Did the inclusion of Demon Hunters effect the Monk class?

[Teriz]

We all know that Blizzard moved Metamorphosis out of the Warlock class in order to allow the introduction of the Demon Hunter class pre-legion, but one class alteration tends to fall under the radar; The change in the DPS and Tanking spec of the Monk class.

In MoP and WoD, the Brewmaster spec had the distinction of being the tank that could dual wield. This included the ability to wield warglaives and other 1h weapons. This was changed in Legion, where the Demon Hunter became the DW tank, and Brewmasters were forced to only be able to wield staves. While that was more fitting of the Brewmaster lore, the Monk class lost a very distinct feature that set their tanking spec apart from other tanking specs, and the Monk class lost a little flair as well.

The Windwalker spec was also altered in Legion. While still being able to equip 1h weapons, their weapon-based attack animations were removed so that regardless of the weapon equipped, the Monk would only attack with fists. Again, while more fitting of the class lore, it felt incredibly cheap, disappointing, and just plain weird to get a beautiful pair of butterfly swords that remained on your back while you attacked.

Additionally Monks lost a few other abilities and distinctions with the arrival of Demon Hunters; In MoP and WoD Monks were regarded as the "mobile class" thanks to their abilities Roll and Flying Serpent Kick. However, Demon Hunters took that mantle with their dashing abilities and double jumps. Demon Hunters got abilities very similar to Guard and Gift of the Ox, which further eroded the distinctiveness of the existing Monk class.

The point? This is why it is important to push for truly distinct classes in WoW. Potential classes which are too similar to existing classes will only cannibalize existing classes and make them worse off than what they were before. Hopefully, the inclusion of the Demon Hunter is the last time we see Blizzard bring in a class with such a limited amount of design space that took abilities and concepts away from multiple existing classes.

[Triceron]

Well Frost DK was the first dual wield tank, even before Monks got it, so the question is did the Demon Hunters (affect) the Death Knights.

/s


Considering what legion did and how Artifacts were put into play and how every spec was funneled down to one weapon type, I don't think most players cared that anything was taken away or affected because their core mechanics had to change for all sorts of reasons that you couldn't just pin it down to one singular thing. And in the end, the Artifact system more than made up for any of those changes.

I was Feral Druid and I've always wielded a Mace/Staff. Suddenly Legion got turned into Fist-weapons and Daggers. It didn't really change anything. The gameplay still felt the same regardless of the weapon or the style, there was more change to Guardian in changing the rotation than swapping the weapon. It's not like I'd point at Monks for 'taking our Staves away' in Legion. Keep in mind; Bears were the definitive Dodge tank since TBC. This was only really ever addressed in Legion, and that was given to the Monks instead. The Monks are now the one with a Dodge mechanic in their mastery.

[Tyrathius]

Honestly, one of the main reasons I originally wanted Demon Hunters to wear mail despite it not having much basis in lore is that they'd be less redundant. We already have Monks and Druids as super mobile leather wearers, so DHs aren't bringing much to the table in that regard.

I'm not sure the Monk pruning was really all that related to DHs though. I think it's more that everyone was getting pruned in WoD and Legion and DHs just happened to come out around that time.

[Malikath]

Well Frost DK was the first dual wield tank, even before Monks got it, so the question is did the Demon Hunters (affect) the Death Knights.

in a way, yes.
this entire issue stems from the lack of cumulative development.
DH's also effected warlocks by motivating them to remove warlock's ability to track demons and see invisible objects to maintain the illusion of class diversity.
so instead of adding things to make classes unique, they remove them to make them special.

[Triceron]

in a way, yes.
this entire issue stems from the lack of cumulative development.
DH's also effected warlocks by motivating them to remove warlock's ability to track demons and see invisible objects to maintain the illusion of class diversity.
so instead of adding thing to make classes unique, they remove them to make them special.

Well it all depends on your perspective.

All mechanics at this point are fairly derivative of each other. There isn't anything that's truly unique in WoW's gameplay any more, everything is based off something else. And if they come up with something truly unique? Well it'd make it harder for them to balance, and why would they want to do that?

So even if we had a super special new theme-new mechanics fresh class, it will still have to fit in an existing niche, and frankly there isn't much room to begin with. Like Tanking, if you're gonna have another class that uses a 'form' to tank, then that's going to infringe on the Druids and now the Demon Hunters. If you have another Shield user, then it's up against Paladins and Warriors. If you use Pet tanking, then it's gonna be hard to balance and exist for one expansion and changed by the next (like DK 3 tank spec or Fistweaving).

