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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    So I just wonder what Sylvanas has to do to actually shock people enough that they will turn on her... I really do, because if genocide is not enough...
    Her opposition have to be compelling in any way and promise a superior status quo in her absence. Given that they're all interchangable Anduin groupies without a lick of internal conflict and their future is the unifaction, that's impossible. The issue isn't with telling us the morally gray lady is bad, it's where we go from there.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Her opposition have to be compelling in any way and promise a superior status quo in her absence. Given that they're all interchangable Anduin groupies without a lick of internal conflict and their future is the unifaction, that's impossible. The issue isn't with telling us the morally gray lady is bad, it's where we go from there.
    Well, for many people, like the guy I quoted, that acceptance does not yet have come. But I see your point.

    While I am not sure why it is so bad to keep a cordial diplomatic relationship with the King of Stormwind, I agree that Baine will run into trouble if made Warchief. He IS weak. He did not have the balls to openly defy Garrosh or Sylvanas despite heavily disagreeing with them. There might even be a case made for him being a Traitor over the Theramore issue. So no, not a future path.

    Thal'ryssa is too new, Firepaw... yeah right, Gallywix... not even I want that for the Horde..., Rokhan ... doubtful, Lor'themar barely wants to rule the Belfs....

    There is Liadrin. Would be an interesting choice. But she probably has to do a lot of soul searching after helping Sylvanas... unless the Light and Undeath really have a deal going. Saurfang is kind of the natural choice, but many in the Horde and many more players despise him for not helping the genocidal maniac, so problem there.

    I think an interesting choice would be someone young that is not yet so marked by loss and trauma that he can only think in terms of death and war. Someone that still believes in the Horde's ideals: Zekhan.
    Probably I will get stabbed in the face now, but this is really an interesting possibility. He is after all the one that re-inspired Saurfang, which is quite something.
    We have Anduin as one young ruler, with all the old heroes offering council, why does the Horde need to pick one of the old guys to lead? With Saurfang and Thrall councelling, Zekhan could be fun.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Well, for many people, like the guy I quoted, that acceptance does not yet have come. But I see your point.

    While I am not sure why it is so bad to keep a cordial diplomatic relationship with the King of Stormwind, I agree that Baine will run into trouble if made Warchief. He IS weak. He did not have the balls to openly defy Garrosh or Sylvanas despite heavily disagreeing with them. There might even be a case made for him being a Traitor over the Theramore issue. So no, not a future path.
    It isn't bad to have peaceseeking characters per se. But when the world bends over backwards to make sure they're right in all instances and the whole cast is composed of such, the plot loses proactivity and conflict, the two ingredients for any story, especially a fantasy war game where bashing all the toys we gathered together is a big part of the appeal. To give an example, the issue with Anduin isn't that he's a peaceful young man thrust into a position of responsibility and wanting to make the world a better place and unite everyone - it's that the whole world conspires to give him a free pass in this. In Legion, his people doubted his ability and he wondered whether he could live up to his father - he didn't want conflict, but neither could he stand up to Genn when it came to Stormheim. This made both characters hold further depth. The same is the case with Baine, it isn't so much that he's a traitor or a human footstool though he is, it's the way these things are framed - the narrative enables him, it doesn't acknowledge or challenge his flaws. Compare either of those messes to Velen - also a benevolent, peaceful character, but one which Legion actually challenged and helped develop.

    Re: New Warchief. There are legitimately no good candidates. Ideally we'd have a young orc do it, but there are no young orcs since Mists killed them all. I do think Baine is the likeliest choice though, given his build up and the dev statements about how every race would have their place in the chair. He's a singularly awful pick, but preferable to Thrall in the sense that if Thrall gets in the chair, there's no getting him out, whereas Baine has a larger chance to fail and be replaced.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  4. #204
    Scarab Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    It isn't bad to have peaceseeking characters per se. But when the world bends over backwards to make sure they're right in all instances and the whole cast is composed of such, the plot loses proactivity and conflict.
    There is an interesting read here, where we can see that Manduin has a lot of elements of a Mary Sue type of character, "black hole" version.

    As for Baineboi, I'd start to getting seriously worried if I was appointed as Warchief, no matter by whom. That would mean that in a couple of years I'd very probably get over-the-rainbow crazy - in fact, as soon as the writers find themselves temporarily out of villains.
    "The heart of the Horde" = Alliance-approved Horde

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    She has to kill Anduin. And Jaina. Yes, that will turn every player against her I am sure!
    I'm pretty sure she could kill and zombify every single Horde leader and we'd still see at least a solid 30% approval rate on her polls.

