Page 1 of 2
1
2
LastLast
  1. #1

    Frost versus Fire ATM 8192019

    Hey all! So I know at first fire was better than frost but now with Rank3 of our Raid Essence CLP with Lucid Dreams minor - isnt Frost still competitive with fire for Eternal Palace? With Frost and the NOIL style I am rated on wowprogress at about 43k DPS. Resimming with Fire I cant even get close to that. Is fire really that much better? (We are stuck on H Azshara - will be going into mythics soon but slowly) Thanks!

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by RedTGP View Post
    Hey all! So I know at first fire was better than frost but now with Rank3 of our Raid Essence CLP with Lucid Dreams minor - isnt Frost still competitive with fire for Eternal Palace? With Frost and the NOIL style I am rated on wowprogress at about 43k DPS. Resimming with Fire I cant even get close to that. Is fire really that much better? (We are stuck on H Azshara - will be going into mythics soon but slowly) Thanks!
    Fire is better than frost. Higher dps, also fights are much more fire than frost friendly.

    Btw. Dont use wowprogress as source of your dps. Go to raidbots.

    Also, on fire u need bm traits + wrists from mechagon.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by HCLM View Post
    Fire is better than frost. Higher dps, also fights are much more fire than frost friendly.

    Btw. Dont use wowprogress as source of your dps. Go to raidbots.

    Also, on fire u need bm traits + wrists from mechagon.
    Sort of yes, but outside Sivara, Za'qul and Azshara, Frost is good enough. And as Sivara isn't a dps race, it doesn't really matter what spec you play on it as long as you dont get frozen or eat the waves.

  4. #4
    The issue with frost is that it is very dependent on raid strategy and fights. While dps wise frost is pretty similar to fire, the fights just favor fire much more. Looking at the bosses at mythic level:

    - Commander Sivara: No icelance GS build suffers greatly if you need to move on frost side.
    - Blackwater Behemoth: Each platform lines up with combustion, since there is relative a long downtime while swimming between platforms fire burst has higher value than frosts sustained damage.
    - Radiance of Azshara: So much movement to avoid tornado's that getting a GS cast to go through is quite difficult.
    - Lady Ashvane: Damage during the non-shield part is of much higher value than during the shield phase (especially going with 2 shield strat). Fire burst is again more valuable than frost sustained damage.
    - Orgozoa: Most strats have the raid stood in between the boss and the adds to allow better AoE healing. This makes splitting ice hard/impossible to use, since priority damage is on boss and you won't hit the adds. Not to mention that since you are stood relatively close to the boss, it becomes possible that your GS won't shatter as you are too close. However, fire works and ignite will spread if adds are positioned properly. In addition fire has more damage during the second phase (sub 30%).

    I haven't done the rest of the bosses, but overall frost suffers from its actual dps being limited while in theory it could be great. Raids being designed around preventing splitting ice to work, sustained dps compared to burst dps, deadzone where shatter doesn't work and being very affected by movement means even with similar theoretical numbers in practice fire is better for raids.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Sort of yes, but outside Sivara, Za'qul and Azshara, Frost is good enough. And as Sivara isn't a dps race, it doesn't really matter what spec you play on it as long as you dont get frozen or eat the waves.
    I didn't say Frost isnt viable. Frost is fine. Fire, however, is better for progression groups. Higher burst, great multi target cleave and execute phase, all that is very important in early progression.

  6. #6
    The Lightbringer Lollis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    England
    Posts
    3,235
    Quote Originally Posted by Sageless View Post
    The issue with frost is that it is very dependent on raid strategy and fights. While dps wise frost is pretty similar to fire, the fights just favor fire much more. Looking at the bosses at mythic level:

    - Commander Sivara: No icelance GS build suffers greatly if you need to move on frost side.
    - Blackwater Behemoth: Each platform lines up with combustion, since there is relative a long downtime while swimming between platforms fire burst has higher value than frosts sustained damage.
    - Radiance of Azshara: So much movement to avoid tornado's that getting a GS cast to go through is quite difficult.
    - Lady Ashvane: Damage during the non-shield part is of much higher value than during the shield phase (especially going with 2 shield strat). Fire burst is again more valuable than frost sustained damage.
    Sivara - Kinda agree.
    Behemoth - You get Icy Veins back on the 2nd platform and it doesn't last long on 3rd anyway.
    Radiance - 'Movement' only exists as a problem if you don't know how it works. Tornados work like axes in King's Rest, when it is cast, move away and then move into where the tornado was. I have zero problems as frost on this fight.

    Ashvane: Not really. Fire has higher burst but it falls away quickly. My GS crits with azerite spikes up are above 300k. We are still working on ashvane at the moment, but i'm top on pretty much every try because of the size of my GS crits along with the cleave when bubble happens.


    When other people start getting their 3rd essences they will watch as Fire sadly just drifts away into obscurity.
    Speciation Is Gradual

  7. #7
    I raid as frost and find council really hard due to the debuff where you can't duplicate casts. I am either weaving ice lances in that aren't even FOF or just getting silenced.