[Ielenia]

We all know that Blizzard moved Metamorphosis out of the Warlock class in order to allow the introduction of the Demon Hunter class pre-legion, but one class alteration tends to fall under the radar; The change in the DPS and Tanking spec of the Monk class.

In MoP and WoD, the Brewmaster spec had the distinction of being the tank that could dual wield. This included the ability to wield warglaives and other 1h weapons. This was changed in Legion, where the Demon Hunter became the DW tank, and Brewmasters were forced to only be able to wield staves. While that was more fitting of the Brewmaster lore, the Monk class lost a very distinct feature that set their tanking spec apart from other tanking specs, and the Monk class lost a little flair as well.

While they could dual-wield, it was much better wielding staves/polearms than dual-wielding one-handed weapons, for a brewmaster tank. To the point that a polearm from a normal raid tier would often out-perform dual-wielding heroic one-handers from the next raid tier.

And as others pointed out, the frost death knights were the original "dual-wield tanks", back in Wrath.

The Windwalker spec was also altered in Legion. While still being able to equip 1h weapons, their weapon-based attack animations were removed so that regardless of the weapon equipped, the Monk would only attack with fists. Again, while more fitting of the class lore, it felt incredibly cheap, disappointing, and just plain weird to get a beautiful pair of butterfly swords that remained on your back while you attacked.

As far as I recall, the monk animations were always about attacking with fists, unless you were wielding fist weapons, and your weapon would only show when you used Jab. I could be wrong, though.

Additionally Monks lost a few other abilities and distinctions with the arrival of Demon Hunters; In MoP and WoD Monks were regarded as the "mobile class" thanks to their abilities Roll and Flying Serpent Kick. However, Demon Hunters took that mantle with their dashing abilities and double jumps. Demon Hunters got abilities very similar to Guard and Gift of the Ox, which further eroded the distinctiveness of the existing Monk class.

This is rather irrelevant. Because the same things you're talking about the "demon hunter negatively impacting the monk class" could be said about the "monk negatively impacting the rogue class", as rogues were the "mobile class" with their abilities like sprint, vanish and teleporting behind enemies from afar.

The point? This is why it is important to push for truly distinct classes in WoW. Potential classes which are too similar to existing classes will only cannibalize existing classes and make them worse off than what they were before. Hopefully, the inclusion of the Demon Hunter is the last time we see Blizzard bring in a class with such a limited amount of design space that took abilities and concepts away from multiple existing classes.

Ah. So this is a veiled Tinker thread. I got it now. I should've expected this conclusion, really.

[Teriz]

Well Frost DK was the first dual wield tank, even before Monks got it, so the question is did the Demon Hunters (affect) the Death Knights.

/s


Considering what legion did and how Artifacts were put into play and how every spec was funneled down to one weapon type, I don't think most players cared that anything was taken away or affected because their core mechanics had to change for all sorts of reasons that you couldn't just pin it down to one singular thing. And in the end, the Artifact system more than made up for any of those changes.

I was Feral Druid and I've always wielded a Mace/Staff. Suddenly Legion got turned into Fist-weapons and Daggers. It didn't really change anything. The gameplay still felt the same regardless of the weapon or the style, there was more change to Guardian in changing the rotation than swapping the weapon. It's not like I'd point at Monks for 'taking our Staves away' in Legion. Keep in mind; Bears were the definitive Dodge tank since TBC. This was only really ever addressed in Legion, and that was given to the Monks instead. The Monks are now the one with a Dodge mechanic in their mastery.

Except it didn't feel the same with the Monk class. The loss of Jab really took a lot of the character out of the class, because originally you could choose from multiple weapon types, and Jab provided animation showing you actually attacking with the equipped weapon. In Legion, Brewmasters could only use staves, and regardless of weapon choice, Windwalkers could only punch. This was a pretty glaring omission in Windwalker especially because they gave you two 1h swords that remained on your back the entire time you're attacking. After Legion, the two non-healing Monk specs are still stuck in those two types of attacks, and there's really no reason for it outside of doing it to make Demon Hunters feel more unique.

And yeah, I got no problem mentioning that Monks infringed a bit on Druids with Dodge. However its important to note that Monks in turn lost Elusive Brew right when Demon Hunters entered the game with Blur.

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While they could dual-wield, it was much better wielding staves/polearms than dual-wielding one-handed weapons, for a brewmaster tank. To the point that a polearm from a normal raid tier would often out-perform dual-wielding heroic one-handers from the next raid tier.

