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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Class design is more or less the same though. Some lost artifac traits ofcourse but we got the armors instead and there are actually more of them now. Class design was beter way back inte MoP but compared to Legion, it's more or less the same.
    Ok, so while some stuff was altered for the worse throughout Legion, most classes still retained interactions which increased rotational complexity through artifact abilities and legendaries where BfA largely keeps the overall feel of those rotations while simultaneously removing elements which had previously allowed for skill variations.

    That's not to say that skill was no longer important because obviously you still need to perform your rotation as close to flawlessly as possible while dealing with mechanics effectively, but the rotations themselves across the board lack the depth that Legion allowed.

    To give an example just from my own experience as a Mage main in Legion, stuff like double ice lance in its pre-nerf state, or the prolonging Thermal Void minigame were things that had a very high skillcap, but in the grand scheme of things only added on a couple of percentage points at the top-end beyond performing the rotation without necessarily planning ahead, or having to constantly reposition while avoiding fire and tracking haste percentages for shimmerlance, which in itself uses a charge of a defensive tool and carries a risk. Sure, BfA Frost feels very similar to Legion Frost, but it demonstrably is not.

    That's kind of my point. It's more or less the same, but very much on the less side of that equation for a few key reasons.
    Last edited by Elkfingers; 2019-08-20 at 07:47 PM.

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Class design is more or less the same though. Some lost artifac traits ofcourse but we got the armors instead and there are actually more of them now. Class design was beter way back inte MoP but compared to Legion, it's more or less the same.
    It’s absolutely not the same. There is zero character progression from 110-119 and on 120 the only thing you get is essences. You get three Azerite items but that’s not character progression, that’s tied to gear.

    I complained about this in another thread today, Blizzard could basically remove BfAs leveling phase because it has no point to it. You get nothing by leveling (except weaker).

    And after Legion you not only lost the artifact skill, you lost almost all passive artifact traits, you lost legendary effects and you lost set bonuses. You lost way more than you gained.
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  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    It’s absolutely not the same. There is zero character progression from 110-119 and on 120 the only thing you get is essences. You get three Azerite items but that’s not character progression, that’s tied to gear.

    I complained about this in another thread today, Blizzard could basically remove BfAs leveling phase because it has no point to it. You get nothing by leveling (except weaker).

    And after Legion you not only lost the artifact skill, you lost almost all passive artifact traits, you lost legendary effects and you lost set bonuses. You lost way more than you gained.
    You say that just as if leveling mattered past vanilla.
    Some artifact skills were baked as talents, passive artifact traits might as well been put as changes to spells as all they did was reduce cooldown or increase damage.
    Set bonuses were inferior to azerite traits by long shot.

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    I haven't played Mechagon yet but Nazjatar is absolutely awful (without flying). I tried to get into it last week when I renewed by sub for Classic and I am halfway done and... god, it's just bad. Visually it's okay and I like the massive water wall surrounding it but the content in there is as bad as Broken Shore / Argus if not worse. Totally uninspired and bland. And none of the questlines there are at least a bit compelling.
    I think it's worse than both, however, I can't tell you why. I have flying, and obviously it helps a bit, but it doesn't make it any more exciting or interesting, just allows me to get a chore out of the way should I choose to even go there.

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    You say that just as if leveling mattered past vanilla.
    Some artifact skills were baked as talents, passive artifact traits might as well been put as changes to spells as all they did was reduce cooldown or increase damage.
    Set bonuses were inferior to azerite traits by long shot.
    Set bonuses might have been inferior to Azerite traits but Azerite traits don't replace three layers of previous character progression that have been removed almost entirely.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I think it's worse than both, however, I can't tell you why. I have flying, and obviously it helps a bit, but it doesn't make it any more exciting or interesting, just allows me to get a chore out of the way should I choose to even go there.
    This doesn't sound promising at all. I was thinking about getting flying for BfA but why should I even bother at this point. The 8.3 zone might not even allow flying so there's no point to it.

    At least you just confirm what I already thought, Nazjatar is an awful zone.
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  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Set bonuses might have been inferior to Azerite traits but Azerite traits don't replace three layers of previous character progression that have been removed almost entirely.

    - - - Updated - - -



    This doesn't sound promising at all. I was thinking about getting flying for BfA but why should I even bother at this point. The 8.3 zone might not even allow flying so there's no point to it.

    At least you just confirm what I already thought, Nazjatar is an awful zone.
    Not trying to confirm anything, however i personally do not like Naz. I do really enjoy Mecha though, and think it suits the daily style of gameplay far better - accessible, and easy to consume in small bites. If they insist on pushing further and further down the D3 road with quick daily content, this is the way to go - naz is just not enjoyable for me at all.

