Ideal size of a PUG raid?

[Sorgesh]

Hello!

I recently came back to WoW and I'm planning to do the new Eternal Palace raid. I want to make my own PUGs tho because that always helped me when it comes to doing M+ with random people.

1. What is the ideal size of a PUG for Eternal Palace? How many players and how many tanks/healers/dps?

2. What is the recommended item level for Normal mode of Eternal Palace? With what item level should I invite people?

3. Same question regarding Heroic version - what is the recommended item level and with what ilvl should I invite people?

Thank you all for answers. Have a nice day!

[Boricha]

2 tanks, 3 healers, 9 dps seems to be the popular setup. I would do 405+ for normal and 420+ for heroic.

[Johnmatrix]

2/3/9 and 2/4/14 are commonly seen, but it's just people repeating something they think is the best. You can crank in more dps in both scenarios and make it a lot faster and thus easier. You just need healers that aren't terrible.

[ZazuuPriest]

if youre gonna be a pug leader you need to let everyone know you will and are willing to kick underperformers otherwise any competent person especially healer and tanks will leave.

that being said 2-3-9 is common but i almost always prefer 2-3-10 so long as that extra dps is good, if theyre shit you might as well be 9 dps plus 14or15 people are easier to manage than 20

[KOUNTERPARTS]

I generally prefer 2 tanks, 4 healers, 12 damage dealers. Really anything between 18 - 20 people is my ideal size and seems to not only be big enough to carry slightly weaker DPS but also in my experience just get shit done. 2/3/9 seems to be what people prefer though.

[brewclaw]

My experience has been to build as large a raid as you can handle. If you can manage the people and calling the mechanics, then larger raids can weather trouble better than smaller raids.

[Demeia]

My experience has been to build as large a raid as you can handle. If you can manage the people and calling the mechanics, then larger raids can weather trouble better than smaller raids.

I play in a pretty average small-ish raid and if you are going to pug, you should probably bring as many people as you can. Blizzard is total crap at scaling mechanics. I'd try to get as close to 20 as I could, the folks who come up with 18 are probably right. We're a guild (a bad one) and we have lots of trouble with scaling mechanics.

[Sageless]

Also make sure you have 1 or 2 warlocks in your group to allow for summoning replacements for underperformers / leavers.
Without a warlock you will likely be waiting for people to arrive between bosses and this will result in people going afk / leaving, resulting in even longer wait times.

As for raid size, I would start with a large group allowing you to weed out people without having to find replacements between pulls. Going for a 30 man raid would be difficult to manage so I would aim for a group with 2 tanks, 4 healers, 14 dps, which you can downgrade to 2 tanks, 3 healers, 10 dps without having to get new people in if you see people underperforming.

[Ange]

Nobody cared at all about raid sizes till Blizzard introduced the hard caps for additional mechanics for a fixed amount of people in the raid. This is what happens when everything is tested for max-raid-size and flex raid got introduced with zero tests to boss mechanics.

Much, much later it was changed many times over and new raid mechanics are somewhat allready made with flex in mind, but the community is burned and the old MECHANICAL CAPS like 2/3/9 are set in stone even years later.

Optimal for a speed/overgear run would be 1-1.5/1-1.5/XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX. Since 2/3/9 = the tanks are not able to or capable to solo tank, the heal/raid ratio is similar to progression, that means the healers are as bad as it gets and you hope your DPS will carry. But thats not how it works.

Copy&Paste half decade old raid-compositions for no reason is just as lemmings jumping off the cliff.

[Zarvel]

Nobody cared at all about raid sizes till Blizzard introduced the hard caps for additional mechanics for a fixed amount of people in the raid. This is what happens when everything is tested for max-raid-size and flex raid got introduced with zero tests to boss mechanics.

Much, much later it was changed many times over and new raid mechanics are somewhat allready made with flex in mind, but the community is burned and the old MECHANICAL CAPS like 2/3/9 are set in stone even years later.

Optimal for a speed/overgear run would be 1-1.5/1-1.5/XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX. Since 2/3/9 = the tanks are not able to or capable to solo tank, the heal/raid ratio is similar to progression, that means the healers are as bad as it gets and you hope your DPS will carry. But thats not how it works.

Copy&Paste half decade old raid-compositions for no reason is just as lemmings jumping off the cliff.

I'd like some of what you're smoking right now.