Performance isn't the only reason people choose a weapon though. Some people simply prefer the aesthetic of a Monk attacking with 2 swords (or Warglaives). Taking away that option hurts the overall enjoyment of the class.

And as others pointed out, the frost death knights were the original "dual-wield tanks", back in Wrath.

But they lost that ability because Blizzard wanted Blood to be the tanking spec of Death Knights in Cataclysm, not because they were trying to make the new class unique in MoP.

As far as I recall, the monk animations were always about attacking with fists, unless you were wielding fist weapons, and your weapon would only show when you used Jab. I could be wrong, though.

Nope. When equipped with a weapon, the Jab icon changed to match the type of weapon you had equipped, and the animation showed the Monk attacking with the weapon and immediately resheathing it.

This is rather irrelevant. Because the same things you're talking about the "demon hunter negatively impacting the monk class" could be said about the "monk negatively impacting the rogue class", as rogues were the "mobile class" with their abilities like sprint, vanish and teleporting behind enemies from afar.

Except if I remember correctly, Monks were actually labeled THE mobile class in WoW.

Ah. So this is a veiled Tinker thread. I got it now. I should've expected this conclusion, really.

No, it's a reminder that there are fans of existing classes who shouldn't get things taken away from them to facilitate a similar new class. I haven't seriously played my Monk since WoD specifically because of the pruning that took place to the class in Legion.

[Ielenia]

Performance isn't the only reason people choose a weapon though. Some people simply prefer the aesthetic of a Monk attacking with 2 swords (or Warglaives). Taking away that option hurts the overall enjoyment of the class.

Perhaps, but the reason for that was not because of the introduction of the demon hunter. It was because Blizzard focused too much on "spec identity", so making the DPS spec dual-wield exclusively while the tank spec exclusively was because of that, not because of the demon hunter. And Blizzard admitted that they focused "too much" on spec identity, so if they rectify that on 9.0 there is a chance that monks might be able to dual-wield tank or 2H DPS again in the next expansion.

Nope. When equipped with a weapon, the Jab icon changed to match the type of weapon you had equipped, and the animation showed the Monk attacking with the weapon and immediately resheathing it.

Well, yes, the weapon would always show on your back/hips, but you'd only use your weapon in combat when you used Jab.

[Teriz]

Perhaps, but the reason for that was not because of the introduction of the demon hunter. It was because Blizzard focused too much on "spec identity", so making the DPS spec dual-wield exclusively while the tank spec exclusively was because of that, not because of the demon hunter. And Blizzard admitted that they focused "too much" on spec identity, so if they rectify that on 9.0 there is a chance that monks might be able to dual-wield tank or 2H DPS again in the next expansion.

Except they removed the animation of dual wielding as well, so even the DPS Monk spec isn't shown actually swinging a sword/mace/etc. dual wielding, they just punch. That looks awkward because your equipped weapons never leave your back. It's similar to Feral druids, but at least with Ferals the weapon disappears when you shapeshift. With Monks, you can still see the weapon, and it almost forces you to equip only fist weapons.

Again, in MoP and WoD the weapons were actually used in the attack animation, and each weapon type had a different animation.

Well, yes, the weapon would always show on your back/hips, but you'd only use your weapon in combat when you used Jab.

Yes, but you used Jab a lot in your rotation, and it was satisfying to be able to choose from a wide variety of weapons that could actually be used while in combat. Again, there was zero reason to remove the ability outside of making room for a Demon Hunter class, especially after we lost our artifact weapons.

[rohoz]

it's more like

dw tanks were the least played dks at high level
meta was a wc3 dh ability

but go on

[allegos]

This is going to show how long it’s been since I paid attention to tank forums, but maybe I can learn something.

My understanding was that dual wielding wasn’t recommendable for Death Knight tanks when the class was first introduced because it doubled the boss’s chances of getting in a parry, followed by a free attack against the tank that didn’t count against the boss’s swing timer. This mechanic was the same reason why tanks would typically maneuver a boss so that it wasn’t facing the damage dealers, and damage dealers would attack from behind the boss in order to reduce the number of boss attacks against the tank.

Did all of this change at some point, so that dual wielding would become desirable for a Monk tank? Or would the staff still have been the better defense option when that class was implemented, because it meant fewer parties and counterattacks?

