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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    It's just a numbers game, before we even get into the reasons why or how, if you were to take the lore seriously or realistically, you would agree not everyone is going to go along with or even agree with Thalyssra's decision to take the entire race over. But as Azshara said, there is a reason why she couldn't go higher than First Arcanist.

    However their are plenty of good reasons some nightborne would actually prefer the other side. Not least in the way they introduced them.

    If you were to properly show the nightborne after 7.2, some would prefer the night elves over the blood elves.

    I don’t believe all of a sudden, all the nightborne are perfectly happy with the horde or the blood elves.

    Here are 12 reasons that I feel will convince you that though the race may be allied to the horde atm, there are sufficiently enough plausible cause to believe that a large number would rather be with the night elves.

    1. The horde is behaving exactly like the Legion, and it is not the first time, some nightborne would love this as they did let the legion in, but some would hate this. They would view the slaughter of elven life, their kin, so senselessly, and would hate it.

    2. Blood elves would be viewed as biologically inferior elves by some, because the transition from night elf diminished them - it’s one of the reasons hate for Darnassian night elves is hard to let go - consequently some nightborne would look down on them. Remember Valtrois’ attitude - and we met quite a few worse than her.

    3. Nightborne would view the blood elf part of sucking mana from creatures and demons, even people as utterly repulsive. Valtrois is disgusted at being forced to sift/feed from a key line to sate their addiction and that is a pure source - Withered suck mana fromnpeople and creatures and that mindless state is considered worse than death - some nightborne are going to consider blood elves truly lesser when they find out what the blood elves did and will prefer high elves over them.

    4. Thalyssra in 8.0 declares her people can’t suffer to be the way they’ve been, and in the alliance that stagnation would continue - she may be prepared to change from the Kaldorei ways the nightborne have been in, but you can be certain that there would be those who do not. can be certain there would be nightborne who prefer their ways and certainly don’t think the horde or blood elf ways superior.

    5. Kaldorei saved Suramar both in the Sundering and again from the curse of the nightwell through the Arcan’dor, as well as being instrumental in saving Suramar again from the Legion, s large number of nightborne will likely refuse to fight or kill any Kaldorei andnsome would definitely not view the alliance as enemies.

    6. The nightborne definitely love nature a lot more as evidenced by the botanist and far more plant life in Suramar, also the existence of the arcand'or and the balance they get that comes via nature connects hem strongly to their kaldorei druidic brethren and is bountd to have some nightborne more interested in exploring nature.

    7. Going through 7.0, including WQs in places like Tel'anor, you find the nighborne really revere their night elven roots, in contrast ot the blood elves who are contemptuous and dismissive of it. This is bound to show in many nightborne proud and leaning towards the Kaldroei and generally prefer them.

    8. The Kaldorei have highborne, the alliance have high elves and void elves, they have an elven community that is more like minded ot how the nightborne were before 8.0 , some nightbonre are going to find this far more preferable than the blood elves and the horde.

    9. The nightborne and the night elves share a bond, they are the elves from the city of Suramar, and from the region that famously rebelled against Queen ashara, from the Farondis iin Azsuna, to RAvencrest in black Rook hold,a dn the city of Suramar that had to fendoff a legion invasion, they share that and numerous racial characteristics.. some nightborne are bound to prefer to connect to that.

    10. Nightborne and night elves being nocturnal, and find a shared love and deep connecton to the stars and the moon, plus ofc the races' natural arcane affinity. don't let druidic night elves fool you, they are also talented with the arcane even though they follow the path of nature only.

    11. Nightborne ofc have the shared history, shared age, racial charctersistics that are kaldorei, culturally the kaldorei arcane culture, which is the culture of the highborne, sometimes peopelt hink of the druidic culture and think because Daranassians have had a druidic culture it's nothing like the nightobnre. They'd be right about that, but wrong ato conclude that the nightborne have nothing in common with the night elves. The Highbonre amongst the nighte lves have the exact same culture the nightborne had up till 7.3.5, and the high elvs are more of like mind to the acharacter of both the kaldorei and the nightborne than they are to the blood elves - the position on arcane magic pracitce 7,000 years ago, was where they differed, and the night elves have changed their position (not their view, but their position). They altogether have more in common

    12. Racially, the nightborne are in the night elf category, culturally, they are not blood elves, they are kaldorei pre-sundering night elves. Evidence is in their saber mounts, their appearance, their city with all the Kaldorei symbols and architecture, states and positions which are described in War of the ancients : Well of Eternity and visually portrayed as Kaldorei. While they may have similarities, they are different.l
    Well some High Elves we literally see preferring being on the Alliance and just look how playable they are *eyeroll*

    Look, I'd love if a group of Nightborne decided this whole Horde thing was a mistake and defected to the Alliance, but historically the High Elves prove that no matter how much you can be on the opposite faction, Blizz likes to conflate political ideology with race. It's silly, but that's just how it is.

  2. #102
    Warchief Zenny's Avatar
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    Oh come on, Nightborne are basically palette swapped Blood Elves.

  3. #103
    The horse is dead already. Why do you still beat it?

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikazukinoyaiba View Post
    Is this Mace guy have a job irl?
    I bet he is a lawyer exercising here.
    I give my flesh and blood freely to the Warchief. I am the instrument of my Warchief's desire. I am a weapon of my Warchief's command.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread

  5. #105
    Hey look it's Mace talking about how the Alliance totally deserves all elves. And sure enough, there are his high elf fan buddies defending him. Cause a dead horse beating needs to be defended by a similar dead horse beating.

  6. #106
    Pit Lord Tenebra's Avatar
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    Why do people give a shit about night elves? In Legion they were a worse asspull than the void elves. But unlike the void elves, they are ugly as shit. Have you seen the males?! They are disgusting (what are those big ass hands). And the females have literally only one or two decent hairstyles. Nothing of value was lost. Void elves >>>> Nightborne.
    Remember, control demands sacrifice. Power never comes without a price. You risk losing those closest to you in order to save them. This is the bargain we have made.

