Is it possible that Anduin would be instrumental in Sylvanas' sort of "redemption"?

[Grazrug]

She's a villain, stop putting quotes.

Stop telling people what to do.

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Wasn't the starving because some idiot thought it'd be a good idea to have the goblins recklessly work in Azshara, flooding the river that provided for them in a burning desert with pollution?

Then that same idiot decided it'd be a better idea to ship water across the continent from Mulgore, almost got killed by a raid group of pigmen but saved by Baine, it was a whole thing.

Changing the architecture from tents to metal with bonfires everywhere probably didn't help the desert living conditions either...

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They seem intent on getting us to think that's already happened. They're following N'zoth's dagger straight into the trap, then head off to presumably hand it straight to Azshara's minions (Nathanos entering the water and leaving without it), as well as giving away Ashvane and her knowledge of azerite weaponry, which is immediately used against the Horde. It's all left ambiguous, but as of now that seems to be what they want us to think is happening.

I advise you to read the short story of Garrosh. Durotar has always been on shortage of resources that aren't rationed water or pig and pork. Anything else had to be imported. One of the grizzly hills orc sisters mentioned even Thrall did that on purpose and trashed him. to make them suffer, while the other thought more open about it.

[mickybrighteyes]

She's a villain, stop putting quotes.

I took that phrase as a general statement, not specifically aimed at Sylvanas but that any story that seems to put forth an obvious alliance party as the moral basis for setting the example to 'redeem' a horde entity...

Look how it turned out for Saurfang.

[Powerogue]

I advise you to read the short story of Garrosh. Durotar has always been on shortage of resources that aren't rationed water or pig and pork. Anything else had to be imported. One of the grizzly hills orc sisters mentioned even Thrall did that on purpose and trashed him. to make them suffer, while the other thought more open about it.

From googling that it looks like you're referring to Krenna and Heart of War. Somehow I missed that short story, and will indeed read it. I had always taken Garrosh's short-sighted leadership just for granted of him being arrogant and stubborn. It's interesting to note other orcs who were similarly dissatisfied with Thrall for their own reasons. It's important to note that, while he discarded most of the Horde when they didn't fall in line, he had that backing of orc loyalists who were absolutely gung-ho for some reckless conquering if it meant getting out of that harsh desert.

edit: yeah I know still off topic but discussing the short story for a bit, I find it interesting how even as early as this we see clearly Garrosh's problem of over-prioritizing the orcs over everybody else. This feels like it was written somewhere around late WotLK-early Cataclysm. Forsaken? Elves? Bah, who needs 'em. That'll cripple our imports that keep Orgrimmar alive? Then we'll just steal more from the Alliance! His trajectory as a character makes a lot more sense in hindsight.

In a vain attempt to steer this discussion even slightly on topic, all these Sylvanas threads have definitely gotten me to dig further into WC3 and the like and see that Sylvanas, likewise, didn't experience some sudden, drastic character shift to become evil, at one point being the free will touting messianic savior of the forsaken. She's always been like this. I was particularly surprised to find out her using her banshee abilities to manipulate and enslave entire groups to work for her in retaking Lordaeron. I think it was human bandits, murlocs, and ogres. And she had no qualms about Varimathras doing the same with Garithos and his soldiers.

[Whitedragon]

It's true he will redeem her and here is how he will do it.

After the Defense of Stormwind Raid, as Sylvanas lies on the ground shoulderpadless/defeated, Saurfang goes up to deal the final blow but is stopped by Genn who says "shes ours!". But before anything can happen Taran Zhu appears from the shadows and says "No, it is the Pandaren who have suffered the most, it is we who will decide her fate". Everyone in the room proceeds to beat the snot out of Taran Zhu, meanwhile both Suarfang and Genn turn to each other and say "this is foolish, let's both killer her".