Was this combat mechanic simply patched out at some point? Is this why tanks and damage dealers don’t seem to care about facing in dungeons anymore? I thought it was people not caring about mechanics.

[Ielenia]

Except they removed the animation of dual wielding as well, so even the DPS Monk spec isn't shown actually swinging a sword/mace/etc. dual wielding, they just punch. That looks awkward because your equipped weapons never leave your back. It's similar to Feral druids, but at least with Ferals the weapon disappears when you shapeshift. With Monks, you can still see the weapon, and it almost forces you to equip only fist weapons.

Well, yeah, that is the whole deal of the monk: unarmored combat. And "forces you"? No, it doesn't. My monk has two katanas on its back, and that's because I like how they look on my monk's back, even if he never uses them in actual combat.

Again, in MoP and WoD the weapons were actually used in the attack animation, and each weapon type had a different animation.

I could be wrong, but if memory serves, the Jab just used the default racial attack animation for 2h/1h weapon attacks.

Yes, but you used Jab a lot in your rotation, and it was satisfying to be able to choose from a wide variety of weapons that could actually be used while in combat. Again, there was zero reason to remove the ability outside of making room for a Demon Hunter class, especially after we lost our artifact weapons.

I think you're projecting your feelings as the way the majority, or even just a decent chunk of the player base, feels about that. The whole appeal of the monk is, and always was, unarmored combat where you think yourself as the "Bruce Lee" or "Jackie Chan" of WoW. The appeal of the class was its oriental martial arts style, i.e., its bare-handed combat.

[korijenkins]

I mean I would argue that DH is trying to fulfill a role that is already fulfilled partially or near-fully by several classes. There were already several melee dps specs in the game, several tank specs, and two highly mobile leather-wearing melee dps classes.

I still maintain the DH should've had a ranged dps spec in addition to it's melee one, or maybe even replacing it. Another problem was that, on release, it was good at pretty much everything, whereas other DPS specs had hard weaknesses. It was mobile, had good defensives and raid cds, had good aoe, and good single target dps. Obviously that's going to be more valuable than a dps monk, a class without solid raid cds, not to mention mobility for monks was more of a cd, was slower, and was not built into the damage you deal.

I guess my attitude towards DH was that it was added to please a crowd, to sell boxes, and to get people to play the game. It was not added because it made sense lore-wise or because the game truly needed it.

[Teriz]

Well, yeah, that is the whole deal of the monk: unarmored combat. And "forces you"? No, it doesn't. My monk has two katanas on its back, and that's because I like how they look on my monk's back, even if he never uses them in actual combat.

I said "almost forces you", because it looks awkward to have weapons on your back that you never use. And yeah, I enjoyed having two katanas with my Monk. And I enjoyed it more when I could actually use the Katanas to slice up my enemies instead of just punching them.

I could be wrong, but if memory serves, the Jab just used the default racial attack animation for 2h/1h weapon attacks.

Even if that's true, it's still better than just punching regardless of your equipped weapon.

I think you're projecting your feelings as the way the majority, or even just a decent chunk of the player base, feels about that. The whole appeal of the monk is, and always was, unarmored combat where you think yourself as the "Bruce Lee" or "Jackie Chan" of WoW. The appeal of the class was its oriental martial arts style, i.e., its bare-handed combat.

And you could use fist weapons if you wanted to. That's the point, the previous Monk build gave you options to how you wanted to fight. Now you're pigeonholed into one type of fighting and attack, because regardless of what you equip, it's still a punch. It's nonsensical for anyone to say that reducing options for a player is a positive.

- - - Updated - - -

This is going to show how long it’s been since I paid attention to tank forums, but maybe I can learn something.

My understanding was that dual wielding wasn’t recommendable for Death Knight tanks when the class was first introduced because it doubled the boss’s chances of getting in a parry, followed by a free attack against the tank that didn’t count against the boss’s swing timer. This mechanic was the same reason why tanks would typically maneuver a boss so that it wasn’t facing the damage dealers, and damage dealers would attack from behind the boss in order to reduce the number of boss attacks against the tank.

Did all of this change at some point, so that dual wielding would become desirable for a Monk tank? Or would the staff still have been the better defense option when that class was implemented, because it meant fewer parties and counterattacks?

Was this combat mechanic simply patched out at some point? Is this why tanks and damage dealers don’t seem to care about facing in dungeons anymore? I thought it was people not caring about mechanics.

I think it wasn't a huge deal for Monks because they relied more on Stagger, Dodge, and active mitigation like Guard than Parry. Staves were favored because they provided more stats.