  8. #8
    The Lightbringer Lollis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    England
    Posts
    3,235
    Quote Originally Posted by jccallah View Post
    I raid as frost and find council really hard due to the debuff where you can't duplicate casts. I am either weaving ice lances in that aren't even FOF or just getting silenced.
    Council is a shit fight for both frost and fire tbh, I can't imagine how terrible it is for arcane.
    Speciation Is Gradual

  9. #9
    At least with fire you can weave in fire blasts, with no ice lance build there is nothing to weave unless you get really lucky with brain freeze procs.

  10. #10
    Scarab Lord Vynestra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Heartbreak City
    Posts
    4,775
    Quote Originally Posted by Lollis View Post
    Council is a shit fight for both frost and fire tbh, I can't imagine how terrible it is for arcane.
    Council as in court I assume?

    There's a strategy on mythic in which you get a boss to 30% and then you can macro to target the boss at 30, cast scorch, and target last target to essentially benefit from execute without having it up, spriests can benefit that way too. So fire definitely wins out for that reason. Your essentially in execute for a much longer period in the fight.

    Mages still aren't great on it, but it's a good strat.
    The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's to late to stop reading it.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by HCLM View Post
    Fire is better than frost. Higher dps, also fights are much more fire than frost friendly.

    Btw. Dont use wowprogress as source of your dps. Go to raidbots.

    Also, on fire u need bm traits + wrists from mechagon.
    3 blaster master traits yes, the bracers you don't need. They can be strong if used well. They aren't miles better than other options and can easily be wasted. Even benthic bracers keep up with them and require no extra attention.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jccallah View Post
    I raid as frost and find council really hard due to the debuff where you can't duplicate casts. I am either weaving ice lances in that aren't even FOF or just getting silenced.
    A no proc instant IL is much better than a 6 second silience. Luckily prior to mythic, which is where the OP is, you only deal with the silience decree 2 or 3 times.
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Alvito View Post
    3 blaster master traits yes, the bracers you don't need. They can be strong if used well. They aren't miles better than other options and can easily be wasted. Even benthic bracers keep up with them and require no extra attention.

    - - - Updated - - -



    A no proc instant IL is much better than a 6 second silience. Luckily prior to mythic, which is where the OP is, you only deal with the silience decree 2 or 3 times.
    How you can waste wrists if you just press it and u get free 2-3 blasts in pyro. And benthic wrists are nowhere close to them.

  13. #13
    definetly frost m8

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by HCLM View Post
    How you can waste wrists if you just press it and u get free 2-3 blasts in pyro. And benthic wrists are nowhere close to them.
    Timing it poorly or over capping which is the 2 big mistakes you make with them. No matter though while noce to have the bracers aren't a must have
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  15. #15
    Weeb Queen Video Games's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    The land of ports
    Posts
    13,924
    Quote Originally Posted by Lollis View Post
    When other people start getting their 3rd essences they will watch as Fire sadly just drifts away into obscurity.
    Yeah i remember when people said that before clf. Keep dreaming.

  16. #16
    Immortal Nikkaszal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    7,448
    Quote Originally Posted by jccallah View Post
    I raid as frost and find council really hard due to the debuff where you can't duplicate casts. I am either weaving ice lances in that aren't even FOF or just getting silenced.
    Don't forget you can cast ANY spell to clear duplicates - this includes Cspell, Shimmer and Cold Snap! These are off the GCD so help your DPS uptime greatly when building icicles. Shimmer can be dangerous but if Im confident in what's going on at the time I can go FB - FB (Shimmer during cast) - FB (Shimmer back to spot during cast) for 3 chaincasts in a row without being silenced. It's also a good time to refresh IB if you need.
    Last edited by Nikkaszal; 2019-08-21 at 03:10 AM.
    (This signature was removed for violation of the Avatar & Signature Guidelines)

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikkaszal View Post
    Don't forget you can cast ANY spell to clear duplicates - this includes Cspell, Shimmer and Cold Snap! These are off the GCD so help your DPS uptime greatly when building icicles. Shimmer can be dangerous but if Im confident in what's going on at the time I can go FB - FB (Shimmer during cast) - FB (Shimmer back to spot during cast) for 3 chaincasts in a row without being silenced. It's also a good time to refresh IB if you need.
    I didn't think about that. Thanks for the tip!

  18. #18
    Anyone some insight on Frost vs Fire for M+? Considering Frost has better utility and can make some pulls easier due to permanent slow it should be better?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Qnubi View Post
    Anyone some insight on Frost vs Fire for M+? Considering Frost has better utility and can make some pulls easier due to permanent slow it should be better?
    Both specs are fine

  20. #20
    Herald of the Titans CptEgo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    2,554
    I'm doing way more damage as Frost and also simming higher, I don't really understand how people get so much damage out of Fire.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •