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  1. #1

    Unhappy Blizzard hates the players

    Blizzard, not only hates the players, but sees them as hopeless addicts. Proof is time gating and awards locked behind mindless rep grinds, like flying.

    Back in WoD, a vocal minority complained about lack of content. This content drought they were talking about had nothing to do with quests, or storyline or lore, but mostly to do with there not having a next tier raid and pvp progression that did not go on for several months without anything in sight to look forward to. They also took a huge risk with a completely new system, garrison and missions, which the players were not used to and did not expect to turn out the way it did.

    BfA would be tolerable if they would:

    1. Change flying requirement from revered to honored, this means the players would have cleared, at least three times, the new zones.
    2. Make the heart of azeroth progression account wide so that people could have a chance at playing an alt or changing mains without totally burning out
    3. Once everyone has flying, they could at least start to have fun with unlocking the allied races that should have been given to them anyway, but this grind is not as bad as the above two.
    4. If they want BfA to really feel like a war between the factions, warfronts should have been a player versus player versus environment, which would have made it a lot more interesting than its current mindless state.
    5. Make islands a decent source of XP, besides making the heart of azeroth progress account wide, would make this a fun time sink for players with lots of alts, as opposed to a mindless time sink like in 1 and 2 above.

    All the players are asking for is to have fun while wasting their time, not to feel like shit.
    Last edited by RemasteredClassic; 2019-08-18 at 01:42 AM.

  2. #2
    Thank you for your input.

  3. #3
    I guess you are 15 years to soon

  4. #4
    The Lightbringer Niwes's Avatar
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    its dead simple:

    copy pasted WQs, cheap grind shit and recycled content is WAY cheaper than designing (gfx and encounter mechanics), balancing and testing new raids and dungeons.

    its called cost effective development. put in least possible effort/money while try to get most out of it (mostly via smart cash grab systems like token, services, etc).

    simple as that. end of story.

  5. #5
    i dont think this one belongs in the classic forum
    <Formality> of Proudmoore 13/13M -- US 26 MW Monk
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by RemasteredClassic View Post
    Back in WoD
    Quote Originally Posted by RemasteredClassic View Post
    BfA would be tolerable
    Quote Originally Posted by RemasteredClassic View Post
    1. Change flying requirement

    I have no idea what he's talking about. "Flying"? He must be from the future

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    its dead simple:

    copy pasted WQs, cheap grind shit and recycled content is WAY cheaper than designing (gfx and encounter mechanics), balancing and testing new raids and dungeons.

    its called cost effective development. put in least possible effort/money while try to get most out of it (mostly via smart cash grab systems like token, services, etc).

    simple as that. end of story.

    The things mentioned in my post are all more cost effective than the current state BfA is in. And on top of that, it would make the game more fun, players happier.

  8. #8
    What does any of that have to do with Classic?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    its dead simple:

    copy pasted WQs, cheap grind shit and recycled content is WAY cheaper than designing (gfx and encounter mechanics), balancing and testing new raids and dungeons.

    its called cost effective development. put in least possible effort/money while try to get most out of it (mostly via smart cash grab systems like token, services, etc).

    simple as that. end of story.
    But they literally have both of the things you are comparing, which makes your point pretty much irrelevant.

  10. #10
    The Lightbringer Niwes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RemasteredClassic View Post
    The things mentioned in my post are all more cost effective than the current state BfA is in. And on top of that, it would make the game more fun, players happier.
    well, so let me comment your points, so you maybe realize blizz not searches for happier players:

    1. Change flying requirement from revered to honored, this means the players would have cleared, at least three times, the new zones.
    - Means ppl have less carrot on a stick, earlier can do things faster, are earlier „done“, and maybe earlier do not pay blizz.

    2. Make the heart of azeroth progression account wide so that people could have a chance at playing an alt or changing mains without totally burning out
    - but BEFORE they are totally burned out, they invested a lot of time in it and kept paying subs, were maybe lead to boosts ($$) for alts, to minimize even that effort and made the world feel „alive“, whats good for other players, whats also $$$ bling bling. because empty world drives players away.

    3. Once everyone has flying, they could at least start to have fun with unlocking the allied races that should have been given to them anyway, but this grind is not as bad as the above two.
    - ok.

    4. If they want BfA to really feel like a war between the factions, warfronts should have been a player versus player versus environment, which would have made it a lot more interesting than its current mindless state.
    - grab a lot of brain dead LFR players in a carrot on a stick „once in a while you get that fat epic if you just run around for another half n hour here“ makes way more money than contributing to the small pvp crowd.