  7. #107
    SECTION 2 - To follow


    Quote Originally Posted by Caerule View Post
    I will grant you that I can't prove there are no Nightborne that are of the opinions you have given. As I explained though, in a setting like this, we can't really consider small exceptions. The burden of proof here lies on the claim that the amount of people that feel like this is significant. High enough in number that it would justify it being a playable portion of the population, for whom this conviction lies strong enough that they would reject their race's and leaders current path, and choose to join the Night Elves. If this can't be sufficiently justified, than Blizzard can't make this a legit development, as you desire them to. I've acknowledged that not all individuals will think alike. But, like the few hypothetical Orc Paladins in the Argent Dawn, those small exceptions in my opinion would not justify becoming a playable option.
    I think you are generally right here, the burden of proof is more on me, but I can't prove the nightborne are of the opinions I have given either, it really is more a speculation thing here, as in if blizzard were being realistic based on what they presented of the faction of night elves, there would be at least some, and likely a good portion preferring the kaldorei - you would even have some view themselves as stars appointed lot to restore their people, that's a 13th possibility right there.

    What we quickly realise in Warcraft is that blizzard seldom goes all the way in showing groups or races' reactions to huge events. I wrote this topic after a discussion with some.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caerule View Post
    The Night Elves were the ones to cut the Highborne out of the Kaldorei. Quel'thalas was founded by the Highborne that the Night Elves banished from Kalimdor. Night Elves made the use of magic punishable by death. Unable to abandon magic, the Highborne violated the ban. Rather than kill them all, they were banished. The Highborne founded Quel'thalas to reforge a Highborne kingdom of magic. Over time, they would evolve and become known as High Elves. They were more cautious than they were before. But Quel'thalas certainly was created by the Highborne, to recreate their past glory.
    The jist of what you are saying is correct, it's just how you have said it. The Darnassians - (or rather the Long vigil Night elves, not the night elf race) were the ones to ban the Highborne - but the ban was specifically targeted at the highborne who followed Darth'remar - ban instead of cut off, and Darth'remar's group were the ones who revitalised that caste system that group had left behind. Remember the other groups like the shen'dralar and those in Suramar who were still night elves at this point, hadn't left that system behind.

    I wouldn't say Darth'remar's highborne wre "unable" to abandon magic, sure some might view it that way, they chose to return to arcane magic. They had complied with the ban for 3,000 years until that time, all the survivor group, the stars of the War of the ancients we believed were the only night elves remaining until 1.1 and 7.0 showed a few more (which lets be fair, is actually more realistic, especially if ht elong vigil group isolated themselves, and so did the shend'ralar and the Suramar night elves were under an impenetrable shield - the magic of Suramar would have been undetectavble because of the shield, and lal the shen'drlaar needed to do, which they did, was celvely mask their arcane signature - I mean they were the brightest of the arcanists - afterall they provided the cutting edge magical wonders the Queen wow''d her people with - it makes sense they would be able to pull a demon after the sundering, and work it such that their magic was undetected by the magic suppressing pactof the long vigil night elvs, demi gods and dragons (especially given no blues were involved after the sundering).

    Darth'remar's group returned to the arcane because they felt it was time for the night elves to now start finding ways to move forward rather than in this state constantly. HE tried to convince the druids that magic could be used without alerting the demons, or ways couldb e found. his philosophy was that the arcane was too powerful a tool to leave under utilised. Malfurion felt it might have been addiction causing them to be so reckless - afterall, who would take such a risk with using the arcane knowing it could alert the demon that the Well was still around and lead them straight back to Azeroth - afterall the night elves knew that it was the using of the arcane through the Well of eternity that lit Azeroth up like a beacon in the twisting nether. Beings in that realm can detect arcane signature and are drawn to it. This is how the legion first made contact, and ALL night elves were capable arcane wielders even those who weren't talented enough to be mages. War of the Ancients described the night elves as learning how to cast spells before reading and writing (or along side it, before they could walk or something like that - which is what Suramar in 7.0 shows - it surpirses me how ignorant many fans are of the night elves when they see Surmaar and thing it's nothing to do with the night elves.. blizzard literally lifted Suramar from the pages of the Well of Eternity and expanded on that, showing a more realistic and fuller picture, as you would expect if you could delve into the era in many areas a narrative like a novel might not fully show.. and is why I feel an exercise like this topic isn't all that useless, because sometimes when blizzard come back to a topic, they definitely flesh it out more realistically.)

    Anyway this is why the highborne who become high elves consider the night elves cowards and superstitious - note it is the high elves that felet his way, not all highborne that survived - the shend'ralar and nightborne groups do not, because they don't have this piece of history. The long vigil kaldorei would have been a bit wary ofDarth'remar's groups because they were the hgihborne directly inovled iin summoning the leigion, and while I think they were trusted to a point because they ended up joining the fight with Tyrande, let's not forget what they were doing, and that the Shen'dralar and Suramar highborne do not have the same levels of mistrust. I reckon if it was the shen'drlaar or the Suramar highborne making the case,they would have had a higher chance of success, the palace highborne were the worse of the worse, but Darth'remar's group proves that even amongst them, there was nobility. Farondis highborne show what the caste was like before it became reckless, arrogant and addicted - very noble, and Suramar shows that the society was not as terrible as people think, sure there were arrogant jerks, but also nobility and good people like Silgryn, Vanthi'r, Margeau, Arluin and many other characters we meet that weren't all jerks or stuffy arrogant elites, Thalyssra herself included. Valtrois shows that you can be arrogant but not that much of a jerk.

