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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    No, that's good design. Not making it worthwhile to do burnout farming is the point. You can still work towards your goal, it just isn't the best path to do it mindlessly grinding.
    The best path being to log in for 1hour a day then log off and play another game... Waiting for the goal to come to you... Honestly without a grind the goal doesnt feel satisying at all.
    "My brother thinks I'm crazy to play the same game for years. He doesn't understand. I plan to play it for the rest of my life."

  2. #102
    this text ofc. does not make you vocal minority. Not at all! Everyone thinks like that. I do understand forums are for discussions, but you are not asking questions, you just created a shitty post with shitty title of "i wANt wOW mY WAy!!!!"

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    No offense, but that's basically BS.

    Of course you get to work towards your goals. Do you honestly believe that things like AotC or Cutting Edge will just "come to you like some kind of damn handout"? They won't. You have to actively work towards them if you want to get them.

    As I already said, you're ignoring the fact that the value of rewards are closely tied to how quickly you can get them. I mean, sure, you could just arb around and wait for AK to make it trivial to hit your next Heart of Azeroth level. You could wait for the next tier so that you can go and clear the previous raid on mythic. But if those are your goals, that has nothing to do with the game or it's systems and you have only yourself to blame for any feelings you may have of the game feeling like a handout.

    If, on the other hand, you want to be a cutting edge raider, the game demands that you work for it. You're going to have to put in a lot more effort to get your Heart of Azeroth 5 levels ahead of the casual crowd. And you're going to have to keep up that effort to stay ahead. In return though, you're going to have the means to tackle the content, and reap the rewards that are only available to an exclusive group of the most committed players in the game.
    IM talking about AP. Wich my post was pretty damn clear in specifying. So why you are suddenly talking about raid acheivs ive no idea. But dont worry, those a actually do work towards.

    As for getting the rewards earlier, ive never denied thats the case. What my point was wich flew right over your head is that the curve of a 30% exponential increase per week is TOO DAMN STEEP. To the point of me deciding to wait 4 weeks into this patch be4 i did my "island grind" of 250 islands to get rank 65. And thats what bothers me, the fact that i didnt feel the grind worth it the first 4 weeks because the goal was so unrealisticly far away without those weekly 30% increases. I wouldve much preferd to play 60 extra islands per week in addition to clearing the worldmap of ap WQ's than to have to wait around and do it the last possible weeks due to a stupide overtuned catchup mechanic.
    "My brother thinks I'm crazy to play the same game for years. He doesn't understand. I plan to play it for the rest of my life."

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Hottage View Post
    2. With Artifact Knowledge as high as it is, grinding a fresh level 120's neck up to something vaguely decent isn't that difficult at all, by the time you're 120 you should already be close to level 15 or so, and just grinding dungeons will bring you up to the mid thirties before you're geared enough to do anywhere that the neck even matters.
    Just doing the Essence unlock quest will automagically put it at 35 anyway. Any grinding before that is wasted.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    IM talking about AP. Wich my post was pretty damn clear in specifying. So why you are suddenly talking about raid acheivs ive no idea. But dont worry, those a actually do work towards.

    As for getting the rewards earlier, ive never denied thats the case. What my point was wich flew right over your head is that the curve of a 30% exponential increase per week is TOO DAMN STEEP. To the point of me deciding to wait 4 weeks into this patch be4 i did my "island grind" of 250 islands to get rank 65. And thats what bothers me, the fact that i didnt feel the grind worth it the first 4 weeks because the goal was so unrealisticly far away without those weekly 30% increases. I wouldve much preferd to play 60 extra islands per week in addition to clearing the worldmap of ap WQ's than to have to wait around and do it the last possible weeks due to a stupide overtuned catchup mechanic.
    And you could have done that, and still gotten ahead of where you are now. The system is working perfectly fine, you're just unhappy it doesn't support your specific desires.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    And you could have done that, and still gotten ahead of where you are now. The system is working perfectly fine, you're just unhappy it doesn't support your specific desires.
    actually, no. 250 islands spread out on 5 weeks gives ALOT less ap than doing 250 islands the last week of these 5. In order to get the same total amount of ap as doing 250 islands on week 5. Id need to do 79 islands per week if evenly spread out across the 5 weeks. Wich is a total of 395islands.
    Instead i did just what ive said in previous post.. I sat around and waited for the goal to come to me for 4 weeks then did a considerably smaller grind.

