rival that of the melee dps, while of course being higher on bosses / ST targets.

    That being said, I do agree with you on the dungeon design points and how shroud is quite strong. No amount of utility rivals if we compare to the time it saves you (Shadowmeld being quite close, though!).
    This is very true, SP with the right setup can actually be quite amazing damage in M+.

    It's just that they add almost no relevant utility. Their interrupt is on a godawful CD, and aside from a fear and the occasional Dispersion cheese they do basically nothing other than add damage. And that puts them in the same camp as many other specs that would have decent enough DPS, but just don't bring all the other stuff you'd rather have. Whereas Outlaw Rogues bring ALL that stuff and more PLUS the DPS.

  15. #55
    I remember when blizzard first released these kind of timed runs and they said they wouldn't tune around what was happening at the extreme top and that it was basically designed to be broken by people and some classes like rogue would inevitably be the best. Sad to see they're trying to change things now. Mythic dungeons by design will never be capable of being balanced at the extreme high end. Let rogues be rouges. (Am a DH BTW, I haven't leveled my rogue since Cataclysm)

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