    Long and short is that, Darth'remars group made a conscious choice they felt it was important for the night elves to pick up their mantle. MAlfurion's view was that given the chance of abuse (addiction wasn't solved yet either), why take that risk when you could live life just fine without the arcane like they had been doing for the last 3,000 years. Malfurion is a druid, he was fine with the current lifestyle of the kaldorei of the long vigil, ofc he would be, the priests , sentinels, and other former highborne/moonguard I don't think ever were, but they put up with it because of the danger using the arcane posed (i.e. drawing back the legion) and that was too big a risk, and even 3,000 years in, I think many of them still felt guilt and shame, the lore says, they were pained and horrified at what they caused and this sent them into isolation - which gave me the impression that part of the reason that particular night elf group endured the long vigil for so long was a guilty conscience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caerule View Post
    Some knowledge from the time was indeed lost. As well as lots of secrets. The main reason they were more powerful though, is because they were empowered with the Well of Eternity. It can't be underestimated how powerful this made the Night Elves. The Well of Eternity on Mount Hyjal was made with just 3 vials of its water. The Sunwell is made with only 1 vial. The magic the Highborne of old wielded was much more powerful because of that, which also means more powerful items could be created. But that does not mean that the magic was more advanced by today's standards. Spells were more powerful, because even a novice mage had access to great power from the Well of Eternity. Without that, modern mages are superior. I believe Rhonin may have demonstrated this in the Well of Eternity trilogy.
    The reason I disagree here is the conclusion you reach. Sure the power was greater in the pre-sundering empire, but the thing about the nigh telf civilization that is emphasized the most iwas never the power they had, but the wonder and level of advancement.

    time and time again, yous ee this in the older literature, it is re-emphasized in both cataclysm ("the magic of this age pales in comparsion to the one of the past) and in legion again. the narrative explains "mosto f the knowledge of the night elves was lost") and this fits what we experience, all their cities are destroyed.. (Eldre'thalas and Surmar are also thought lost) so to the long vigil group, including the highborne who would become high elves and those who would later on rejoin a shend'ralar rebuilt order in cata), the large and vast majority of the night elves knowledge is lost to THEM only. This is the group that rebuilds magic and teaches it to the humans. For them, a lot of magic is lost compared to the night elf empire, although tot he humans it is all new. once the humans start learning too, everyone -human and high elf treasure and prize ancient night elven books they find because of the vast knowledge they contain.

    Suramar and eldre'thalas are a treasure trove when they are discovered by modern world socieites because of all the knowledge they hold, the shen'dralar and nightborne are the only night elven groups that didn't lose the vast knowledge, their cities were hidden, thought lost, and the long vigil kaldorei didn't bother to dig up anything from the past, in fact we see them only bohterin g to do so after the cataclysm has happened and the highborne order has returned. Prior to that, in lassic they want you to leave the past buried and are quite ashamed at the satyrs, you imagine they find the ruins a painful reminder both of what they lost, what their hubris caused them to lose.

    The character of the night elf is benevolent, and for all their addiction, these people wanted the best for their world, beauty, growth, both in nature and cities and structures they built.. that is their character, only to have their greatest leader and their race sleep walk into a force such as the legion. I have never felt the night elves hated their civilziaiton - it was incredible, not only beautiful, but also in harmony with nature, and life was good, even when the arcane was able to do most htings for them, that wasn't a bad thing.. what they hated is how arrogant and addicted they became, their over reliance on arcane caused their standards to lapse, their arrogance is largely what caused this. It's like our view of technology , no identical but similar in the sense that it can do incredible things, but we have also become arrogant, some of us anyway, especially the elite in our society (not all the elite), except magic is less harmful than technology, and the night elves used magic extremely responsibly until they got addicted and the Queen started becoming reckless with it.

    So, before I digress further, i'll just say, that the knowledge and lost stuff is a lot more than yout hink, and it doesn't necessarily have much to do with power. THe well of eternity may have allowd them to develop far more things, at a faster and more intense pace, but the knowledge they gained is knowledge regardless of the power, you need the power ot make a great engine work, but it is the knowledge of how to build the energy that you can have regardless of whether you have the power to operate it.

    The night elves had a global empire where arcane studiy and progress was the what their entire civilziaiton was geared towards, this is millions of people, companies creating all kinds of things, and discovering all kinds of things. The sheer vlume of knowledge would surpass anything that the high elves or any group would attain before we even consider power. To be in complete unity - do you know how much progress we can make,? they didn't have to suffere continuous conflicts like the highe lves or humans have had to, once they defeated eneies, that was it, no one was able to challenge them, they had supremacy and peace world wide - the amount of progress you an make.

    then ofc there are thigns that would not be able to do without a large enough source to drive them, the great works, the high elves or humans would not be able to invent new kinds of great works because they don't have that sort of power either.. therefore the knowledge ability would be much lower.

    They would likely be capable if they had the same sources, but bear in mind, the night elf by design is able to handle and process arcane better than any race, that is their strongest suit, it doesn't mean arcane is th eonly thing night elve like clearly, the long vigil group was able to successfully go without it for 10,000 years, but they are genetically able to process it better and is why I suspect that the high elf woo is a diminished night elf actually got addiction from passive suffusion, the reduced capacity made something that should not have caused a problem actually cause a problem. They wanted to advoid repeating the misakes of the past completely when they founded quel'thalas. This includes addiction, so they were careful, I can easily see that one factor they may have failed to factor in was that their own changed bodies were less capable of dealing with the same level of arcane suffusion they would have had no problems with as night elves. Secondly, the night elves always had nature , even in their most addicted phase of the pre-sundering era (around the time of the invasion), nature we find out from 7.0 is a balancer of sorts against addiction. You prevent addiciotn by living a balanced lifestyle, I interprete this as while you can do everything with the arcane, don't, you still need to use your body and shouldn't rely only on the arcane or it imblanaces you, like a person who can eat a lot of food, food like arcane is good for you, makes you grow, stimulates your brain, gives you more energy etc, but if you don't exercise, if youd on't control your eating, you get obese and cause health problems. Sure you're bigger, but you're not the best you can be, you will flag behind in other areas, but something that is oridinarily good for you, can become bad for you. it isn't identical comparsion but it is the closest thing, the nighborne got chronically ill without ingesting the arcane (without arcwine, they would become withered, being suffused by the nightwell WAS NOT ENOUGH - it is possible they weren't suffused at any point, who knows, we just kknow they needed to ingest the stuff to live, because they had run out of natural food under the shield, but by the time it comes down, their bodies now can't operate without it, they become lessened, which is dangerous to you overall. Sources of food are frr easier to come by than sources of magic, so you're at a disadvantage in this state - which is hwy it took the balancing of nature to fix it.

