Originally Posted by
Caerule
I am not completely sure what you mean here. The modern Highborne negotiated themselves back into Night Elf culture, yes. Driven into the forests of Feralas, there was no other safe haven for them at the time.
I feel what I tried to say just didn't get across my meaning here. That's my bad. What I meant was that the culture of the Night Elves has changed severely. And that you equate the Night Elves as they used to be, too much with what they are currently. Specifically, yes, the Nightborne would have fit into the Night Elf culture of 10.000 years ago without all too much trouble. But even though they are still called "Night Elves", Kaldorei culture has changed severely. I therefore think it is false to go "Of course Nightborne would fit in with the Night Elves. Just check back to how it was 10.000 years ago". Times have changed.
The Nightborne were contained beneath a shield. In the Alliance, they would be contained by the rules and restrictions of their peers. The Horde offers freedom to be all you can be. The Nightborne have naturally felt limited. But that doesn't mean they've been frozen. The Nightborne culture we've seen in Suramar has undergone great changes. A people adapted to life in a dome without day and night. They changed appearance. Developed arcane constructs. Evolved their nature and culture to the Nightwell. Began to mark their bodies with arcane tattoos. Learned how to re-forge nature through the arcane. Developed new fashions, language and aesthetics. And new ways of magic and battle. There is a reason they changed their name. These are no longer the Highborne they were. No more than the Highborne that founded Quel'thalas.
Being happy someone doesn't make a decision to join the Burning Legion, doesn't mean you are ready to welcome them in your home. Tyrande and Malfurion represent the more accepting and noble side of Night Elven society, and even they would preferred for the Highborne not to return, had that been an option.
It's not speculation, though. Even you have quoted part of why Thalyssra feels the Alliance is not for them. The Alliance would constrict them. How the Night Elves treated the Highborne makes it clear that this is true. They were expected to conform. And as I have shown from my notes at the start, the Highborne are anything but fully accepted. Sure, Maiev and her loyalists are the ones representing those willing to kill them. But even the Night Elves on the other side, are simply the ones willing to tolerate them out of mercy, or out of respect for Malfurion and Tyrande. A few Night Elves did seek to learn from these mages. For example Vestia Moonspear, who apparently lost several friends due to choosing this path.
Here you are doing that thing again, where you equate Old Kaldorei culture with Modern Night Elves. Old Kaldorei Culture is dead. Its relics are everywhere. Its people went to completely new directions, forging new identities. I can consent that Suramar is meant to show what Highborne culture would have looked like at the height of its power. And indeed, it's as close to an intact Highborne city as you can get. That doesn't mean its people haven't changed.
To be in the Alliance, means you have to conform to some degree. For associating with the Night Elves, this is triply so. The Highborne tolerated into Darnassus were subjected to a lot of restrictions.
I'll debate the first point first, but consider the second one more interesting. The High Elves were there to help defeat Gul'dan, yes. But they did not really show much kinship with these Shal'dorei. We disagree on how much the story of the Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei overlaps. So my argument to the Quel'dorei seeing this too, is not going to convince you. But at the very least, I hope we can agree that if there was such a similarity, the High Elves have more in common with Blood Elves in culture and appearance and still rejected them, and so would be more likely to reject the Nightborne, whom they resemble even less.
The more interesting point is about the Withered. When the level of magic you have grown accustom to has grown higher than natural, you grow dependant on it, and thirst for it when you can no longer reach that level. It's also true that, if the level you have grown accustom to is extremely high, then losing access to enough magic can deteriorate your mind and body. We agree that Withered form that way. But we seem to disagree on Wretched. I always felt that it was not indulging too much power itself, that caused people to become Wretched. But that those that could not control their thirst would consume magic too greedily, and grow accustom to, and dependant on, even higher levels of magic. Worsening their addiction. Which would leave them Wretched if they then could not keep up that level of magic. So in my mind, Withered and Wretched have the same cause. But Nightborne were accustom to a higher level of magic through the Nightwell, than the Blood Elves were through the Sunwell and would thus deteriorate even without indulging too high. The Nightwell's power itself was too high to live without. That's not really a debate, as it is my theory. But I wanted to share my perspective at least.
I'm talking magical elf cities making them sister cities, yes. I think you are underestimating how many Night Elves are from Suramar, by the way. Sure, Tyrande and the Stormrage Twins are from there. But the Night Elven empire was gigantic. World-wide, on a world that was much larger than the current one, where 80% of the former landmass is now ocean. Darnassians don't mostly come from there. In fact, considering that this one city escaped the war by shielding itself, and presumably most of its citizens, it would be a city where the least Night Elves have their origin. As for which race would be the best company to the Nightborne. I would think that would be the one that wanted to be their friend from the start.
I think you misunderstood me. And in the process kind of proved what I was saying. The main reason you think Nightborne are culturally Night Elves, is because they are physically similar to Night Elves. And if they were not, you would not be so obsessed with having them join the Night Elves. It feels like your preference has its basis in appearance.
While I do agree that modern Night Elves are a bit hypocritical for tolerating magic in other cultures but elves, you make it seem like all that they despise is arrogance and recklessness. And that Night Elves would gladly move back into an unnatural arcane city like Suramar otherwise. Compassion does not require kinship, nor a lack of distrust. For over 10.000 years, the Night Elves would kill practitioners of magic. With reluctance, the Highborne refugees were offered sanctuary in Darnassus, under great restrictions and with the expectation to conform. They even warned the Alliance about the High Elves. Highborne might hypothetically love Suramar city. But they lived Highborne city for 10.000 years. Outside of that splinter group, the Night Elves have avoided living that way for 10.000 years.
The city was built by Night Elves. It's clear some of those cultural norms survive. I'll grant you that. I'm willing to concede on this one. Though I do feel that it's hard to call a race nocturnal if they live in an environment where the sky is a glowing dome all day. I think it's equally likely they are named for the Nightwell.
I was explaining why the Blood Elves felt kinship though... Sure, 1 of the 10 points also applies to the Night Elves. Though if you want to get that technical, Azshara happened to all the Elves, and the Blood Elves and Nightborne recently both had to experience it again for a second time. But let's not go down the road of such specifics. I hope you can acknowledge at least, that the Blood Elves and Nightborne have many points in common, as I stated.
Ah, I meant during their time in Dire Maul. Sorry if that was unclear. By the word Outcast, I mean they were unwelcome with the rest of their people. Which I am sure we agree on.
I am not denying that they are of use. But you do seem to forget how their introduction went. I've already gone into it at the start of this post, but you shouldn't forget that it was Mordent that petitioned for his people to be allowed into the city, after his NPC was shown in Darnassus before Cata, petitioning for a meeting with Tyrande, while suffering abusive comments from the guards.
Okay.. At this point I feel maybe you should pick up the book Wolfheart yourself again. I will grant you that the situation likely improved with time. Especially after Maiev's actions likely gaining the Highborne some favor. But it is definitely true that the Highborne were restricted in how often they could use magic, in limited ways, in designated areas with safeguards maintained by druids.
I will grant you that today, the Highborne are probably more trusted. I mean, helping so many people escape the flames of Teldrassil has probably helped many overcome their prejudice. But it also can't be denied that it started off as tolerance, and the Highborne have had to fight for acceptance. Acceptance that likely still is not complete. The losses suffered and 10.000 years of killing on sight isn't so easily undone. I also think it can't be denied that the Highborne have had to adapt and change to fit into the culture of the modern Night Elf.
We do disagree. But I do see us at least slightly getting closer. Or at the very least, honing our positions in their accuracy. In the end, that's all we can do. I hope to have shown you some justification for my points, so that you can at least understand why I hold these opinions.
The final part of this message is you quoting another person about Horde Bias at Blizzard. Honestly, I've always felt the opposite, with Alliance usually getting much nicer things. But that is a discussion for another place.