    5. Make islands a decent source of XP, besides making the heart of azeroth progress account wide, would make this a fun time sink for players with lots of alts, as opposed to a mindless time sink like in 1 and 2 above.
    - same as point 1. if ppl are faster through content you and i would love it to have time for pvp or alts or achievements or whatever. but many other ppl, with just 1 main and no interests in pvp COULD maybe loose interest (which in reality is just dopamin driven carrot on a stick behaviour) and quit. so blizz better goes the grind hell way, keeping players on the dope, because of more .... i assume you got it ... $$ bling bling.

    do not get me wrong here. i would LOVE it to have time again for alts, not repeating all that shit (it is nearly impossible) or have time to pvp or achievement hunting or whatever. even when classic has horrible class mechanics i will play it just because if i have done the raid i am done for the week and can play competitive alts. also we again can switch mains between tiers, without falling back and have to grind again a million AP, essences, and whatever. so, i am totally in your boat. BUT... blizzard showed clearly what their target is. and we are NOT.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    But they literally have both of the things you are comparing, which makes your point pretty much irrelevant.
    ofc they have. my point is: filling gaps with cheap shit and using grinds, AP, essences, etc. as carrot on a stick, is WAY more cheap (and repeatable) than adding more raids and dungeons. you just have to realize that we do not get a new 1-2dungeons in every bigger patch (lets say 8.1, 8.2, 8.3 ...). instead, we always get „cheap to implement“ systems like manapearls, essences, grinding rep for flying, etc. it just has more effeciency investment/profit wise than adding raids,dungeons, and bgs all the time.and yes, i KNOW that with 8.2 they delivered mechagon and a raid. but mechagon will stay the only dungeon they added in BfA. like rehashed recycled kharazhan was in Legion. Rest is filled with „systems“. Because they are cheap. Thats all i say.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2019-08-18 at 10:53 AM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by RemasteredClassic View Post
    ...
    4. If they want BfA to really feel like a war between the factions, warfronts should have been a player versus player versus environment, which would have made it a lot more interesting than its current mindless state.
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    ...
    4. If they want BfA to really feel like a war between the factions, warfronts should have been a player versus player versus environment, which would have made it a lot more interesting than its current mindless state.
    - grab a lot of brain dead LFR players in a carrot on a stick „once in a while you get that fat epic if you just run around for another half n hour here“ makes way more money than contributing to the small pvp crowd.[I]
    ...
    I only want to commenton this specific bullet, both from the OP and this response.

    Imho, Warfronts were an attempt to create LFR without any wait times because there are no roles. This directly explaines why there is no PvP mode: In current WoW ~80% of active players play Horde. PvP Warfronts wpuld have had longer Q-times than LFR, because if you would lose ~50% of them (which would be the most desirable outcome you can possibly ever get in PvP) a lot of people would be put off. So they would have had to include mercenary mode as a necessecity...but then Horde players would have felt forced into it because the hour-long-Q-times would actually have shown them 100% unmistakenly how fucked up the ratio of active endgame-players in current WoW actually is.

    So, long story short: There is no PvP mode because of the extreme faction imbalance at active lvl120 players. It would have turned this "faction war" (which is no faction war) into even more of a clown show if Horde players would have to play the Alliance side of warfronts all the time simply to get into it.

    As for the LFR vs PvP Warfront argument: LFR is arguably dead in BFA. have you checked the Q-times recently? If you cannot do it at the start of the week or are forced to play at off hours, LFR has been removed from the game in BFA. Nobody is doing it. It's simply not worth it without tier sets. At the same time, nobody i actively know in the game likes warfronts...or does them ANYWHERE near the level they did LFR on Alts in previous expansions. Yes, LFR is brain-dead content...or raiding for Alts if you simply don't want to PUG (which there are plenty of very valid reasons for)...but it still was content you could actually "play". Warfronts are a wait-time forced uppon you by the game. For the largets part of the warfront you are NOT playing and whatever you feel like you are "contributing" is completely meaningless and could jkust as well be spend jumping up and down at the respawn area. Warfronts are AFK-time. That is not content.