    Part 3 -TBC
    I will come to the rest of your post another time. Would you like me to edit this one with the additions? or just post the rest in a new topic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caerule View Post
    You are right that most of the Night Elf mages the Horde faces in their quests are novices. But the Night Elf spells are also described as "laughably primitive magics".
    That's bluster, it's like when races call each other savages for attacking, we know this is not the case at all, the blood elf in character is typically quite arrogant, and isn't been flattering about his enemies, same goes for the horde throughout the cata quests, you only need play horde side in Azshara, Ashenvale, stonetalon etc to see the stuff they say about the night elves. Is it true in the literal sense.. ofc not.

    The situation explains itself, he sends the horde hero against new night elf novice mages, and returned Darnassian highborne who have been 10k years out of practice, he doesn't face any of the shen'dralar - (this is clear immediately if you understood the shen'dralar, but blizzard actually confirmed this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Caerule View Post
    The Dire Maul Highborne still consider themselves Highborne. But both the Shal'dorei and Sin'dorei cultures were founded by the original Highborne, and changed to form their own racial identity over time. Both value their legacy. But neither refers to themselves as the Highborne anymore, having changed and grown. It is their legacy. The Nightborne have not remained frozen for 10.000 years. They are much different, and have changed their name to reflect this.
    The Sin'dorei culture, the high elf is not founded on the original kaldorei pre-sundering civilizaiton. There is no distinction between highborne culture and non-highborne culture in the pre-sundering civliziation - it is all kaldorei .

    The sin'dorei follow on from what was established as high elves. The high elves built a new magical culture they believed to be superior to the kaldorei and intended it to surpass thet one in every way - from atitudes, and culture through to scope, magical expertise, excellence etc.

    They did not build their culture based or founded on the highborne culture.. The highborne culture was nocturnal, it was very rigidly hierarchal lik night elves are even in the long vigil (male and female distinctive roles), they didn't have the light either, but Elune - religion is a major influence of culture, plus the night elven love of nature we see in every pre-sundering city, including Eldre'thalas, Zin'Azshari and Suramar. Furthermore, the attidue is different, in the invasion period of the pre=sundering era, the kaldorei highborne were dominated by addiction and recklessness, decadence and hubris - this is not the high elven way or culture, it was indeed superior both in character and attitude.

    THe only similarity is that they both practice arcane magic freely. The night elf empire was dominated by the arcane to a much larger sense..both the shen'drlaar and nightborne are the arcane side of the culture, and it is almost entirely arcane. This is not the same for the high elves, who have priests, farstrider hunters, paladins, they also have a completely different set of circumstances, friends, enemies. They become intwined with the humans as of 3,000 years ago, this is about 4,000 years into their history. The forefront of magical warfare shifts from Quel'thalas to the Council of Tirisfal.

    everything is different, and this is why the two are so different, and is why you can enjoy kaldorei arcane civilization in Suramar or amongst the She'n'drlaar and understand it is different. It is not the same.

    Shal'dorei culture isn't founded on the highborne culture at all, IT IS the kaldorei pre-sundering culture up to 7.3.5 , it is not a new culture, it is not a shift in culture, learning chronomancy magic throught he Eye of Aman'thul studies is not a cultural change or shift. In Suramar you are seeing what blizzard idn't show in Eldre'thalas because it was about 1,000 years in slow decay/decline, it's culture like all pre-sundering night elf cities of the era would be exactly like you see in Suramar. Suramar shows you a snapshot of the KALDOREI .. not just the highborne the kaldorei society, at the stage fo the invasion - not how they were like prerior to addiciotn - the Farondis show that, Suramar is how they are like in the thores of it without seeing the priestly influence. This is how the civilians and the highborne would have life characterised by. The shal'dorei like the shen'drlar would have both had a missing priesthood, however they didn't instigate a change of religion or anything like the high elves did..most of the arcane focused users at that time of the kaldorei pre-sundering era (both highborne and non-highborne) cared very little about anything but the arcane.. thesuramar in 7.0 shows you a natural progression of that state the nighte lves were in, which was ARCANE only.

    This is in stark contrast to the high elves, who had many other things going on. They practised all beneficial magics FREELY, including the arcane. While one of their strongest suits, it wasn't the all consuming focus of high elf society. You had developments in other things and areas -- the priests, the farstriders .. this is exacerbated by the fact that the high elves hated all things kaldorei after their expulsion.. bad memories from the invasion period of the pre-sundering era when hubris, addiction, arrogance warped their views, and decadence in lifestyle with no real purpose, then the horror of explusion as their kin failed to see the value of the very thing that the elves would need to to defend the world most.

    Notice even without an order of elune, this is not the position of the nightborne or the shen'dralar, they're just in arcane focused socieities, they don't hate nature, the wilds nor Elune, they probably just feel they've no need for them because the arcane is far more fascinating.. theya re literally the arcane culture of the kaldorei, the arcane wielding group , while 2 other major groups exist in the Order of elune and the druids, with a 4th major but much smaller in number demon hunter group.

    Part 3 -TBC
    I will come to the rest of your post another time. Would you like me to edit this one with the additions? or just post the rest in a new topic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caerule View Post

    I am not completely sure what you mean here. The modern Highborne negotiated themselves back into Night Elf culture, yes. Driven into the forests of Feralas, there was no other safe haven for them at the time.


    I feel what I tried to say just didn't get across my meaning here. That's my bad. What I meant was that the culture of the Night Elves has changed severely. And that you equate the Night Elves as they used to be, too much with what they are currently. Specifically, yes, the Nightborne would have fit into the Night Elf culture of 10.000 years ago without all too much trouble. But even though they are still called "Night Elves", Kaldorei culture has changed severely. I therefore think it is false to go "Of course Nightborne would fit in with the Night Elves. Just check back to how it was 10.000 years ago". Times have changed.


    The Nightborne were contained beneath a shield. In the Alliance, they would be contained by the rules and restrictions of their peers. The Horde offers freedom to be all you can be. The Nightborne have naturally felt limited. But that doesn't mean they've been frozen. The Nightborne culture we've seen in Suramar has undergone great changes. A people adapted to life in a dome without day and night. They changed appearance. Developed arcane constructs. Evolved their nature and culture to the Nightwell. Began to mark their bodies with arcane tattoos. Learned how to re-forge nature through the arcane. Developed new fashions, language and aesthetics. And new ways of magic and battle. There is a reason they changed their name. These are no longer the Highborne they were. No more than the Highborne that founded Quel'thalas.