Later that evening both Sylvanas and Taran Zhu are dragged out in front of Teldrassils husk where they are bound to a fallen branch of the once grate tree. Sylvanas tells horde players to keep playing along this is all going according to plan, and Taran Zhu tells us how justice wasn't served, but we remind him he overturned a guilty verdict from the celestials, and caused WoD, then proceed to gag him. Tyrande is given the honor of finishing them both off but just before she looses her arrow, Anduin Shouts "Wait!!!, an arrow of vengeance will never bring adequate peace to those that have suffered, we must show true justice, and seek redeem them both...... Redeem them both in GLORIOUS FIRE AS JUSTICE FOR ALL!!!! And because we don't want Iron elves... ". after this Anduin hands Tyrande a torch and orders his finest kindling brought forth. Moved by his speech Tyrande decides to beckon Thrall to join her, and together they light a fire of friendship and unity!

After this scenario happens we gain the ability to talk, group, trade, and pvp cross faction. But most importantly of all we now have 2x the trolls in /2 to tell us about rectal cavities, real life politics, and to sell us skull flame shields for 700k-1.2M

[Varodoc]

It's true he will redeem her and here is how he will do it.

After the Defense of Stormwind Raid, as Sylvanas lies on the ground shoulderpadless/defeated, Saurfang goes up to deal the final blow but is stopped by Genn who says "shes ours!". But before anything can happen Taran Zhu appears from the shadows and says "No, it is the Pandaren who have suffered the most, it is we who will decide her fate". Everyone in the room proceeds to beat the snot out of Taran Zhu, meanwhile both Suarfang and Genn turn to each other and say "this is foolish, let's both killer her".

Later that evening both Sylvanas and Taran Zhu are dragged out in front of Teldrassils husk where they are bound to a fallen branch of the once grate tree. Sylvanas tells horde players to keep playing along this is all going according to plan, and Taran Zhu tells us how justice wasn't served, but we remind him he overturned a guilty verdict from the celestials, and caused WoD, then proceed to gag him. Tyrande is given the honor of finishing them both off but just before she looses her arrow, Anduin Shouts "Wait!!!, an arrow of vengeance will never bring adequate peace to those that have suffered, we must show true justice, and seek redeem them both...... Redeem them both in GLORIOUS FIRE AS JUSTICE FOR ALL!!!! And because we don't want Iron elves... ". after this Anduin hands Tyrande a torch and orders his finest kindling brought forth. Moved by his speech Tyrande decides to beckon Thrall to join her, and together they light a fire of friendship and unity!

After this scenario happens we gain the ability to talk, group, trade, and pvp cross faction. But most importantly of all we now have 2x the trolls in /2 to tell us about rectal cavities, real life politics, and to sell us skull flame shields for 700k-1.2M

Nonsense. This is what will truly happen.

*Sylvanas lies defeated on the ground*

Anduin: We end this now, Windrunner!
Sylvanas: Your father would be so proud… that you are dooming this world!
Anduin: Whaa?

*N'Zoth appears out of nowhere*

Brother Pike: It's N'Zoth! He has come for his prize… The Banshee Queen.
Alliance in general: Wut.
Pike: Sylvanas is the greatest threat to N'Zoth, and he knows that. If we want to save our world, she must live. Only she knows how to defeat the Void.
Alleria: Ok… if you say so…

*People gather around Sylvanas*

Sylvanas: Yes, this was my top-secret masterplan all along! This is my destiny. Now mortals, follow me, into the Void.

[Super Dickmann]

edit: yeah I know still off topic but discussing the short story for a bit, I find it interesting how even as early as this we see clearly Garrosh's problem of over-prioritizing the orcs over everybody else. This feels like it was written somewhere around late WotLK-early Cataclysm. Forsaken? Elves? Bah, who needs 'em. That'll cripple our imports that keep Orgrimmar alive? Then we'll just steal more from the Alliance! His trajectory as a character makes a lot more sense in hindsight.

In a vain attempt to steer this discussion even slightly on topic, all these Sylvanas threads have definitely gotten me to dig further into WC3 and the like and see that Sylvanas, likewise, didn't experience some sudden, drastic character shift to become evil, at one point being the free will touting messianic savior of the forsaken. She's always been like this. I was particularly surprised to find out her using her banshee abilities to manipulate and enslave entire groups to work for her in retaking Lordaeron. I think it was human bandits, murlocs, and ogres. And she had no qualms about Varimathras doing the same with Garithos and his soldiers.

Garrosh disliked the other races because they took more than they gave. Thrall had turned the orcs into a race of donors, continually committing to others to their own detriment. He also had fairly understandable moral qualms with the Forsaken, and tried to enforce some oversight over them. The elements of his Mists characterization that are off-base is his bizarre tolerance for warlocks and Forsaken just to show he's a bad dude for two patches and then never again and the whole stupidity around capturing, feeding and clothing Theramore survivors for one year just to be a dick when his capital is attacked. Everything else is in line with the character, it's just that the framing contends he's the devil himself while he's essentially just a standard actor in setting surrounded by people who treat his every action like he was chowing down a puppy, Cairne's asspain over a false flag he didn't investigate and everything surrounding Theramore being the key ones. We can add the Heart to that retroactively given how we too spent a whole expansion waving around the claw of an Old God.

As for Sylvanas, she never gave a fuck about others' free will and neither did the Forsaken. You will find lobotomized mind slaves in UC as far back as Vanilla and you do banshee mind control at least in Hillsbrad discarding the part it played in the place's founding. Free will is for those raised. The Forsaken have an extremely myopic moral standard which, especially post-Cata when they decided they were an actual people and not just a walking grievance engine, defined moral good as what benefitted them as a community. That's again, not the issue, it's the ludicrous BTS retcons and her falling double digits in IQ, as well as becoming an old god puppet.

[Powerogue]

After the Defense of Stormwind Raid, as Sylvanas lies on the ground shoulderpadless/defeated, Saurfang goes up to deal the final blow but is stopped by Genn who says "shes ours!". But before anything can happen Taran Zhu appears from the shadows and says "No, it is the Pandaren who have suffered the most, it is we who will decide her fate". Everyone in the room proceeds to beat the snot out of Taran Zhu

Hah, everyone knows this is what'll happen!

[Varodoc]

No it wouldn't, they'd find some bullshit reason for backing down, such as the latest "We can't press our advantage, the trolls are sad". If Varian left with just a stern scolding and shaking his finger at them, do you really think Anduin would do anything? The one constant in Warcraft is the Alliance ALWAYS backs off, forgives, forgets, and gets bent over later for their mercy.

The Alliance hesitated because they would have won the war anyway in a matter of weeks (this is further reinforced by Nathanos claiming that the Horde are losing on every front, implying that the Alliance was advancing on every warfront). So, since their victory was inevitable, they might as well have won with honor. I fully believe that if Jaina and Greymane managed to annihilate the remnants of the Horde fleet, their next and final stop would have been Orgrimmar itself. Sylvanas pretty much relied solely on the Blade of the Black Empire at the beginning of 8.2.

[Feanoro]

won with honor.

The problem is the writers neither understand nor believe in honor, and so use it to mean stupidity.

[FuxieDK]

She's a villain, stop putting quotes.

No she's not.
Stop dictating what other people can or can't do.

Blizzard tried to villainfy her, by having Saurfang turn traitor and Baine go in full defiance.
It have totally blown up in their faces; they have not release any numbers of which players have backed Sylvanas and which have backed Saurfang/Baine, but from reactions on MMO-C and in-game, the vast vast majority stands behind Sylvanas.

This is the reason why, no numbers have been released; they are pulling out hairs to find a way to deal with it, without losing the majority of the Horde player base.

[Varodoc]

The problem is the writers neither understand nor believe in honor, and so use it to mean stupidity.

Which was stupid, don't get me wrong. But it was also understandable. I mean, if the odds are completely in your favour, you might as well just take your time, don't rush, and make sure that history does not remember you as a war criminal. That was the point. After the Battle of Dazar'alor, the Alliance's victory was inevitable, and their main concern at that point was no longer to find a way to defeat Sylvanas, but to make sure history would not remember them like the banshee. Which is stupid if you ask me, because history is written by the victors, so even if they exterminated the people of Orgrimmar, they could just paint it as the "liberation of Orgrimmar" so that future generations would never know the truth.

I really should stop trying to make scenarios where the Alliance does morally grey, borderline evil things. Clearly that is not the direction Blizzard has chosen for this faction. They are spineless/lawful good/lawful stupid.

[Wyrt]

Yes, it's possible because it's the kind of bullshit story I'd expect from Golden and her love for Anduin.

[Papzer]

Oh my.
99% of the people don't give a flying f about the lore, so it wont affect the horde player base either way.
She is a villain at this point. Period

[Varodoc]

Honestly, I don't really care about Sylvanas. I mean, she is annoying, but I'm not one of those people who literally ragequit if she does something bad. I'm almost tempted to wish for a redemption arc just to watch the breakdown of her haters. That would be very entertaining! The story has gone to shit anyway, might as well have a laugh from it.

[Soon-TM]

The story has gone to shit anyway, might as well have a laugh from it.

Yes, the story is a hot mess atm, but it's actually fascinating to wonder how lower can it fall. Cannot wait for 8.2.5 to reveal the Waifu's Master Plan™. I'm sure it will be as cringey as much as it will be entertaining

[Raisei]

No she's not.

Blizzard tried to villainfy her, by having Saurfang turn traitor and Baine go in full defiance.
It have totally blown up in their faces; they have not release any numbers of which players have backed Sylvanas and which have backed Saurfang/Baine, but from reactions on MMO-C and in-game, the vast vast majority stands behind Sylvanas.

This is the reason why, no numbers have been released; they are pulling out hairs to find a way to deal with it, without losing the majority of the Horde player base.

If Blizzard "tried" to villainfy her it was certainly not by the actions of Saurfang and Baine but by her own. Also again I feel like you are trying to convince yourself that this is a recent development. It is not. Sylvanas has been an evil monster for years.

For example, in the Arthas book, we get a nice scene of her testing her new blight on several subjects. Among them: An innocent human girl and several of her own forsaken. This was before the Wrathgate. She straight out murdered her own people and other innocents just to test her killer plague. Then there is the Wrathgate where on her orders hundreds of Horde soldiers get murdered. Next point Gilneas, while okay it is war, people die, Sylvanas never needed to use the blight, she was even forbidden to do it by Garrosh and did it anyway.
During Garroshs Trial she intended to have Vareesa murder him with poison then kill her and her children to raise them as undead (she thought she would do them a favour... which only shows how disturbed she is)

Just a few highlights. Not even touching the recent times of Legion and BFA...

If as you say the number of people backing her as Warchief is really so big, then the vast majority of the Horde needs to think hard on their moral compass or would simply follow any hot elven body, dead or alive. And if you truely think her actions do not mark her as evil I am not sure what would then. We already have genocide and several other atrocities pointing towards that ... not sure how to top that to make you understand the character. Yes, she is also a tragic character and was a victim once but at some point that does stop being a viable excuse.

If Blizzard is pulling out hairs over this then because they cannot fathom that their playerbase wants to follow a morally bankrupt depraved tyrant that wants to kill hope and all life on the planet including her Horde followers to turn it into a blighted wasteland. They are quite understandibly confused.

Now I could understand the wish to roleplay the evil faction, coming from SWTOR I did play Empire mainly, so yeah, we were evil. But even the bloody Sith Empire turned against it`s Emperor when he revealed that he wanted to literally eat the universe. And this is an Empire where you have to be evil and completely ruthless to become a leader (with the odd lightside Sith exception), the Horde is not.

So I just wonder what Sylvanas has to do to actually shock people enough that they will turn on her... I really do, because if genocide is not enough...