As for the OP, I've seen 2/3/10 and 2/4/14 go the smoothest, and it's a good healer-to-group ratio. However, 2/3/10 only works if you have less than 2 underperforming dps. Any more than that and you'll be in trouble of not being able to cope with any hard dps or mechanic checks.
Also, ignore the rants from people about set raid sizes in a flex environment. Those numbers are thought of for a reason. Also ignore any bigotry and unrealistic numbers like 1/2/12 or 2/2/12 since you cannot expect every tank or healer in a PuG environment to be god tier and carry the group. It's best to even out the weight or pressure.

[Ange]

As for the OP, I've seen 2/3/10 and 2/4/14 go the smoothest, and it's a good healer-to-group ratio. However, 2/3/10 only works if you have less than 2 underperforming dps. Any more than that and you'll be in trouble of not being able to cope with any hard dps or mechanic checks.
Also, ignore the rants from people about set raid sizes in a flex environment. Those numbers are thought of for a reason. Also ignore any bigotry and unrealistic numbers like 1/2/12 or 2/2/12 since you cannot expect every tank or healer in a PuG environment to be god tier and carry the group. It's best to even out the weight or pressure.

I can only guess, but I think you were not invited to the LEGION ~2h world-tour-raids.

[Zarvel]

I can only guess, but I think you were not invited to the LEGION ~2h world-tour-raids.

You mean those 30man ones that go through slightly older content, like 1 tier or raid down from current content? Cuz no sane person pugs heroic raids with a 30-man group unless it's on the penultimate or final bosses where kills are easier with a max sized group.
Bosses where 30man raids shined were Archimonde, Cenarius, Elisande, Gul'dan, Avatar, KJ, Aggramar, Argus and all of Uldir. I don't see any other bosses where going gung-ho with 30man size groups was of benefit. Full groups have the drawback of long ass execute phases, where if you have under-performers, you're screwed.
Not to mention, it's easier to replace groups in a 15man raid than a 30man if people begin leaving in droves for some reason.

I hope that's what you meant by the world tour raids, else I just went off on a long-ass tangent lol.

[horbindr]

i haven't had any issues in eternal palace with going above 20. (other than some people get fps issues here and there). there just aren't any mechanics that really penalize large groups.

never ever go below 15 people. you will still get 3 of every mechanic, interrupt heavy fights have to go perfect, the dps to tank/healer balance becomes wonky, etc. raids just aren't designed for 10 people anymore.

[Nnyco]

Fill it up to the brim, more people = less problematic a fuck up.

[Dziubla]

While technically people are correct that with bigger groups every fuck up is less harmful, there's also the other side of the coin, which is more people = more retards. I had much better experience with smaller raids than I had with bigger ones. Though you can't go too small, since Blizzard can't scale mechanics, so probably nothing smaller than 2/3/10, at least during the first few weeks. After that 2/2/6 works just as well, if everyone has a brain and some gear.

[quite an expert in wow]

20-30 people is ideal in my eyes

[Sangfoudre]

In guild, we run from 15 to 25. Some bosses are imho easier with more people. In flex, some capacities may target a fixed number of player (radiance, Ashvane, Za'Qul), and the more people the better.
If I had to create a PUG raid, I'll take as many people as possible as it lessen individual errors.

[Eapoe]

Ideal size depends on the boss. Some bosses are easier with more, some with less. What you should be looking at is how many mdps vs rdps you want to fill those spots as raids tend to favor more rdps than melee.
That said, I tend to see pugs have around 12-17 members, sometimes going up to the full amount if people have gear and achievements. Keep in mind that with the full amount that those raid leaders tend to kick people that aren’t pulling their weight.

[Muajin76]

Hello!

I recently came back to WoW and I'm planning to do the new Eternal Palace raid. I want to make my own PUGs tho because that always helped me when it comes to doing M+ with random people.

1. What is the ideal size of a PUG for Eternal Palace? How many players and how many tanks/healers/dps?

2. What is the recommended item level for Normal mode of Eternal Palace? With what item level should I invite people?

3. Same question regarding Heroic version - what is the recommended item level and with what ilvl should I invite people?

Thank you all for answers. Have a nice day!

I don't think there is any ideal size of a pug raid. Either you're doing it with 3/4 guild members and pug the rest or you have a pug group consisting of players from different guilds. Prime example if this was the Anzacs raiding group.