M: Queen Azshara 14 (0.08%)

[Fevyz]

Eternal Palace is probably one of the better tuned raids in a long while. Ashvane is a decent block but not too rough on guilds, Orgozoa isn't much harder than Ashvane, the only boss that feels mistuned mostly due to the need of multidot classes is Queen's Court. I can see that being a roadblock for alot of guilds that simply don't have the comp for it. Zaqul & Azshara are tuned fine.

The big guilds like Exorsus

[Exkrementor]

There is no point in killing azshara more than once because she drops no mount and you can get her mythic loot on heroic as well. maybe you can kill it twice to get the av for some bench guys.

This is the same situation as it was with KJ. And it will always repeat itself as long as titanforging is in the game and there is an endboss with no mount.

[thilicen]

If you're not good enough, you're not good enough.

Also, why do people always argue that it's either classic or BFA? Why can't people do both, not like there should be much raid prep needed at this time anyway if your guild has it's shit together right?

[Poe]

There is no point in killing azshara more than once because she drops no mount and you can get her mythic loot on heroic as well. maybe you can kill it twice to get the av for some bench guys.

This is the same situation as it was with KJ. And it will always repeat itself as long as titanforging is in the game and there is an endboss with no mount.

The only difference was that KJ dropped higher ilvl loot than the rest of the raid.

This was the case for every Legion raid with the exception of EN. Not sure why they moved away from that idea.

[Relapses]

The only difference was that KJ dropped higher ilvl loot than the rest of the raid.

This was the case for every Legion raid with the exception of EN. Not sure why they moved away from that idea.

It makes loot from the rest of the raid feel less important. In a world already greatly impacted by WF and TF it's just RNG icing on an already overstuffed RNG cake.

[Poe]

It makes loot from the rest of the raid feel less important. In a world already greatly impacted by WF and TF it's just RNG icing on an already overstuffed RNG cake.

I think that is fine when the last boss is significantly more difficult than the rest of the raid. it keeps the last boss from feeling unimportant especially when some endbosses have undertuned loot tables ex. Ghuun trinkets.

[Osmeric]

Only 11,000 guilds with kills of any boss on wowprogress, that's the lowest in the history of WoW. It's half of BDA, a third of Uldir. There were still 25,000 guilds raiding in Antorus and 27,000 in Tomb of Sargeras. 29,000 raiding in Hellfire Citadel in WoD.

That's the number of guilds with kills on any boss in H EP or higher. At this moment they track 17,903 guilds with a kill on N EP or higher.

It's still fallen quite a bit since the start of the expansion, I agree.

[Unforgivenn]

Well. Limit and method didnt killed azshara last reset (and both killed zaqul), so yeah, really a bit overtuned

[Khallid]

1 month into Mythic. This is close to M ToS levels of participation and it could be a repeat of the ToS fiasco. The big guilds like Exorsus have only just defeated the encounter. It looks like we'll be in the palace till 2020 at least, especially with people making the switch to Classic.

Do you anticipate severe nerfs to this raid to stop the hemorrhaging of participation?

What do you mean by participation? People haven't killed the boss because it's hard, not because they stopped raiding. Most of us haven't even got to pull her because we still need to kill all the other bosses to get there. That has nothing to do with participation.

And nerfs will happen like they always do. End bosses seem to be purposely harder than necessary just so the world-first-race guilds don't kill them instantly.

[Malefic]

The Eternal Palace is probably the single best raid Blizzard have ever released from a hardcore Mythic raider perspective.

We're looking at the least nerfed raid (from Blizzard directly) we've ever had. We're looking at a raid where it's clear "next week's gear" will do wonders. Almost every encounter is made notably easy by gear/DPS, which isn't always the case. Many mechanically intense fights are often challenging weeks after being killed because of aspects of the fight that aren't easier with gear and "that one shot mechanic is still going to one shot you" but Eternal Palace is probably the most well rounded raid Blizzard have ever released.

Class balance is also great from a DPS perspective (Healers are forced towards DR CD based healers and if you're not a Monk tank then you're doing something wrong, but DPS is in one of the best spots it's been in a while).

[exochaft]

And nerfs will happen like they always do. End bosses seem to be purposely harder than necessary just so the world-first-race guilds don't kill them instantly.

My guess is that once a good portion of the mythic raiding population gets their 3rd essence slot unlocked, we'll start seeing nerfs coming out shortly after that. M Ashvane (at least in my eyes) is the 3rd essence slot bar for most people, where before you get that essence slot you'll likely be struggling a bit. Personally I'm in a 2 day mythic raiding guild that's really casual from my standards, and only myself and one other person have 3rd essence slots unlocked and M Ashvane is certainly doable albeit a little rough. Rest of the guilds on my server are struggling pretty hard with the DPS checks despite having many more days work on it, and getting that 3rd essence slot unlocked will likely help them kill M Ashvane. I'm fairly certain this will be the case for most mythic raiding guilds that are stuck on her.

If I did have a complaint about the raiding system in general, it seems to heavily rely on people doing M+ to gear out for it. Almost all my gear I use for raiding didn't come from raiding at all, majority is M+ (benthic aside). If I relied solely on raid gear, I'd probably be half naked despite clearing heroic every week. Almost all of this is due to personal loot and the war/titanforging system (and their interactions and trading restrictions), but it costs our raid due to a severe lack of weapon, Azerite, and trinket drops. When you kill a mythic raid boss and literally everyone gets cloaks that are useless due to the power of sockets or just all the loot is trash or can't be traded to people that need it, it's frustrating beyond belief this early in a raid tier. Anyways, not to derail the topic at hand, I think the difficulty of mythic raiding is not a big issue compared to the loot system in general right now.

[kappalol]

Will be nerfed to the ground like Mythic Jaina. That fight is a joke since last nerf.

[Rustov]

My guess is that once a good portion of the mythic raiding population gets their 3rd essence slot unlocked, we'll start seeing nerfs coming out shortly after that. M Ashvane (at least in my eyes) is the 3rd essence slot bar for most people, where before you get that essence slot you'll likely be struggling a bit. Personally I'm in a 2 day mythic raiding guild that's really casual from my standards, and only myself and one other person have 3rd essence slots unlocked and M Ashvane is certainly doable albeit a little rough. Rest of the guilds on my server are struggling pretty hard with the DPS checks despite having many more days work on it, and getting that 3rd essence slot unlocked will likely help them kill M Ashvane. I'm fairly certain this will be the case for most mythic raiding guilds that are stuck on her.

If I did have a complaint about the raiding system in general, it seems to heavily rely on people doing M+ to gear out for it. Almost all my gear I use for raiding didn't come from raiding at all, majority is M+ (benthic aside). If I relied solely on raid gear, I'd probably be half naked despite clearing heroic every week. Almost all of this is due to personal loot and the war/titanforging system (and their interactions and trading restrictions), but it costs our raid due to a severe lack of weapon, Azerite, and trinket drops. When you kill a mythic raid boss and literally everyone gets cloaks that are useless due to the power of sockets or just all the loot is trash or can't be traded to people that need it, it's frustrating beyond belief this early in a raid tier. Anyways, not to derail the topic at hand, I think the difficulty of mythic raiding is not a big issue compared to the loot system in general right now.

I agree, and this problem seeps down to casual players like myself. Have never stepped foot in normal Eternal Palace, nor done a mythic+ dungeon, nor Mechagon, nor pvp, and 7 total LFR kills. And despite all that, ilvl 414. I geared myself up so I could pug this higher-end content, but I can't find pugs because no one is doing them, because the gear rewards are not commensurate with the complexity and difficulty.

[Emerald Archer]

and you can get her mythic loot on heroic as well.

440 is the highest you can get her weapon in heroic, whereas you can get it 455 on mythic.

That weapon is the only long term reason to keep killing her, because it is so unbelievably strong, that it will be used in the next raids progression assuming there isn't a notable nerf to it.

So guilds interested in progression next tier, absolutely will rekill it for weapons and wf/socket versions of that weapon.

Doesn't hurt that it's going to be one of the easiest rekill bosses we've had as a last boss in ages

[Dracodraco]

I agree, and this problem seeps down to casual players like myself. Have never stepped foot in normal Eternal Palace, nor done a mythic+ dungeon, nor Mechagon, nor pvp, and 7 total LFR kills. And despite all that, ilvl 414. I geared myself up so I could pug this higher-end content, but I can't find pugs because no one is doing them, because the gear rewards are not commensurate with the complexity and difficulty.

It's not that nobody is doing shit. It's because you're in worse ilvl than we were previous tier and everyone doing the "higher-end content" has set a minimum requirement on item level at 425-430 or so, so you can't even *see* the groups because your ilvl is too low.

[slime]

There is no point in killing azshara more than once because she drops no mount and you can get her mythic loot on heroic as well. maybe you can kill it twice to get the av for some bench guys.

This is the same situation as it was with KJ. And it will always repeat itself as long as titanforging is in the game and there is an endboss with no mount.

KJ has a mount?

[derpkitteh]

it's mythic. is this not the point of mythic? something hard, that few people will experience?

[Osmeric]

If I did have a complaint about the raiding system in general, it seems to heavily rely on people doing M+ to gear out for it. Almost all my gear I use for raiding didn't come from raiding at all, majority is M+ (benthic aside). If I relied solely on raid gear, I'd probably be half naked despite clearing heroic every week. Almost all of this is due to personal loot and the war/titanforging system (and their interactions and trading restrictions), but it costs our raid due to a severe lack of weapon, Azerite, and trinket drops. When you kill a mythic raid boss and literally everyone gets cloaks that are useless due to the power of sockets or just all the loot is trash or can't be traded to people that need it, it's frustrating beyond belief this early in a raid tier. Anyways, not to derail the topic at hand, I think the difficulty of mythic raiding is not a big issue compared to the loot system in general right now.

This is striking me as very true. There is just one M raiding guild left on my main's server. The others transferred off or fell apart, with recruiting cited as the difficulty. And I can't blame people who don't really have their hearts sets on M raiding for bowing out: they can get gear in M+ now.

[MrLachyG]

Only 11,000 guilds with kills of any boss on wowprogress, that's the lowest in the history of WoW. It's half of BDA, a third of Uldir. There were still 25,000 guilds raiding in Antorus and 27,000 in Tomb of Sargeras. 29,000 raiding in Hellfire Citadel in WoD.

you're comparing participation in a 5 week old raid to raids that were open for 6+ months? I mean come on, that's a bit of a stretch. plus your numbers are wrong because you're ignoring normal. I think you will find that the numbers will increase as the tier progresses.

[Orwell7]

First,
the raid itself, the risk/reward system is top-notch this patch. We didn't liked ToS because it was filled with oneshot mechanics and couldn't be overgeared.
Now with essences, a new minor slot coming with 65 neck level, nice trinkets (!) and azerite from raids I say people will get LOTS of player power over the next few weeks, hence, the instance self-regulates itself.
This IS the system I advised for, so props to Blizzard on this.

Second,
M+ vs Raid gearing
There are lots of types of people. One plays for the challenge, other for the loot/power, other for novelty, prestige, you name it.
Fortunately we've got Mechagon HM for people who like to do non-raid, NON-TIMED, but challenging content. So it is all covered.
What we need now is solo challenges like the Mage Tower.

Hell, every major patch should include:
-challenging 8-12 boss raids + one 2-3 boss raid with shared loot, but they should release at once so world first guilds have some /rng on which bosses they decide to try on
-challenging 5-man dungeon
-new M+ affix
-solo mage tower content
-one/two "islands" with new ores/herbs and maybe a currency (manapearls)

Every 6-9 months, seasonal pass, everything "modern" and you have WoW 2.0 for real!