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    You say that just as if leveling mattered past vanilla.
    Some artifact skills were baked as talents, passive artifact traits might as well been put as changes to spells as all they did was reduce cooldown or increase damage.
    Set bonuses were inferior to azerite traits by long shot.
    This is simple maths. We will use Fire Mage as an example here. Now follow along with me slowly here. Just so you don't spew more bullshit onto your keyboard.

    If in Legion I had access to both Flame On(talent) and Phoenix Flames(because it was granted for free by the Artifact). Then if they shove Phoenix Flames into the same talent row as Flame on in BfA.

    What does that give us? Is it a net loss? Are you following yet buddy?

    It's very simple isn't it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Class design is more or less the same though. Some lost artifac traits ofcourse but we got the armors instead and there are actually more of them now. Class design was beter way back inte MoP but compared to Legion, it's more or less the same.
    See my reply above. It's really not the same is it?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    It’s absolutely not the same. There is zero character progression from 110-119 and on 120 the only thing you get is essences. You get three Azerite items but that’s not character progression, that’s tied to gear.

    I complained about this in another thread today, Blizzard could basically remove BfAs leveling phase because it has no point to it. You get nothing by leveling (except weaker).

    And after Legion you not only lost the artifact skill, you lost almost all passive artifact traits, you lost legendary effects and you lost set bonuses. You lost way more than you gained.
    There's actually zero character progression from level 100-120. Twenty levels where you get nothing. Absolutely nothing.

    Then before that you only get 2 talent points from 80-100.


    Essentially over 40 levels you gain 2 talent points. The last baseline ability most specs receive is at level 80.


    Plus the kicker: They gutted specs to revolve around the Artifact(and Legos). This isn't opinion, it's fact. Then what did they do - they gutted the Artifact too.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Not trying to confirm anything, however i personally do not like Naz. I do really enjoy Mecha though, and think it suits the daily style of gameplay far better - accessible, and easy to consume in small bites. If they insist on pushing further and further down the D3 road with quick daily content, this is the way to go - naz is just not enjoyable for me at all.
    I stopped playing 8.2 entirely except for logging in twice for Heroic raid nights with my mates as soon as I got flying.

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    8.2 is horrible. We get two zones with incredibly short storylines hidden behind endless grind.
    what do you mean? i had all the story content done in less than two weeks, that's the shortest the story content has been gated in years. you didn't even need to wait for the raid/dungeon to be released to finish the story in those zones.

  9. #369
    Stood in the Fire
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    Class design is some of the worst the genre has ever seen. It is incomprehensible how bad the actual core gameplay has become for a game that adds so little.

    Plot had its hopes and a few good early moments but they spirited away within an hour of the expansion starting and whenever the core story and context actually bothered to surface it just shit itself any time after.

    Dungeons and raids are sub-average, worse than anything else bar maybe Cataclysm and the systems driving them make it highly unappealing and unsustainable.

    Nothing other to say than it's a bad game, not bad for WoW, but full-on bad. Blizzard has completely lost their touch. I'm sure some people love packing shit into their gullets and thus love this but that is their prerogative.

    Everyone who mattered is gone now and it's a newer developer crew working on someone elses product, while they're endlessly berated. It has as much chance of getting good again as The Simpsons does. Probably less as at least that show has money, meanwhile Activision is probably pushing budgets down to the dime these days.
    Last edited by BlueRemedy; 2019-08-20 at 11:05 PM.

  10. #370
    Scarab Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Are we allowed to call posts like the OP "blog stuff", or does that only work for negative OPs?
    "The heart of the Horde" = Alliance-approved Horde

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Elkfingers View Post
    Not even trollling, can you explain why?

    Literally it's difficult for me to think of anything I enjoyed less than island expeditions other than something like being hit over the head repeatedly with a shovel, so I'm genuinely intrigued as to what boxes they're ticking for you that you'd voluntarily do them outside of the weekly quest.
    I like islands because for me they capture the things I actually like about WoW combat in the open world and magnifies them, specifically pulling large groups of mobs and being able to use my skills to survive. I like trying to figure out the best way to go to beat the timer. And I love love love the fact that they take a minute or two at most to pop, unlike dungeons. They remind me a lot of the MoP scenarios, though more engaging and less frustrating.

    Now, the way YOU feel about Islands is the exact way I feel about Warfronts. And you know what's funny? Several members of my guild LOVE warfronts. Meanwhile, I actually like most of BFA. I don't think classes suck (and I play a lot of different classes), I've loved all the zones (except certain vertical parts of Nazjatar pre-flying), and the raids have been mostly excellent except for that awful awful awful Crucible of Storms fiasco.

    That's the beauty of opinions... we can all have them, and most of the time, we can have different ones and agree to disagree. But at no time are our opinions about these things actual facts, and that's what some people are missing here.