    We saw the same with Garrosh as we saw into his head his insane fantasy of killing every Horde and Alliance leader and drowning the world in purple Old God madness and still had some people going "yeah, okay, that's fine."

    I really don't see Sylvanas "I see myself as a goddess of unparalleled death and destruction" touching azerite finding common ground with Anduin "I see a world of butterflies, peace and rainbows" touching azerite finding common ground and working together any time soon.
    Last edited by Powerogue; 2019-09-13 at 06:32 PM.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    I'm pretty sure she could kill and zombify every single Horde leader and we'd still see at least a solid 30% approval rate on her polls.
    WoW player Waifu #1 no matter what.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    I'm pretty sure she could kill and zombify every single Horde leader and we'd still see at least a solid 30% approval rate on her polls.
    Don't undersell it. Killing pretty much any of her rebel opposition that wasn't a plot device created to die like Zelling would vastly improve her in my eyes. It'd be the first time she meaningfully improved the Horde since she took her position. Killing all of the rebel leadership would make her one of the greats.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2019-09-13 at 06:48 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Don't undersell it. Killing pretty much any of her rebel opposition that wasn't a plot device created to die like Zelling would vastly improve her in my eyes. It'd be the first time she meaningfully improved the Horde since she took her position.
    I think Saurfang is still salvageable. But I could live with Baine dying.
    And the Tauren actually have replacements (not to mention that if Baine died, I could see Magatha going for it; also I could totally see Magatha coming to the rescue during a Siege of Thunder Bluff)
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2019-09-13 at 06:50 PM.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    She has to kill Anduin. And Jaina. Yes, that will turn every player against her I am sure!
    No, see, she has to kiss Anduin's feet and beg forgiveness. No one would tolerate her after that.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think Saurfang is still salvageable. But I could live with Baine dying.
    And the Tauren actually have replacements.
    If she would kill Saurfang and Baine I would forgive her. If they stay dead I will resub.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by KrakHed View Post
    No, see, she has to kiss Anduin's feet and beg forgiveness. No one would tolerate her after that.
    Now here's someone who knows what's up.

    @Nymrohd

    Saurfang is a great character conceptually but his role in the story and the story and setting itself are absolutely foul vis a vis him, which is why he's so insufferable and why I'll pop open a cold one when he kicks the bucket in some faux heroic death while mournful violin music plays in the background. Bob just needs a change of motivation while doing the exact same thing to be a coherent character, that is a massive ungrateful pussy. All the others are fifty shades of irrelevant.

    Baine is Baine.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think Saurfang is still salvageable. But I could live with Baine dying.
    And the Tauren actually have replacements (not to mention that if Baine died, I could see Magatha going for it; also I could totally see Magatha coming to the rescue during a Siege of Thunder Bluff)
    Good lord, Magatha coming to "save the day" would be the most ridiculous moment ever.
    Magatha: You can't take over Thunder Bluff! That's my job!

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Good lord, Magatha coming to "save the day" would be the most ridiculous moment ever.
    Magatha: You can't take over Thunder Bluff! That's my job!
    I mean, yes. How is she supposed to rule the Tauren people if Sylvanas kills them? Magatha wants to rule the tauren which means that the tauren are actually important to her.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think Saurfang is still salvageable. But I could live with Baine dying.
    And the Tauren actually have replacements (not to mention that if Baine died, I could see Magatha going for it; also I could totally see Magatha coming to the rescue during a Siege of Thunder Bluff)
    I honestly think all the characters are salvageable, but that requires them to be placed into a very different story context. Saurfang is good so long as he's allowed to be what he was made to be. A man of action who does badass shit because he's both an orc warrior and a meme. This story pulled him out of his proper role.