    Imho, a much better solution would have been to convert LFR into content without roles by very simple changes to the encounters (e.g. if there are no tanks in the group, the guy who has aggro takes 80% reduced damage; all of the "tank-debuffs" are simply disabled in LFR; if your group has few/no healers, there is a self-healing-aura active in the zone which gets stronger or weaker depending on how many healers there are etc.) - it would have been worth trying, at least, imho...that way Blizzard could have spared us from the horrible warfronts, keep the raid more relevant and actually have meaningful items dropping in the raid; not just LFR, all difficulties. Because right now, we are on a good way to completely remove raiding from WoW - wich creates TONS of problems for many systems in the game. And we are replacing it with Warfronts (whichnobody likes) and M+, which is content designed for 5-6 out of 36 specs in the game.
    Last edited by Nathasil; 2019-08-18 at 11:15 AM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    mechagon will stay the only dungeon they added in BfA. like rehashed recycled kharazhan was in Legion.
    Cathedral of Eternal Night says hi.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by RemasteredClassic View Post
    Blizzard, not only hates the players, but sees them as hopeless addicts. Proof is time gating and awards locked behind mindless rep grinds, like flying.

    Back in WoD, a vocal minority complained about lack of content. This content drought they were talking about had nothing to do with quests, or storyline or lore, but mostly to do with there not having a next tier raid and pvp progression that did not go on for several months without anything in sight to look forward to. They also took a huge risk with a completely new system, garrison and missions, which the players were not used to and did not expect to turn out the way it did.

    BfA would be tolerable if they would:

    1. Change flying requirement from revered to honored, this means the players would have cleared, at least three times, the new zones.
    2. Make the heart of azeroth progression account wide so that people could have a chance at playing an alt or changing mains without totally burning out
    3. Once everyone has flying, they could at least start to have fun with unlocking the allied races that should have been given to them anyway, but this grind is not as bad as the above two.
    4. If they want BfA to really feel like a war between the factions, warfronts should have been a player versus player versus environment, which would have made it a lot more interesting than its current mindless state.
    5. Make islands a decent source of XP, besides making the heart of azeroth progress account wide, would make this a fun time sink for players with lots of alts, as opposed to a mindless time sink like in 1 and 2 above.

    All the players are asking for is to have fun while wasting their time, not to feel like shit.
    Point one doesn't really make any sense because the game is giving you much more rep now for the new required reps than it did even at the launch of the game to make up for the lack of emissaries

    Example being Mecca rep was increased by about 25%

    I agree with point 2 I don't think that you should have to re unlock essences

    the allied race unlock grind isn't really a grind because it just requires you to play through the game which you would do anyways if you unlock flying because once you unlock flying you've essentially unlocked every allied race other than the races from the previous expansion which I agree should have the requirements lifted

    .4 could be solved by just adding a PVP option to it but then it would just be a constant grind that even readers would use and if you don't want a mindless warfront just do heroic.

    .5 was actually nerfed because it was giving way too much experience at one point because islands are a mindless grind more so than anything else if you go in there just to level trust me I experienced it with three characters

    blizzard doesn't hate its players it's just they have a hard time admitting defeat when systems that they have don't turn out how they hoped an example of this is their response to the player complaints about azerite armor in the mythic plus cash early on in the expansion when they told the players that it's how it always worked and they should get used to it only to later have to create an entirely new system because they realize that the players were right and they were wrong

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post

    but mechagon will stay the only dungeon they added in BfA. like rehashed recycled kharazhan was in Legion. Rest is filled with „systems“. Because they are cheap. Thats all i say.
    Cathedral of Eternal Night? Seat of the Triumvirate? you conveniently forget them?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RemasteredClassic View Post
    snip
    wrong forum bro. this forum is for classic, you want general discussion

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    ofc they have. my point is: filling gaps with cheap shit and using grinds, AP, essences, etc. as carrot on a stick, is WAY more cheap (and repeatable) than adding more raids and dungeons. you just have to realize that we do not get a new 1-2dungeons in every bigger patch (lets say 8.1, 8.2, 8.3 ...). instead, we always get „cheap to implement“ systems like manapearls, essences, grinding rep for flying, etc. it just has more effeciency investment/profit wise than adding raids,dungeons, and bgs all the time.and yes, i KNOW that with 8.2 they delivered mechagon and a raid. but mechagon will stay the only dungeon they added in BfA. like rehashed recycled kharazhan was in Legion. Rest is filled with „systems“. Because they are cheap. Thats all i say.
    I prefer new systems like Manapearls and Essences and such over the old system of adding 2 new dungeons and not much else, that became irrelevant after a few weeks of the patch. At least new systems keep some relevance for a while and the Mythic+ system has made other Dungeons more relevant throughout the Expansions.

    I can't really think of any post-launch Dungeons since Vanilla that were actually that great that they were worth pouring a bunch of resources into vs a system that can last a whole patch.

