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  1. #1

    Alliance Why can't there be an actual Alliance?

    I know Warcraft has always had the focus of Orcs vs Humans, but seeing as the massive troll/undead presence, taking over the Orc-part, I feel like it's time to think about the human-part.

    We know humans are a young race and that the older races, the elves and eredar, bring a lot more experience to the table. Each race, just like in the Horde, brings something unique. Each race has it's own qualities.

    But, it seems that for a while now, the focus has been on humans. The same goes for the 'high-king'. Why is it called an alliance if it's just a high-king making all the decisions. Why can't it work like the council of three hammers? Have the Alliance be an actual council where experience weighs in.

    Each ruler can still govern over its faction and army, and there can be a unified Alliance-army being led by various people in various situations, but right now people are complaining that the elves are being ignored, the draenei are either chilling somewhere or feeling useless. And not to mention the massive knowledge and skills we've seen the gnomes/dwarves have.

    Isn't it time for a true Alliance of (semi)equality?

  2. #2
    AFAIK it was an actual Alliance a while back but during some expansion it became this High King stuff. My lore isn't perfect I'm sure someone knows. Blizz made the change for some reason. I would prefer an actual Alliance too but Blizz wants to push popular figureheads, probably because it's easier and appeals to more people.

  3. #3
    Because the High King doesn't make all the decisions. When Genn and Tyrande wanted to move their forces into Darkshore, they could do it, even though Anduin disagreed.

    It was as simple as that. They said they were going to do it and they did it. They didn't even have to fight a honor-duel over it.
    Higgledy-piggledy Lord Wyman Manderly
    Sups with his foes, leaving Nary a crumb.

    Wolvering wolverenes Incontrovertibly
    Tell all who hearken that Winter is come.

  4. #4
    Blizzard probably made the change for easier marketing. The Horde has a Warchief, and they wanted a counterpart instead of having two different systems.
    This is just a small part of the bad lore that was written for WoW.

  5. #5
    There was a great topic on this a while back about the High King as Blue Warchief. Comes highly recommended.

    In brief, the simplest of many reasons why the Alliance ended up subsumed into the High King is because the focus shifted from setting to character but player attachment has to follow. All other races, who have more defined and separate cultures and in turn characters do not serve as well as the blank slates that are Stormwind in its king. It also provides a counterpoint to the Horde, which always having been an autocracy, already has such a figure in the Warchief. Additionally, it's easier to write stories for one race and have all other races essentially be different versions of it than to juggle many competing ideas and agendas. This despite being an 'alliance' being a very core thing to the WC2 and even Vanilla-era Alliance. The current congealment of all characters into a single general ethos is done with the same general purpose of ease of writing and greater marketability.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  6. #6
    Because it's easier from the writers' perspective to just focus everything on two or three major characters, which is why Anduin, Jaina, and Greymane have such major roles while Alleria, Turalyon, Velen, or Muradin haven't done jackshit in this expansion. I can't imagine them giving equal attention to every leader of the Alliance.
    The Void can be used to protect the world, not to destroy it. But as with any weapon or magic, one must learn to wield it correctly.

  7. #7
    wow isn't an mmorpg story. its a story about a few superheroes in a superhero world

  8. #8
    Because Blizzard doesn't want to write politics.
    I give my flesh and blood freely to the Warchief. I am the instrument of my Warchief's desire. I am a weapon of my Warchief's command.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by JonTargaryen View Post
    Because the High King doesn't make all the decisions. When Genn and Tyrande wanted to move their forces into Darkshore, they could do it, even though Anduin disagreed.

    It was as simple as that. They said they were going to do it and they did it. They didn't even have to fight a honor-duel over it.
    This is true.. although they did feel the need to inform him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    There was a great topic on this a while back about the High King as Blue Warchief. Comes highly recommended.

    In brief, the simplest of many reasons why the Alliance ended up subsumed into the High King is because the focus shifted from setting to character but player attachment has to follow. All other races, who have more defined and separate cultures and in turn characters do not serve as well as the blank slates that are Stormwind in its king. It also provides a counterpoint to the Horde, which always having been an autocracy, already has such a figure in the Warchief. Additionally, it's easier to write stories for one race and have all other races essentially be different versions of it than to juggle many competing ideas and agendas. This despite being an 'alliance' being a very core thing to the WC2 and even Vanilla-era Alliance. The current congealment of all characters into a single general ethos is done with the same general purpose of ease of writing and greater marketability.
    Oh I must've missed that topic! Thanks! Interesting read!
    I get your point, but you'd think that with a big RPG, a lot of stuff can be explored storywise...

    Quote Originally Posted by Void Fallen View Post
    Because it's easier from the writers' perspective to just focus everything on two or three major characters, which is why Anduin, Jaina, and Greymane have such major roles while Alleria, Turalyon, Velen, or Muradin haven't done jackshit in this expansion. I can't imagine them giving equal attention to every leader of the Alliance.
    Equal attention isn't needed.. but if we know that a certain character is good for a certain thing, we know the character is being called upon when needed.
    Now it seems like the Humans got it all and don't need any help.

  10. #10
    The Lightbringer
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    Other Alliance leaders? Tyrande's 100% going to become a villain because the Horde's going to 'totally not be evil anymore FOR REALSIES THIS TIME' and she's going to have had enough of that shit and be portrayed as a bad guy for doing so. Greymane's going to die or become a villain with Tyrande. Mekkatorque is irrelevant and, given that he did nothing during the only Gnome content the game has ever had outside of the Gnomer Reclamation event nobody remembers, will stay irrelevant. Moira brought the Dark Irons in and while they're awesome, they aren't doing shit besides being different-looking NPCs in quests and shit. Velen had his moment giving Illidan finger guns and going to Argus and as disappointing as that shitshow was, it was the highpoint of his character. Even in the fucking Draenor expansion, his alt version gave a few quests and died. Draenei had a chance with Yrel getting interesting development but this will amount to nothing because she's a good and Light-aligned character. Good vs Evil is not something that exists in Blizzard writing because 'good guys' have to be edgy/goofy/pacifist and 'bad guys' get away with heaps of shit all the time.

    Last of all there's Alleria and Turalyon which is going to come up again during the Light vs Void thing where the Light will inevitably be played up to be 'totally just as bad' despite it very clearly being retarded and Void being 'totally good because Void-aligned characters backstab each other and act in self-interest occasionally'. They will either be neutral, softcocks or die uselessly to create drama. Khadgar's gonna come back and not be Alliance. Magni isn't Alliance anymore either, obviously and Jaina's getting that green dick again so she's out of the picture too.

    To sum it up, there simply isn't any Alliance leadership to draw upon. It's all Anduin all the time and the only development you're going to get is him being a pussy again so you better accept it. The Light vs Void shit's coming and you better believe that he's going to be front and center of that trainwreck and just watch as despite being a priest of the fucking Light he is the most timid and softcocked member of it. If they actually make his balls drop and he starts doing shit, I will actually forgive them the lore travesties they have committed because I'd give anything to have a Light character actually fucking win just once and there's no way they'll get off Anduin's dick so he'll have to win.
    Paladin Bash has spoken.

  11. #11
    I have to add one thing.

    Warcraft's number of IMMORTAL races is fucking ridiculous. You cannot swing your dick without hitting some chick that has lived for 3-4 millenia. Night Elves were magically immortal; OK that worked because of it being a blessing from the aspects. Then we get the original night elves being effectively immortal or at least living for multiple centuries (yet millenia old Illidan still acts like a teenager in the friendzone because that makes sense). Then the Draenei are also living for millenia for some reason, and then the blood elves also live for 3-4 millenia because why not.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Hanibuhl View Post
    This is true.. although they did feel the need to inform him.
    And so they should have. Not as the High King but as an ally. Leaders should keep each other informed of what's going on.

    That isn't to say I completely disagree with your point. I think it would be interesting if for example the Gnomes were closer to the Dwarves in a similar way that the Worgen and Night elf sort of form a 'bloc'. And if the low population races like the Pandaren and some of the Allied races sort of banded together in a bloc of their own.

    And it isn't helped by the fact that BFA is coming across less as a faction war than a Horde-Horde civil war. That makes the Alliance look even more monolithic by comparison.
    Last edited by JonTargaryen; 2019-08-14 at 12:12 PM.
    Higgledy-piggledy Lord Wyman Manderly
    Sups with his foes, leaving Nary a crumb.

    Wolvering wolverenes Incontrovertibly
    Tell all who hearken that Winter is come.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Hanibuhl View Post
    Oh I must've missed that topic! Thanks! Interesting read!
    I get your point, but you'd think that with a big RPG, a lot of stuff can be explored storywise....
    Don't get me wrong, I agree with you totally. The Alliance should focus far less on humans and be a bunch of different agendas. They have the tools to do it. It's just that writing for one archetype and value system is far easier. Hence this expansion sanding off the edges of both factions.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinBash View Post
    Other Alliance leaders? Tyrande's 100% going to become a villain because the Horde's going to 'totally not be evil anymore FOR REALSIES THIS TIME' and she's going to have had enough of that shit and be portrayed as a bad guy for doing so. Greymane's going to die or become a villain with Tyrande. Mekkatorque is irrelevant and, given that he did nothing during the only Gnome content the game has ever had outside of the Gnomer Reclamation event nobody remembers, will stay irrelevant. Moira brought the Dark Irons in and while they're awesome, they aren't doing shit besides being different-looking NPCs in quests and shit. Velen had his moment giving Illidan finger guns and going to Argus and as disappointing as that shitshow was, it was the highpoint of his character. Even in the fucking Draenor expansion, his alt version gave a few quests and died. Draenei had a chance with Yrel getting interesting development but this will amount to nothing because she's a good and Light-aligned character. Good vs Evil is not something that exists in Blizzard writing because 'good guys' have to be edgy/goofy/pacifist and 'bad guys' get away with heaps of shit all the time.