    Baine is a sadly underdeveloped mess of a character. He's so often forced to be the token good Horde that he's not allowed to ever fight for the Horde. He needs to be relevant outside the context of the faction war in order to grow, but he was cut from Legion where he would have had the chance to do so.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by KrakHed View Post
    I honestly think all the characters are salvageable, but that requires them to be placed into a very different story context. Saurfang is good so long as he's allowed to be what he was made to be. A man of action who does badass shit because he's both an orc warrior and a meme. This story pulled him out of his proper role.
    I disagree. Saurfang could be, and in fact is a decently fleshed out character following his A Good War and even in-game characterization at least until Lost Honor when he becomes a completely lost cause. But this is a black and white story where for every character but him, good has no cost and when even he abdicates all responsibility and has it never referenced again. BFA Saurfang can only be a good character in a morally grey setting where his introspective journey is the actual focus and where consequence is a thing that exists.

    However, he's basically a glorified side character and author's pet who simultaneously appears too much and too little, while being used to shill the only character even worse than he and his two amigos Baine and Thrall. This added to by being cast as a towering rebel leader who did nothing wrong and who everyone is immediately fine with despite guilt, reflection on his past and present actions and so forth being his main traits in this story.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2019-09-13 at 07:03 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  16. #216
    i wish order hall stories would have continued from legion, and my highlord could have given her the only redemption she deserves, pumping holy energy through her chest with ashbringer.

    so, that form of redemption could be possible from anduin, since his sword's got holy energy in it now.

    i think at this point, the main reason i want her to die is to hurt her beta orbiters, more than i want her to die for anything she's done in game.
    https://imgur.com/FX4poT6

    steve danuser - waifu cringelord

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I disagree. Saurfang could be, and in fact is a decently fleshed out character following his A Good War and even in-game characterization at least until Lost Honor when he becomes a completely lost cause. But this is a black and white story where for every character but him, good has no cost and when even he abdicates all responsibility and has it never referenced again. BFA Saurfang can only be a good character in a morally grey setting where his introspective journey is the actual focus and where consequence is a thing that exists.

    However, he's basically a glorified side character and author's pet who simultaneously appears too much and too little, while being used to shill the only character even worse than he and his two amigos Baine and Thrall. This added to by being cast as a towering rebel leader who did nothing wrong and who everyone is immediately fine with despite guilt, reflection on his past and present actions and so forth being his main traits in this story.
    And the issue in Lost Honor is his failing to be a man of action, moping in a fucking cell instead. If he has to be introspective, he should still be a badass at the same time.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    I think an interesting choice would be someone young that is not yet so marked by loss and trauma that he can only think in terms of death and war. Someone that still believes in the Horde's ideals: Zekhan.
    After Thrall and his horrible decision-making, I'm personally hoping that any young Warchief would have at least some leadership experience.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think Saurfang is still salvageable. But I could live with Baine dying.
    And the Tauren actually have replacements (not to mention that if Baine died, I could see Magatha going for it; also I could totally see Magatha coming to the rescue during a Siege of Thunder Bluff)
    The Grimtotem are the only tauren tribe to have an official alliance with the Alliance; I would not think that that the leader of the tribe would make a great Horde leader. But then I'm still pissed at Magatha for the whole mak'gora thing and the first time she seized Thunder Bluff, so I'm probably biased in this topic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Re: New Warchief. There are legitimately no good candidates. Ideally we'd have a young orc do it, but there are no young orcs since Mists killed them all. I do think Baine is the likeliest choice though, given his build up and the dev statements about how every race would have their place in the chair. He's a singularly awful pick, but preferable to Thrall in the sense that if Thrall gets in the chair, there's no getting him out, whereas Baine has a larger chance to fail and be replaced.
    I wouldn't mind Nazgrim. If people are already torn between an orc (Saurfang) and an undead (Sylvanas), why not just take the best of both worlds?

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by KrakHed View Post
    And the issue in Lost Honor is his failing to be a man of action, moping in a fucking cell instead. If he has to be introspective, he should still be a badass at the same time.
    A character like him doesn't necessarily suffer from having a moment where he's unable to proceed. Just not in this way. Saurfang not being able to recommit immediately after his peptalk with memeboi and later still walking out would be a very strong beat in another, much better story. But not in this one. A characterization and mental profile like that when in a scene opposite "Can do no wrong" Wrynn is just out of place. Saurfang and A Good War in general is from a different genre and even setting from the story that followed and so is Old Soldier. It's like if Mike Ehrmantraut were opposite a Carebear.

    @Aresk

    This is a patrician thought.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2019-09-13 at 07:40 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post

    This is a patrician thought.
    I think the Four Horsemen, by the enchantment used for them to be raised, are bound to the Lich King.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

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