    And thats whats bad about the system imo. That in order to be effective one has to wait for the right time to grind. Simply playing 2x as much all the time will yield very little results compared to doing one big farm the week be4 the deadline. And this is even more apparent when you look at an even larger spann of weeks than 5 weeks.

    Now i dont know how you think the system should work. But in my mind, the person that does 395 islands spread out evenly across 5 weeks should be ahead of someone who does 250 islands on week 5. But atm hes not, because the exponential scaling from week to week is just so damn high that waiting and doing a well timed sprint near the end yields more than someone going for a slower but longer marathon.
    "My brother thinks I'm crazy to play the same game for years. He doesn't understand. I plan to play it for the rest of my life."

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    And thats whats bad about the system imo. That in order to be effective one has to wait for the right time to grind. Simply playing 2x as much all the time will yield very little results compared to doing one big farm the week be4 the deadline. And this is even more apparent when you look at an even larger spann of weeks than 5 weeks.
    Yet the person doing the extra work will get that power well before you. So they do in fact get something over you.

    Also, you're not exactly describing any negative aspect there. Only a personal dislike.

    It's not like early adopters paying extra is some exceptional new occurance, either.
    Last edited by huth; 2019-08-27 at 02:02 PM.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    IM talking about AP. Wich my post was pretty damn clear in specifying. So why you are suddenly talking about raid acheivs ive no idea. But dont worry, those a actually do work towards.
    Because raiding is the context in which AP matters.

    I don't regard the acquisition of AP as a sensible primary goal of the game. It's a secondary goal that is determined by a combination of your primary goals and your constraints.

    The way I see it, you start with what you want to achieve in this game and an understanding of how much time and effort you're willing to commit to pursuing those goals and then take it from there. The AP system is simply part of what determines whether your goals are achieveable within your time budget. It's such a flexible system as well that you really have a lot of scope to choose how you get it and what you're going to spend your time doing, not necessarily just to get AP, but looking holistically at how you approach the game.

    Ultimately, the effect of AK is on the number of weeks it will take you to achieve your primary goals (like raid progression), given the amount of time and effort you're committing to the game per week. The 30% exponential curve is necessary to ensure that people can complete worthwhile goals even with a moderate amount of effort.

    Right now, doubling your effort gains you about 2 weeks of progress. I think that's reasonably fair. If you want to spend 4 times as much effort over a shorter period of time to clear the raid a month before a bunch of other players that's fine. But if you reduce the 30% AK escalation, suddenly they'd be taking twice as long to clear the raid. And that's not good at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    As for getting the rewards earlier, ive never denied thats the case. What my point was wich flew right over your head is that the curve of a 30% exponential increase per week is TOO DAMN STEEP.
    Just in case it wasn't clear already: I disagree with your assertion on the basis that I don't believe it's responsible for causing harm. Your argument was that the 30% exponential curve was bad because it discouraging AP "farming". Except I don't think that discouraging AP "farming" is necessarily a bad thing. I mean, sure, don't punish players for "farming AP" (and the game doesn't do that anyway), but also don't make the pursuit of AP so compelling that players will force themselves to farm it beyond the point of fun.

    AP should be something that is obtained as a by-product of doing content you enjoy. And yes, for some players, there is a certain amount of satisfaction to be had out of getting that reward that justifies the effort. But to be clear: if you're a player who chooses to farm the shit out of AP for an extra 2% performance that's entirely your choice. You're welcome to do it. But that doesn't make it a requirement of the game.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    To the point of me deciding to wait 4 weeks into this patch be4 i did my "island grind" of 250 islands to get rank 65. And thats what bothers me, the fact that i didnt feel the grind worth it the first 4 weeks because the goal was so unrealisticly far away without those weekly 30% increases. I wouldve much preferd to play 60 extra islands per week in addition to clearing the worldmap of ap WQ's than to have to wait around and do it the last possible weeks due to a stupide overtuned catchup mechanic.
    So you're blaming the game for your crazy choices?