    Being happy someone doesn't make a decision to join the Burning Legion, doesn't mean you are ready to welcome them in your home. Tyrande and Malfurion represent the more accepting and noble side of Night Elven society, and even they would preferred for the Highborne not to return, had that been an option.


    It's not speculation, though. Even you have quoted part of why Thalyssra feels the Alliance is not for them. The Alliance would constrict them. How the Night Elves treated the Highborne makes it clear that this is true. They were expected to conform. And as I have shown from my notes at the start, the Highborne are anything but fully accepted. Sure, Maiev and her loyalists are the ones representing those willing to kill them. But even the Night Elves on the other side, are simply the ones willing to tolerate them out of mercy, or out of respect for Malfurion and Tyrande. A few Night Elves did seek to learn from these mages. For example Vestia Moonspear, who apparently lost several friends due to choosing this path.


    Here you are doing that thing again, where you equate Old Kaldorei culture with Modern Night Elves. Old Kaldorei Culture is dead. Its relics are everywhere. Its people went to completely new directions, forging new identities. I can consent that Suramar is meant to show what Highborne culture would have looked like at the height of its power. And indeed, it's as close to an intact Highborne city as you can get. That doesn't mean its people haven't changed.

    To be in the Alliance, means you have to conform to some degree. For associating with the Night Elves, this is triply so. The Highborne tolerated into Darnassus were subjected to a lot of restrictions.


    I'll debate the first point first, but consider the second one more interesting. The High Elves were there to help defeat Gul'dan, yes. But they did not really show much kinship with these Shal'dorei. We disagree on how much the story of the Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei overlaps. So my argument to the Quel'dorei seeing this too, is not going to convince you. But at the very least, I hope we can agree that if there was such a similarity, the High Elves have more in common with Blood Elves in culture and appearance and still rejected them, and so would be more likely to reject the Nightborne, whom they resemble even less.

    The more interesting point is about the Withered. When the level of magic you have grown accustom to has grown higher than natural, you grow dependant on it, and thirst for it when you can no longer reach that level. It's also true that, if the level you have grown accustom to is extremely high, then losing access to enough magic can deteriorate your mind and body. We agree that Withered form that way. But we seem to disagree on Wretched. I always felt that it was not indulging too much power itself, that caused people to become Wretched. But that those that could not control their thirst would consume magic too greedily, and grow accustom to, and dependant on, even higher levels of magic. Worsening their addiction. Which would leave them Wretched if they then could not keep up that level of magic. So in my mind, Withered and Wretched have the same cause. But Nightborne were accustom to a higher level of magic through the Nightwell, than the Blood Elves were through the Sunwell and would thus deteriorate even without indulging too high. The Nightwell's power itself was too high to live without. That's not really a debate, as it is my theory. But I wanted to share my perspective at least.


    I'm talking magical elf cities making them sister cities, yes. I think you are underestimating how many Night Elves are from Suramar, by the way. Sure, Tyrande and the Stormrage Twins are from there. But the Night Elven empire was gigantic. World-wide, on a world that was much larger than the current one, where 80% of the former landmass is now ocean. Darnassians don't mostly come from there. In fact, considering that this one city escaped the war by shielding itself, and presumably most of its citizens, it would be a city where the least Night Elves have their origin. As for which race would be the best company to the Nightborne. I would think that would be the one that wanted to be their friend from the start.


    I think you misunderstood me. And in the process kind of proved what I was saying. The main reason you think Nightborne are culturally Night Elves, is because they are physically similar to Night Elves. And if they were not, you would not be so obsessed with having them join the Night Elves. It feels like your preference has its basis in appearance.


    While I do agree that modern Night Elves are a bit hypocritical for tolerating magic in other cultures but elves, you make it seem like all that they despise is arrogance and recklessness. And that Night Elves would gladly move back into an unnatural arcane city like Suramar otherwise. Compassion does not require kinship, nor a lack of distrust. For over 10.000 years, the Night Elves would kill practitioners of magic. With reluctance, the Highborne refugees were offered sanctuary in Darnassus, under great restrictions and with the expectation to conform. They even warned the Alliance about the High Elves. Highborne might hypothetically love Suramar city. But they lived Highborne city for 10.000 years. Outside of that splinter group, the Night Elves have avoided living that way for 10.000 years.


    The city was built by Night Elves. It's clear some of those cultural norms survive. I'll grant you that. I'm willing to concede on this one. Though I do feel that it's hard to call a race nocturnal if they live in an environment where the sky is a glowing dome all day. I think it's equally likely they are named for the Nightwell.


    I was explaining why the Blood Elves felt kinship though... Sure, 1 of the 10 points also applies to the Night Elves. Though if you want to get that technical, Azshara happened to all the Elves, and the Blood Elves and Nightborne recently both had to experience it again for a second time. But let's not go down the road of such specifics. I hope you can acknowledge at least, that the Blood Elves and Nightborne have many points in common, as I stated.


    Ah, I meant during their time in Dire Maul. Sorry if that was unclear. By the word Outcast, I mean they were unwelcome with the rest of their people. Which I am sure we agree on.


    I am not denying that they are of use. But you do seem to forget how their introduction went. I've already gone into it at the start of this post, but you shouldn't forget that it was Mordent that petitioned for his people to be allowed into the city, after his NPC was shown in Darnassus before Cata, petitioning for a meeting with Tyrande, while suffering abusive comments from the guards.


    Okay.. At this point I feel maybe you should pick up the book Wolfheart yourself again. I will grant you that the situation likely improved with time. Especially after Maiev's actions likely gaining the Highborne some favor. But it is definitely true that the Highborne were restricted in how often they could use magic, in limited ways, in designated areas with safeguards maintained by druids.


    I will grant you that today, the Highborne are probably more trusted. I mean, helping so many people escape the flames of Teldrassil has probably helped many overcome their prejudice. But it also can't be denied that it started off as tolerance, and the Highborne have had to fight for acceptance. Acceptance that likely still is not complete. The losses suffered and 10.000 years of killing on sight isn't so easily undone. I also think it can't be denied that the Highborne have had to adapt and change to fit into the culture of the modern Night Elf.