    Last of all there's Alleria and Turalyon which is going to come up again during the Light vs Void thing where the Light will inevitably be played up to be 'totally just as bad' despite it very clearly being retarded and Void being 'totally good because Void-aligned characters backstab each other and act in self-interest occasionally'. They will either be neutral, softcocks or die uselessly to create drama. Khadgar's gonna come back and not be Alliance. Magni isn't Alliance anymore either, obviously and Jaina's getting that green dick again so she's out of the picture too.

    To sum it up, there simply isn't any Alliance leadership to draw upon. It's all Anduin all the time and the only development you're going to get is him being a pussy again so you better accept it. The Light vs Void shit's coming and you better believe that he's going to be front and center of that trainwreck and just watch as despite being a priest of the fucking Light he is the most timid and softcocked member of it. If they actually make his balls drop and he starts doing shit, I will actually forgive them the lore travesties they have committed because I'd give anything to have a Light character actually fucking win just once and there's no way they'll get off Anduin's dick so he'll have to win.
    Yeah but it's that because of how it's written now? In theory, these characters all have some potential...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I have to add one thing.

    Warcraft's number of IMMORTAL races is fucking ridiculous. You cannot swing your dick without hitting some chick that has lived for 3-4 millenia. Night Elves were magically immortal; OK that worked because of it being a blessing from the aspects. Then we get the original night elves being effectively immortal or at least living for multiple centuries (yet millenia old Illidan still acts like a teenager in the friendzone because that makes sense). Then the Draenei are also living for millenia for some reason, and then the blood elves also live for 3-4 millenia because why not.
    Yeah, hence my confusion why a young race gets all the shine. You'd think that after thousands of years, you'd have a lot of stuff to teach a 40-year old...?

    Quote Originally Posted by JonTargaryen View Post
    And so they should have. Not as the High King but as an ally. Leaders should keep each other informed of what's going on.

    That isn't to say I completely disagree with your point. I think it would be interesting if for example the Gnomes were closer to the Dwarves in a similar way that the Worgen and Night elf sort of form a 'bloc'. And if the low population races like the Pandaren and some of the Allied races sort of banded together in a bloc of their own.

    And it isn't helped by the fact that BFA is coming across less as a faction war than a Horde-Horde civil war. That makes the Alliance look even more monolithic by comparison.
    Yeah you're right.
    And I would love to see this :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I agree with you totally. The Alliance should focus far less on humans and be a bunch of different agendas. They have the tools to do it. It's just that writing for one archetype and value system is far easier. Hence this expansion sanding off the edges of both factions.
    Are you implying they're building towards a uni-faction or just focus on 1 race to make it easier to swallow?

  15. #15
    The Lightbringer Soon-TM's Avatar
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    I honestly hope that BfA is the last expansion with a heavy focus on the faction war. Writers have proven, time and time again, that they cannot write anything decent when it comes to AvH - to the point that they end up irritating Horde AND Alliance fans alike.

    It isn't a coincidence that the SW king as "blue Warchief" was introduced almost at the same time that Horde was turned into ZomG tEh lULevIL FucTiOn.
    "The heart of the Horde" = Alliance-approved Horde

  16. #16
    Because blizz wanted a rival for Garrosh's story and they chose Varian, really.

    Oh and, thanks to their short mortality, humans are a very varied and active race that is first to take action blablabla terrible fantasy trope

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Hanibuhl View Post
    Are you implying they're building towards a uni-faction or just focus on 1 race to make it easier to swallow?
    An in-story unifaction is the end goal of this expansion. I doubt the actual factions will be abolished in a gameplay sense, past cross-faction grouping in the newest content, but all will be united under Anduin and have effectively the same ethos going into the next one. Barring some ridiculous out of left field turn.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  18. #18
    I definitely liked the meeting with Genn and Tyrande actually disagreeing with Anduin. We need more racial leaders of the alliance making significant decisions.

    Genn and the captain in Stormheim going off Anduin's orders to ambush the forsaken in Stormheim was also cool. Anything that shows that the Alliance isn't some perfectly cohesive unit falling in line behind Anduin, but individual races with their own motivations who Anduin is tasked with convincing to work together.

    Everyone likes Anduin, but does everyone respect Anduin? That I think is an important part of his growth as a character to have explored.

  19. #19
    A bit off-tangent but you did raise that topic in the OP: the humans aren't really that young. They've been around for 15k years. It's just that they're so pathetic that they achieved jack shit for stark majority of their existence and crawled out of the mud they waddled in only when High Elves taught them magic. And even then other than stealing land from Troll Empires past their expiration date continued being unimpressive until present day. Where Stormwind, the crappiest kingdom of the human bunch that got decimated three times in less than a century leading to the present somehow became a global power because Blizzard sucks at everything.

  20. #20
    The Lightbringer Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Everyone likes Anduin, but does everyone respect Anduin? That I think is an important part of his growth as a character to have explored.
    I have the strong feeling that hardliners in SW pay lip service to Manduin just because he's dumb as a brick and thus easy to manipulate. Now, if you aren't a human, you are just SoL... Just ask Tyrande.
    "The heart of the Horde" = Alliance-approved Horde

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