    Seriously, we have here a great system that gives you oodles of choices of how to go about accumulating AP. Yet you decide you need to get to rank 65 by week 4, and as a result need to hit 250 island expeditions in a week. And you call the catchup mechanic "stupide"?!?

    Let's be clear:

    - No one was forcing you to push for rank 65. Hell, it's now been 9 weeks since patch release and the average rank in my (heroic raiding) guild is a mere 61. Even top guilds like Method are mostly sitting around 62-63.

    - There was zero compulsion to do it all in one week. Do the math, if you'd spread it out over 2 weeks you'd only have needed 15% more AP total. Given the "low hanging fruit" to be had each week, that would be mitigated even further. So you could have done 135 each week for 2 weeks, or 100 each week for 3, or 85 a week for 4 weeks.

    - There are other ways of getting AP than IE - mythic+, raids, WQ etc


    Seriously dude, if you're doing 250 island expeditions in a week, that's beyond excessive. Just because the game let's you do it doesn't mean you should. I am not saying you can't, but the fact that you're here whining about it is a clue that maybe you need to re-evaluate how you're approaching your "goals".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    actually, no. 250 islands spread out on 5 weeks gives ALOT less ap than doing 250 islands the last week of these 5. In order to get the same total amount of ap as doing 250 islands on week 5. Id need to do 79 islands per week if evenly spread out across the 5 weeks. Wich is a total of 395islands.
    Instead i did just what ive said in previous post.. I sat around and waited for the goal to come to me for 4 weeks then did a considerably smaller grind.
    Your numbers are right. But it doesn't prove your argument:

    -Firstly you have to consider what is manageable
    -Secondly you're ignoring the fact that there would generally be a significant advantage to having those extra ranks early.

    Your argument is a bit reminiscent of people who argue that it's pointless to start saving early for retirement because you salary grows as your career progresses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    And thats whats bad about the system imo. That in order to be effective one has to wait for the right time to grind. Simply playing 2x as much all the time will yield very little results compared to doing one big farm the week be4 the deadline. And this is even more apparent when you look at an even larger spann of weeks than 5 weeks.
    False. The game is designed so that the most effective way to play is to be consistent. If you're going to wait 5 weeks before doing any AP grinding, that's going to hurt your raid progression during those first 5 weeks.

    Sure, if all you're looking at is the final rank of your neckpiece, then there are certainly ways to game the system and optimise around certain parameters (eg total number of island expeditions). But that doesn't mean there aren't benefits from taking other approaches.

    All of which is kinda academic for the vast majority of players because, as I already noted, you're using a somewhat extreme example here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    Now i dont know how you think the system should work. But in my mind, the person that does 395 islands spread out evenly across 5 weeks should be ahead of someone who does 250 islands on week 5. But atm hes not, because the exponential scaling from week to week is just so damn high that waiting and doing a well timed sprint near the end yields more than someone going for a slower but longer marathon.
    1) The person doing the 395 spread out evenly is ahead for 80% of the time (significantly so by week 4). Under most normal circumstances that carries a significant advantage.
    2) Huge sprints are not healthy. 10 ie a day is manageable without impacting your life. 35 a day means you're a wreck for a week.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    I hate this dismissive response so damned much.

    Blizzard is openly responsible for the state of the community. Why?

    *snip the list*

    Blizz isnt shit to players because the community is shit to them.

    The community is shit to them because they are shit to players.

    So many of the good willed and dedicated players have given up on being civil with blizzard due to years and years of abuse. So no shit things are as they are.
    Okay but hear me out on this. Of course there are good willed and dedicated players out there.

    But majority gives shit feedback and gives it loudly. And they are the ones heard. Remember when the feedback on WoD was "there's too much orcs" ? Or that shitstorm where they had to add "angry wisps" on the Darkshore scenario because meatheads players couldn't believe NE could be resurrected ? That's right, since then I see most of players criticism -on futile matters, I don't talk for gameplay feedback- as "angry wisps" just roaming the forums annoyingly.

    I'd like to add that the community is also shit to itself, especially the new players. I don't believe much in wow classic, because it requires the players to actually play together instead of seeing each other as an annoyance. So yeah, when I say that the wow community is shit, I of course don't talk about the few damned people who actually give a shit about how the game plays, of course D:

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