    We do disagree. But I do see us at least slightly getting closer. Or at the very least, honing our positions in their accuracy. In the end, that's all we can do. I hope to have shown you some justification for my points, so that you can at least understand why I hold these opinions.

    The final part of this message is you quoting another person about Horde Bias at Blizzard. Honestly, I've always felt the opposite, with Alliance usually getting much nicer things. But that is a discussion for another place.
    To be continued
    Last edited by Mace; 2019-09-02 at 07:11 PM.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    SECTION 1 I will go through each bullet point and the paragraph at the end sharing my comments and thoughts, and why we have reached the conclusions we have reached.
    Sorry for the late reply Mace. It has been an extremely busy week for me. I don't intend for my response to be as long as it was before, this time. In the end, we will have things we will come to agree on, things we will never agree on given our different perspectives, and things still worth debating. I'll try to keep my focus on the latter. I do appreciate you taking the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    1. a) Yes, they feel ostrascized, but the main source is Maiev,
    b) a process malfurion thinks would take a few years only, but that is before discovering Maiev is the one stirring up resistance to their inclusion. notice that it is reasonable to interpret that Malfurion reckons completely getting over the war of the ancients distrust is what would take years - for others reading in, it is not the night elves' position on the arcane, or disturst of the arcane that is scrutinised here, but the highborne from Shen'dralar and lifting the overall ban on any highborne.
    c) There is a lot of support for the highborne, including Malfurion and Tyrande, they want all the Kaldorei to be okay with this.
    In this section of the book, no one has yet been murdered. And there is no clue in the book that Maiev turned more than her loyal Wardens against the Highborne. So I disagree that the perceived ostracizing is caused by Maiev. I will agree that people's hatred is majorly about the Highborne and how they wield their magic. Not magic itself. I feel that as the Highborne are the only ones in Night Elf society to have used magic, that the two are thus closely entwined in people's mind. But that's one of those things we will not agree on. So I will limit my argument to "Maiev not to blame". Malfurion and Tyrande have granted the displaced Nightborne sanctuary. A decision they would naturally like to work out.

    2. This is naturally to be expected, because this is the place they are telling the story of how the Darnassian night elves get over the remainder of their distrust for the highborne.
    a) Note that once accepted, there isn't any distrust any longer. Acceptance means they are trusting them, the whole point of the negotaitions was to bring the two groups to the point of mutual trust.
    b) Also note that in support of this, there is no indication of distrust in any literature or Kaldorei presentation between Darnassian and Highborne - an indication that the goal of the negotiation was reached after Maiev's plot is uncovered.
    c) Also note the conditions the highborne make, that Malfurion agrees and assures them himself, Tyrande and others are supporting and will fully expect. This effectively talks about NO restrictions on magic. No forcing to accept Darnassian culture, they have total control on how magic is practised and how much, they also pick the candidates for arcane magic study, and these candidates become highborne.
    Okay, I'm going to argue with this one a lot. The negotiations taking place, were to let the Worgen into the Alliance. There were no negotiations with the Highborne in the book, besides repeated and failed attempts to have the limits on how, when and where they practice magic to be loosened. The book speaks a lot of their restrictions on magic. I really don't see where you are getting that they had no restrictions. I can't concede on this point at, all unless you can find proof for me that they had total control of how magic and can pick candidates for arcane magic study.

    3. a) Note the word used is "uncomfortable" -- not distrusting, not dislikeing, not hating - also note that the source of the distrust is linked to the anger Malfurion expresses on the shen'dralar's role in the war of the ancients, but notice we are shown who actually hates (i.e. Maiev) and some may be uncomfortable, but they'll get over it full time.
    b) Ask yourself why would the night elves do this? then look at the situation.. in all fairness although you might be angry at them for taking so long to join the war of the ancients - they did join it, they did oppose Queen Azshara, and an Ancient fought for and beside them. They also come uncorrupted and free of addiction, with intentions to help.
    c) Also note the Long vigil is over.. the reason for banning the arcane doesn't exist anymore, the night elves also don't hate the arcane, the night elves are no longer in the long vigil - they are out of isolation, and rebuilding again - it's life sort of back to how it was a long time ago.

    - the logical reasons for the night elves to hate the arcane, limit or restrict it or the highborne, oppose arcane magic aren't there. It is only overcoming old prejudices, you can see why Malfurion is quite optimistic, he also feels the night elves need to move forward..and he's a druid.
    - if the night elves were all like Maiev, then I would once again seriously question and doubt blizzard's capacity to write or stick to the characteristics of the races.. you can't describe a race as super intelligent, wise with over 10k years of experience and geneirally benevolent and expect them to still be
    It feels like the end of your sentence got cut off. Regardless, tolerance of magic, and intelligence, are not linked. Malygos was supposedly the most intelligent mind on the planet, and he did not want mortals to have magic. I think Uncomfortable works well as an opposite of Happily Welcoming in this case. Also, while it is true that the Shan'dralar were forced to defend their city from demons when Azshara unleashed them onto Azeroth, they weren't among the Highborne that joined with the rebel army. Those Highborne were the ones later banished to the Eastern Kingdoms. The Shan'dralar defended their city, and then isolated themselves there for 10.000 years.

    4. That is not the agreement that was negotiated. As mentioned above, the deal Malfurion is arguing for is the full terms presented by the highborne. This also correlates with logic.
    a) The difficulty the night elves have post WC3 is not with arcane or the practice of it, it was the anger of the highborne attitude and their role in the war of the ancients. It is not the magic they hated either, or the civilization - it was the addiction and reckless /abusive and decadent use of magic that led to the unthinkable for night elves - summoning a world destroying force, fully aware of their intentions.
    b) night elves don't have a problem with the arcane source itself - it lifted them out of darkness, made them who they were, extends life, boosts intelligence, stature - the energy can be utilised to boost nature too and cleanse impurities when blessed by the priestess. It's only drawback was during the long vigil - it could summon the legion
    Okay, you really need to read the book again. That was exactly the agreement negotiated. The Highborne may only practice their magic on occasion, in limited way, in designated areas with safeguards. The book is very clear on these terms. On a less argumentative note, how most Night Elves view the arcane, is one of those things we will not come to agree on, and so probably do not need to discuss further. In my view, you do not maintain a society for 10.000 years where arcane magic is punishable by death, without demonizing magic itself. And while the behavior of the Highborne may have been responsible for its misuse, I do not believe people can objectively untangle the use of magic, from nature and behavior of the only wielders in their culture they have experience with as mages. Cultures and minds don't tend to work that way, in my opinion.