    Even things like Halls of Reflection or Trial of the Crusader 5 mans were cool for like maybe 1-2 runs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    Cathedral of Eternal Night? Seat of the Triumvirate? you conveniently forget them?
    Of course he is, since he needs to whine about something and it's hard to do that if you actually follow facts.

  16. #16
    The Lightbringer Niwes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathasil View Post
    I only want to commenton this specific bullet, both from the OP and this response.

    Imho, Warfronts were an attempt to create LFR without any wait times because there are no roles. This directly explaines why there is no PvP mode: In current WoW ~80% of active players play Horde. PvP Warfronts wpuld have had longer Q-times than LFR, because if you would lose ~50% of them (which would be the most desirable outcome you can possibly ever get in PvP) a lot of people would be put off. So they would have had to include mercenary mode as a necessecity...but then Horde players would have felt forced into it because the hour-long-Q-times would actually have shown them 100% unmistakenly how fucked up the ratio of active endgame-players in current WoW actually is.

    So, long story short: There is no PvP mode because of the extreme faction imbalance at active lvl120 players. It would have turned this "faction war" (which is no faction war) into even more of a clown show if Horde players would have to play the Alliance side of warfronts all the time simply to get into it.

    As for the LFR vs PvP Warfront argument: LFR is arguably dead in BFA. have you checked the Q-times recently? If you cannot do it at the start of the week or are forced to play at off hours, LFR has been removed from the game in BFA. Nobody is doing it. It's simply not worth it without tier sets. At the same time, nobody i actively know in the game likes warfronts...or does them ANYWHERE near the level they did LFR on Alts in previous expansions. Yes, LFR is brain-dead content...or raiding for Alts if you simply don't want to PUG (which there are plenty of very valid reasons for)...but it still was content you could actually "play". Warfronts are a wait-time forced uppon you by the game. For the largets part of the warfront you are NOT playing and whatever you feel like you are "contributing" is completely meaningless and could jkust as well be spend jumping up and down at the respawn area. Warfronts are AFK-time. That is not content.

    Imho, a much better solution would have been to convert LFR into content without roles by very simple changes to the encounters (e.g. if there are no tanks in the group, the guy who has aggro takes 80% reduced damage; all of the "tank-debuffs" are simply disabled in LFR; if your group has few/no healers, there is a self-healing-aura active in the zone which gets stronger or weaker depending on how many healers there are etc.) - it would have been worth trying, at least, imho...that way Blizzard could have spared us from the horrible warfronts, keep the raid more relevant and actually have meaningful items dropping in the raid; not just LFR, all difficulties. Because right now, we are on a good way to completely remove raiding from WoW - wich creates TONS of problems for many systems in the game. And we are replacing it with Warfronts (whichnobody likes) and M+, which is content designed for 5-6 out of 36 specs in the game.
    i know more than 40 ppl saying exactly your mid part about lfr. i can not remember myself how often my alts, or chars forced to do LFR, were on follow and completely boss fight afk (pressed move forward every 1-2mins or so), while i coded for work (i am sw dev) on desktop. so, thats that. isnt life funny

    imo both is useless dumb cheap shit. they can remove lfr and warfronts from the game and i do not care a bit.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2019-08-23 at 04:45 AM.

  17. #17
    I don't really think any of your fixes would fix BFA for me. Classes are still horrible even if I would've got flying sooner. Nazjatar and Mechagon are still uninspired messes with or without flying. WQs are still lazy, Warfronts would be more fun but Islands would still make me want to die. I'd have to do fewer of them since alts wouldn't need them at least. Allied Races are still largely corrupt-a-wish bullshit regardless of how fast you get them.

    M+ and raiding are carrying the xpac and only just barely.

  18. #18
    The cynic in me says that every company hates their customers, at least if they are honest about it. I know I certainly hate most of ours'.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    simple as that. end of story.
    I agree, but my question is who are all these people that like this bottom barrel gameplay enough to be satisfied with it and stay subbed? If raids didn't exist, I'd be gone. Hell, when they mess enough stuff up to the point it starts severely affecting my desires around raids, I leave. Who are the people just gobbling up WQs and all this other faceroll crap that actually enjoy being monkeys in front of keyboards without having to use their brain?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    The cynic in me says that every company hates their customers, at least if they are honest about it. I know I certainly hate most of ours'.
    True enough. It's been a running gag in my company for years that our work would be a lot easier without those pesky customers getting in the way.

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