It was simply fun to use two swords or maces while tanking. Now the only thing the Brewmaster tank can use is a staff or polearm.

[Ielenia]

I said "almost forces you", because it looks awkward to have weapons on your back that you never use. And yeah, I enjoyed having two katanas with my Monk. And I enjoyed it more when I could actually use the Katanas to slice up my enemies instead of just punching them.


Even if that's true, it's still better than just punching regardless of your equipped weapon.

Again, that is just how you feel. It doesn't necessarily mean there's a decent chunk of the player base that shares your feelings in that regard. For all we know, you may be alone on this issue, or just you and a handful other players, out of the tens of thousands who play the class. I don't think there has ever been an outcry regarding the removal of the "jab" ability and giving its functionality to Tiger Palm.

The whole point of the monk is punching/kicking things. That's like complaining that the death knight is "too dark".

And you could use fist weapons if you wanted to. That's the point, the previous Monk build gave you options to how you wanted to fight. Now you're pigeonholed into one type of fighting and attack, because regardless of what you equip, it's still a punch. It's nonsensical for anyone to say that reducing options for a player is a positive.

No, not really. Even when you had jab, it was still just one ability out of the entire repertoire of the monk's class that attacked with the equipped weapon. Whether you wanted or not, you were attacking bare-handed. One single ability doesn't really make that much of a difference, and again, the whole shtick of the monk is oriental style martial arts. Unarmed combat.

[Mixxy]

Monks honestly still have stronger mobility than Demon Hunters. Not by much, but they still come out ahead.

[Teriz]

Again, that is just how you feel. It doesn't necessarily mean there's a decent chunk of the player base that shares your feelings in that regard. For all we know, you may be alone on this issue, or just you and a handful other players, out of the tens of thousands who play the class. I don't think there has ever been an outcry regarding the removal of the "jab" ability and giving its functionality to Tiger Palm.

Uh, there's a lot of threads in multiple forums asking for Jab to come back. While I agree there isn't an outcry, that doesn't mean that it's good for a class to lose options simply because a new class enters the game and infringes on its design space.

No, not really. Even when you had jab, it was still just one ability out of the entire repertoire of the monk's class that attacked with the equipped weapon. Whether you wanted or not, you were attacking bare-handed. One single ability doesn't really make that much of a difference, and again, the whole shtick of the monk is oriental style martial arts. Unarmed combat.

You have a shoddy memory. Jab allowed you to actually attack with your equipped weapon, and in the case of Brewmasters it allowed you to choose from a wider variety of weapons than what they have now. How is having more choice a bad thing? Currently, Brewmasters can only really use staves and polearms, whereas in MoP and WoD they could DW 1h weapons to tank with as well. Additionally you could still do unarmed combat with Jab since it also allowed you to use fist weapons.

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Monks honestly still have stronger mobility than Demon Hunters. Not by much, but they still come out ahead.

Yeah, but my issue with DHs is that they infringed on Monk turf to begin with. Monks could have/should have gotten Double Jump for example. Now the Monk class is pretty much sandwiched between Demon Hunters and Rogues.

[Cosmic Janitor]

This is more on Legion and forcing specs into certain weapon types..

RIP only true frost DK ..

[Teriz]

This is more on Legion and forcing specs into certain weapon types..

RIP only true frost DK ..

That isnt really true though, because Monks can still use all the weapons they could in previous expansions. Blizzard gave Brewmasters an ability similar to Jab, but it only works with Staffs and Polearms. WW Monks can still equip weapons,but all of their attacks are fists.

Also if that was the case, that limitation should have ended in Legion.

[Cosmic Janitor]

That isnt really true though, because Monks can still use all the weapons they could in previous expansions. Blizzard gave Brewmasters an ability similar to Jab, but it only works with Staffs and Polearms. WW Monks can still equip weapons,but all of their attacks are fists.

Also if that was the case, that limitation should have ended in Legion.

What? Especially the brewmaster lock to 2h weapons is the direct equivalent of frost DK's being forced to dual wield. They pigeonholed all melee speccs into 1 general weapon type, only casters can pick and choose, because their weapons are purely additive stat sticks. Of course it should have ended after legion, but this is more than just some litte cosmetic change, it was part of a streamlining (read: redesigning) of the class mechanics and obviously stayed for the no-effort mess that BfA was class wise. This has nothing to do with DH taking some niche from Monks, this is just some half assed class/loot balancing and misguided class fantasy.