    5. Yes.. If I remember right, the shen'dralar neeed the allegiance too, as do the Darnassians. This is not all 1-sided like some people foolishly think. Both sides have something the other needs. It wasn't the Dranassians dictating terms to the shen'dralar. The Darnassians needed the power of the arcane back, they show they aren't as prejudiced as some fnas think because they've been allied to arcane wilelding humans, high elves and draenei - the problem with the Thalassians is no longer the arcane, in TBC the problem is with the blood elves recklessly using magic, which is something the high elves do not, then blood elves killing night elves too.

    b) The night elves need the magical power, the shen'dralar need allies. According to a blizz panel the year before, the Shen'dralar had discovered Deathwing's plot and Azshara is trying to poach them after the events of Dire Maul instance. They are without a city, weaned off of addiction and corruption, and have likely encountered the druids in Feralas, which is why we are told by them in Cataclysm Feralas zone that Estulan is uncorrupted for instance.

    The night elves are beset by enemies, they have a powerful birthright heritage, and ancient experts willing to join their side who are not corrupted or addicted. The shen'dralar want to survive and rebuild, restore tehir city and legacy, they want to freely practice magic without getting all addicted and compromised like before. They are proud of their hertage and want to restore their peoples.

    c) And so anyone looking in knows its a win win situation for both sides.. which is why Malfurion is confident about the proposal, and why Tyrande also supports it.. only those with an irrational prejudice would oppose - and this is shown to be maiev, who actively tries to stir up hatred.
    You're thinking of this rationally, from the perspective of an adventurer that's seen the world and all its culture. The average Night Elf's experience with other cultures isn't as wide as Malfurion's. Heck, the main reason people end up on their side, is because every other person of influence that large sections of the Night Elven population would likely side with, get exposed as Evil. Azshara, Illidan, Fandrel Staghelm, Maiev. And I've already stated that I do not think she was stirring up hatred beyond the Wardens. Hatred existed. Night Elves carry loss with them a loooong time. That said, I will grant you that you are likely correct that, in the wake of the Cataclysm, there were advantages for the Night Elves as well, to bringing new wielders of power back into the fold.

    6 a) Liking is not the issue here, neither does it say no one likes the highborne. I find it very hard to believe that the highborne order is not only accepted, but has streams of night elves joining it, has former highborne returning to the institution if it wasn't liked by anyone or the race didn't believe in their potential here - it doesn't fit the narrative , nor what we know of the night elves.
    b) Everyone distrusts them is not true at all. Shandris is shown to distrust the order of highborne thalyssra is connected o - i.e. the ones who drwew the legion, I believe she is speaking generally of the highborne order in the mindset of Azshara and her lackeys, not those who have been reformed and operating in their right mind. I see no reason for her to distrust them or the likes of the Farondis either - unless she was as erratic and insane as Maiev is.. which she is not. She is also quick to turst Thalyssra as well, acknowledging Thalyssra's points.. it feels more like mistrust directed at a hordeie rather than all highborne of all eras and of all times.
    c) Flamboyance is not a sin or a dislike amongst night elves that I have ever seen. Druids like Malfuiron preferred very simple clothing and lifestyle, but that's the Order's way. The priests aren't like that, Monks are like that, but mages aren't - some orders require you to be austere,it's in their philosophy. to claim they hate flamboyance is misleading.
    Arrogance - yes, without a doubt most Darnassians would hate arrogance, also without a doubt Darnassians have shown arrogance too, the whole building of Teldrassil, their " proud" new home was an act of hubris - even though their nature isn't that and they hate it. Arrogance is not a reliable metric.
    Furthermore we can see that some of theshen'darlar highborne aren't haughty or arrogant - I can't say Mordant Evenshade or Estulan comes across.

    Saying that, highborne is a different culture and mindset, whiles some of it may appear arrogant, that is not to say no one amongst the Darnassians likes them, nor is it to say that the order is marred exclusively by this.

    d) I wasn'n't aware Jarod didn't wish the shen'dralar back - can you quote or provided a reference for this? Bear in mind to check the context to determine whether he si referring to the highborne aorder of the invasion period of the pre-sundering era (which nobody wants and which the shen'dralar are not representative off) - this is a n important distinction, because sometimes a term can be used but it's not referring to every one of that race or class - just a particular group especially if there is a notorious one.
    My point is that in the book, they are specifically shown not to be fitting in. The frictions you are attempting to sweep off the table, are a major part of the setting at the time. And sure, Maiev's evil actions, and the Highborne heroics since then, have likely swayed many mind in the Highborne's favor since then. But I would definitely argue against this not having been a struggle. The Highborne fight for acceptance has been a real struggle. There's a reason why that former priest NPC lost several friends for even studying the theorem of magic from the Highborne. Highborne are the hard-to-love underdog.

    As for Jarod, the section is long to quote. Basically Maiev questions Jarod on if he wants the Highborne to return. If he has truly forgiven them. He feels he can't lie to his sister, meaning doesn't want it, and hasn't forgiven them. But he puts his trust in Tyrande and Malfurion to know best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    SECTION 2 - To follow
    Okay... Heh, your replies get a little too long to quote in this section here. So, in the interest of keeping this short, I'll leave the things you said, out of my responses. Apologies.

    7. I think we can skip point 7. As this is basically us disagreeing on how many Nightborne would go against consensus and join the Night Elves, given the chance. And if that number would be high enough to justify it as a playable faction. I agree that that will remain speculation from either side.