[Verdugo]

So I just wonder what Sylvanas has to do to actually shock people enough that they will turn on her... I really do, because if genocide is not enough...

She has to kill Anduin. And Jaina. Yes, that will turn every player against her I am sure!

[Super Dickmann]

So I just wonder what Sylvanas has to do to actually shock people enough that they will turn on her... I really do, because if genocide is not enough...

Her opposition have to be compelling in any way and promise a superior status quo in her absence. Given that they're all interchangable Anduin groupies without a lick of internal conflict and their future is the unifaction, that's impossible. The issue isn't with telling us the morally gray lady is bad, it's where we go from there.

[Raisei]

Her opposition have to be compelling in any way and promise a superior status quo in her absence. Given that they're all interchangable Anduin groupies without a lick of internal conflict and their future is the unifaction, that's impossible. The issue isn't with telling us the morally gray lady is bad, it's where we go from there.

Well, for many people, like the guy I quoted, that acceptance does not yet have come. But I see your point.

While I am not sure why it is so bad to keep a cordial diplomatic relationship with the King of Stormwind, I agree that Baine will run into trouble if made Warchief. He IS weak. He did not have the balls to openly defy Garrosh or Sylvanas despite heavily disagreeing with them. There might even be a case made for him being a Traitor over the Theramore issue. So no, not a future path.

Thal'ryssa is too new, Firepaw... yeah right, Gallywix... not even I want that for the Horde..., Rokhan ... doubtful, Lor'themar barely wants to rule the Belfs....

There is Liadrin. Would be an interesting choice. But she probably has to do a lot of soul searching after helping Sylvanas... unless the Light and Undeath really have a deal going. Saurfang is kind of the natural choice, but many in the Horde and many more players despise him for not helping the genocidal maniac, so problem there.

I think an interesting choice would be someone young that is not yet so marked by loss and trauma that he can only think in terms of death and war. Someone that still believes in the Horde's ideals: Zekhan.
Probably I will get stabbed in the face now, but this is really an interesting possibility. He is after all the one that re-inspired Saurfang, which is quite something.
We have Anduin as one young ruler, with all the old heroes offering council, why does the Horde need to pick one of the old guys to lead? With Saurfang and Thrall councelling, Zekhan could be fun.

[Super Dickmann]

Well, for many people, like the guy I quoted, that acceptance does not yet have come. But I see your point.

While I am not sure why it is so bad to keep a cordial diplomatic relationship with the King of Stormwind, I agree that Baine will run into trouble if made Warchief. He IS weak. He did not have the balls to openly defy Garrosh or Sylvanas despite heavily disagreeing with them. There might even be a case made for him being a Traitor over the Theramore issue. So no, not a future path.

It isn't bad to have peaceseeking characters per se. But when the world bends over backwards to make sure they're right in all instances and the whole cast is composed of such, the plot loses proactivity and conflict, the two ingredients for any story, especially a fantasy war game where bashing all the toys we gathered together is a big part of the appeal. To give an example, the issue with Anduin isn't that he's a peaceful young man thrust into a position of responsibility and wanting to make the world a better place and unite everyone - it's that the whole world conspires to give him a free pass in this. In Legion, his people doubted his ability and he wondered whether he could live up to his father - he didn't want conflict, but neither could he stand up to Genn when it came to Stormheim. This made both characters hold further depth. The same is the case with Baine, it isn't so much that he's a traitor or a human footstool though he is, it's the way these things are framed - the narrative enables him, it doesn't acknowledge or challenge his flaws. Compare either of those messes to Velen - also a benevolent, peaceful character, but one which Legion actually challenged and helped develop.

Re: New Warchief. There are legitimately no good candidates. Ideally we'd have a young orc do it, but there are no young orcs since Mists killed them all. I do think Baine is the likeliest choice though, given his build up and the dev statements about how every race would have their place in the chair. He's a singularly awful pick, but preferable to Thrall in the sense that if Thrall gets in the chair, there's no getting him out, whereas Baine has a larger chance to fail and be replaced.