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Are we allowed to call posts like the OP "blog stuff", or does that only work for negative OPs?
    These are given a free reign.

    What would happen if I created a "I really fucking hate BfA" thread with a 5-6 reasons why it's a steaming pile of shit. How long would that last?

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    This is simple maths. We will use Fire Mage as an example here. Now follow along with me slowly here. Just so you don't spew more bullshit onto your keyboard.

    If in Legion I had access to both Flame On(talent) and Phoenix Flames(because it was granted for free by the Artifact). Then if they shove Phoenix Flames into the same talent row as Flame on in BfA.

    What does that give us? Is it a net loss? Are you following yet buddy?

    It's very simple isn't it.

    A minor difference, sure. But you also gained other traits and actually more of them. So yes, the math is simple but somehow you managed to get it wrong anyway.
    I didn't say there were no changes but overall, it's very similar and more or less the same expansion, with a few improvements to the horrible RNG Legion had.
    Heck, the legendary system alone was enough to ruin Legion for me.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Because:

    - Island expeditions are terrible
    - Warfronts are terrible
    - The story is godawful
    - The Azerite armor system is bland and not compelling
    - Zone design was lackluster for most zones
    - Specs were gutted and play terribly
    - Gated grinds are the new normal
    - There just isn't anything exciting happening in game
    I agree with the bulk of this. I'd also add how terrible 2 of the 3 seasons of m+ has been. Ghuunies were terrible and also didn't work for the first little bit making the whole thing awful, reaping was fun and I don't think I've heard anyone complain about it, and now these emissaries that are just super annoying.

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    It’s absolutely not the same. There is zero character progression from 110-119 and on 120 the only thing you get is essences. You get three Azerite items but that’s not character progression, that’s tied to gear.

    I complained about this in another thread today, Blizzard could basically remove BfAs leveling phase because it has no point to it. You get nothing by leveling (except weaker).

    And after Legion you not only lost the artifact skill, you lost almost all passive artifact traits, you lost legendary effects and you lost set bonuses. You lost way more than you gained.
    Ok but the artifact and the neck + armors in BfA are the same system only different pices of gear.
    Sets are also always made pointless at the start of a new expansion so there is no real difference there.

    The leveling has always been rather pointless. Heck, it was not even fun back in vanilla and the game didn't really start until max level but that just how WoW works and should not come as a surprise to anyone after 15 years.

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    A minor difference, sure. But you also gained other traits and actually more of them. So yes, the math is simple but somehow you managed to get it wrong anyway.
    I didn't say there were no changes but overall, it's very similar and more or less the same expansion, with a few improvements to the horrible RNG Legion had.
    Heck, the legendary system alone was enough to ruin Legion for me.
    Oh okay. We're going to play that game?

    15ish Artifact Traits.
    1 Artifact Ability.
    2 Legendary talents.
    2 Set bonuses.

    vs

    3 shitty passive procs (6 if you count the double rings from 8.1)


    I mean. It's not that hard to compare is it? The Azerite "traits" are also all hilariously shit passive procs. "+84 mastery for 12 seconds"


    I can't believe people are still making this argument.

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Oh okay. We're going to play that game?

    15ish Artifact Traits.
    1 Artifact Ability.
    2 Legendary talents.
    2 Set bonuses.

    vs

    3 shitty passive procs (6 if you count the double rings from 8.1)


    I mean. It's not that hard to compare is it? The Azerite "traits" are also all hilariously shit passive procs. "+84 mastery for 12 seconds"


    I can't believe people are still making this argument.
    3 passive procs because class should feel complete without supplementing it with some dumb items that will go away as soon as expansion ends like:
    "legendary" items, tons of artifact passive traits, one useless artifact ability, and 2 passive tier set band-aid bonuses

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    3 passive procs because class should feel complete without supplementing it with some dumb items that will go away as soon as expansion ends like:
    "legendary" items, tons of artifact passive traits, one useless artifact ability, and 2 passive tier set band-aid bonuses
    That's the hilarious thing champ.

    The classes don't feel complete. Because they were completely and utterly gutted to be designed around their Artifact and Legendaries.


    Then they went right ahead and gutted those too, whilst adding absolutely nothing to fill the gaping hole left over. Lmfao this is too easy.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    That's the hilarious thing champ.

    The classes don't feel complete. Because they were completely and utterly gutted to be designed around their Artifact and Legendaries.


    Then they went right ahead and gutted those too, whilst adding absolutely nothing to fill the gaping hole left over. Lmfao this is too easy.
    Yes they do feel complete. In legion they did felt hollow without all that stuff.

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    Mythics aren't good, too much trash and too much of it can't be CCed. Eternal Palace is okay, a bit on the easy side.
    "checking armory" 7/8 HC, 748 io... fucking /facepalm
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