    8. You give a lot of history in this point. I mostly agree, but there are three points I would challenge you on:
    1. Rather than the Highborne with Darth'remar, that saved Tyrande and joined the Night Elven rebellion in fighting against Azshara, I feel the Nightborne and Shen'dralar are actually the one that have more to redeem themselves for. Rather than fight against Azshara and for the world, like Darth'remar's people, the Nightborne and Shel'dralar fought only for the cities they then isolated themselves in. They fought only to secure their own survival, while Darth'remar's people fought with more noble intent.
    2. You state that the Highborne complied with the magic ban. I disagree with that:
    Originally Posted by WoWPedia
    "7,300 years ago, in the centuries following the Sundering, relations between the Highborne and the rest of the night elves were strained. The Highborne's abuse of arcane magic had led to the Burning Legion's invasion and the shattering of ancient Kalimdor. Countless night elves had been killed by the demons. Thus, arcane magic was now a crime punishable by death. Regardless, Dath'Remar and the rest of the Highborne continued practicing their sorcery. As the highest caste of ancient night elf society, the Highborne had studied arcane magic for more than a thousand years before Queen Azshara came to the throne. Most other night elves had significantly less knowledge and skill at manipulating arcane energies. The Highborne had no intention of surrendering the magic they saw as their birthright. They felt that the lower-caste majority had neither the right nor the ability to judge the safety of arcane magic."
    The Exile of the High Elves ingame book further states that the Highborne were in a state of magic withdrawal.
    3. Magic was indeed natural for many Night Elves in the past. But we do have to place this in the context of the Well of Eternity. An extreme source of power that had the Night Elves overflowing with it. It coming natural to many them, has long stopped being the case.

    9. I think the knowledge of the ancient Night Elven empire versus the current elves, is another of those things we'll have to disagree on. While I do not deny there have been bottlenecks, libraries lost and visionary mages killed in high numbers, a lot of very powerful and knowledgeable parts of Azshara's empire also managed to survive. The Kaldorei empire may have conquered the world under Azshara's reign. But that doesn't mean it was so advanced as you think. Going from a tribe of Dark Trolls, to a vast empire, all happened in the span of 5.000 years, and only in the later stages did they prioritize mastery of the arcane. Especially under Azshara. These probably couple thousand years are dwarved by the 7-10.000 years Silvermoon and Suramar have stood and developed their magic. And magic can develop fast, as the Humans have shown. Certainly, some clever magic of the old days remains lost for now. But people with the knowledge of those time, founded new and longer-lasting empires since then. I still feel the old empire's main advantage was the Well of Eternity's power. And that the 10.000 years since then has seen many more advances in magic that would make mages of this day superior in magic mastery in many ways. But if you disagree, I can accept that. Let's move on.

    What's perhaps more worth discussing is your claim that Night Elves are genetically the best at processing magic. That's not really true. Titanborn races such as Humans, Orcs, Dwarves, Gnomes, even Ogres, have advantages over elves. While elves have clear ties to magic, and thus minds capable of mastering the rules of it to a degree unrivaled by many, races with a Titan template seem capable of aligning with its essence on a fundamental level, leading to a near-instinctual talent in wielding it. If you want a complicated spell cast with marvelous effect, see an elf. If you want a feat of raw arcane power, see a human. It's the only reason you see short-lived races like Jaina and Khadgar, able to measure up, even surpass, elven mages with a hundred more lifetimes of magic study. And while I agree overuse of the Arcane causes an imbalance that is detrimental to the body, I think the Nightborne show that the Kaldorei are no less susceptible to it than the Blood Elves.

    10. I am a little curious to where Blizzard confirmed this, but I'm willing for us to skip this one. We'll agree to disagree if it's bluster or not.

    11. We definitely disagree here on several things. The first is how the different elves see nature. Sure, I suppose you could argue all the elves love nature. But in veeeery different ways. There's is a reason only Night Elves have druids. They value the Wilds. Nature, unmodified. A free ecosystem. This is never how it was treated in Quel'thalas. The forest are ranged like a park; maintained, patrolled, guided, modified, its predators kept docile, and paths constructed. Nature compromised, but kept in balance with civilization. Within the cities, nature becomes gardens with clipped hedges, floating plants, and green zones as decoration. That is nothing like the wilds. And yet your other examples are far worse still. Zin-Azshari was a place where nature was entwined with structure and stone, yes. This perhaps gives the illusion of a cooperation. But this was nature twisted by magic. A horror to the senses of someone like Malfurion. And yet Suramar is sooo much worse even. With many species of flora completely twisted by magic. Unnatural creations twisted to serve elven purpose with arcane manipulation. I am certain Malfurion would throw up. If you want to know how in touch the Nightborne are with nature, you need only read the information signs in the zoo of magically controlled animals.

    We definitely disagree on just how much the Nightborne evolved in 10.000 years. But I think our biggest disagreement is about how you feel the Nightborne is the missing part of Night Elven culture, that could and should reunite with them, like a perfectly fitting puzzle piece. Sure, some members of the old Kaldorei empire still survive. But there's a reason Suramar is full of young children. Many generations have happened. The current Night Elf and Nightborne cultures have existed far longer than Azshara's Kaldorei empire did. Druidism replaced Arcane as the guiding magic for the Night Elves. The Nightborne continued walking the Highborne path to exciting new heights. You may make assumptions that there are Nightborne that are not happy with that path any longer, but we don't really have indication of Nightborne that are unhappy with the culture they have created. You make a good case for the Night Elves being able to benefit from accepting back more mages. Even if I still feel that Tyrande's attitude to the Nightborne likely well reflects the attitude of the average Night Elf towards Suramar. But even if we assume that the Nightborne would be a perfect addition to Night Elf culture, I do not feel the Nightborne would feel that way at all. They have no real connection to anything the Night Elves have been up to. Druids and the Wilds? What's that to a magic city elf that's never seen a forest? Priesthood? Wardens? Sentinels? The Nightborne have their own distinct branches of people now. Night Elven culture has become much more alien to them then a culture like the Blood Elves. Sure, the look of things is different. But with their magic well, arcane libraries, fountains, parks and decorated city, how would a Nightborne or even Azshara Highborne not feel more at home in Silvermoon, then they would have in Darnassus?

    Part 3 -TBC
    I will come to the rest of your post another time. Would you like me to edit this one with the additions? or just post the rest in a new topic?
    Let's just continue here. Keep it in one place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    Someone at BioWare said it best a couple of years ago:
    "You could give the player a [Magic Hat] that would give them the exact gaming experience they ever wanted, and they would still complain about the colour of the hat."

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