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  1. #41
    Legendary! Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    wait what? what nordic aspects elves have? some of the "viking" or nord theme can sure be put under orcs with their honor and die in battle thing.
    They're a hodge-podge, but elves are originally from Norse mythology, which Tolkien drew heavily on, and it's thus inherited by the elves in WoW, mainly the night elves. In particular, the World Trees are inspired by Yggdrasil. There are minor elements incorporated into their architecture, too, such as their longships and longhouse; though obviously not as overt as the vrykul, the basic structure is there.

    There's nothing particularly Nordic about the orcs. In WC1-2 they drew heavily from the Mongol horde, and in WC3 and beyond, elements of feudal Japanese culture were also incorporated (stemming no doubt from the team's oft-professed love of Samurai Shodown 2). Naturally they also drew upon Tolkien, Warhammer, D&D, and so forth. But the Mongol and Japanese influences are sort of the unique Warcraft stamp on orcs.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    it was a war, killing is something natural, is not more evil than other races going to war, its not "being a dick", only after the blood they went into frenzy killing.
    Dude you're just typing a lot with no reason at all, I don't still know what you're trying to say. The dude I quoted said the green kool aid made them do it, I explained it did not and they made most of it before the green kool aid. All you're doing is speaking irrelevant shit. You got super defensive over a fact and now try to just desperately say something to appear right. Just stop it.
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  3. #43
    Immortal Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilian View Post
    Dude you're just typing a lot with no reason at all, I don't still know what you're trying to say. The dude I quoted said the green kool aid made them do it, I explained it did not and they made most of it before the green kool aid.
    he said the green kool aid made then dicks, and that is true, only after the blood they became corrupted and bind to the demons will, before was just normal war

    All you're doing is speaking irrelevant shit. You got super defensive over a fact and now try to just desperately say something to appear right. Just stop it.
    you are very aggressive or mad by something, are you ok?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    They're a hodge-podge, but elves are originally from Norse mythology, which Tolkien drew heavily on, and it's thus inherited by the elves in WoW, mainly the night elves. In particular, the World Trees are inspired by Yggdrasil. There are minor elements incorporated into their architecture, too, such as their longships and longhouse; though obviously not as overt as the vrykul, the basic structure is there.
    i mean coming from Norse mythology don't rly matter, Norse elves were totally different from the tolkien archetype in everything, sure the world tree is inspired in the ygdrassil but its just that, they even treat the tree different

    There's nothing particularly Nordic about the orcs. In WC1-2 they drew heavily from the Mongol horde, and in WC3 and beyond, elements of feudal Japanese culture were also incorporated (stemming no doubt from the team's oft-professed love of Samurai Shodown 2). Naturally they also drew upon Tolkien, Warhammer, D&D, and so forth. But the Mongol and Japanese influences are sort of the unique Warcraft stamp on orcs.
    sure mongol and japanese are the primal ones, but clans like frostwolf have some hints about nordic yes, the thing of dying in combat, honoring the ancestors, the warsong is way more like the norse warriors than samurais by example.

    shamanism is also related with then, Odin was basically a shaman or portrayed as one

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigby View Post
    Until WoD retconned that.
    How did WoD retcon that? Garrosh went through great lengths to convince Grom of what the future held for the orcish race. As far as Grom knew, his people would be betrayed by the Draenei, they'd be enslaved by the Legion and they'd starve out in internment camps.

    OT: Does anyone know? I think orc behaviour is kinda like troll regeneration, it changes when the writers want it to do so. Pretty sure they're still described as "peaceful" in the character creation screen. Yet war is incredibly easy to sell to them...

  5. #45
    Herald of the Titans Nathreim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    And with the release of WoD, the green kool-aid no longer was the cause.

    It is now the Ambien to Roseanne's racism. i.e, their penchant for genocide was in them all along.
    The Blood was never the cause if you payed attention.

    It was Kil'jaeden who sent visions of past shaman and loved ones to not just Ner'zul but all Shaman that convinced the Orcs the Draenei were the enemy.

    Warlock magic also had an effect on the Orcs as well. They started to forget to forget their humanity leaving their wounded to die on battlefields even though they could have been saved with just first aid.

    In WoD the elements also witness the vision from the shard of the hourglass its not just Grom. The horrors that would happen to Draenor convinced the elements to push the Orcs to war which is why the Iron Horde retain control of the elements.
    Last edited by Nathreim; 2019-08-26 at 05:45 AM.

  6. #46
    I get what people are getting at with "until WoD retconned that" but didn't Garrosh specifically manipulate an elemental vision to make Grom think Garrosh was there to save the orcs from slavery and extinction?

    Their beliefs were manipulated by a tyrant. They thought they were fighting to save themselves. They're violent fighters but they aren't jonsing for genocide at the slightest opportunity.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Their history is full of clans fighting each other, constantly war focused, even before the corruption... I am looking for examples where orcs have actually been okay with living in peace with anyone over a prolonged period.. I haven't found it yet.

    So I look to their lore, in the time before the legion that was described, and even then you would have clans having feuds and it was actually culturally encouraged.

    You're not evil attacking a clan for food and water, and in arguments or disputes, the winner is resolved through a good fight.

    I mean can a race like this ever live in peace with others?
    I mean, can a race that believes in certain deities and fights over them killing millions if not billions throught It's history live in peace with others?

    It doesn't matter for the orcs, same as us. Yes their culture, being orcs is essentially war. But that also depends on their clan, their clans are as different as Sweden to Italy is. Different culture, diffrerent mind set etc. all orcs are taught a universal few things, to have honor and to respect your ancestors and elders. But not all clans adheer to that nor do all orcs. The Shattered Hand for example could be considered one of the least honourable clans in my opinion due to their backstabbing rogue-nature.

    Frostwolves can be considered the most peaceful and passive, yet they will smack you down with an axe and bite you down with their wolf companions as easily as a Blackrock Orc, Blackrock, who has the most militirized orc clan ever. Wo yes, orcs can be peaceful, just as humans can be peaceful, why not? Even humans on WoW used to be in tribes, fighting each other blindly all over the now eastern kingdoms until they united into various kingdoms.

    And you are generalizing quite a bit, back In the day all the clans, the big ones especially had a meet up at Oshu'gun for a festival of peace and to have talks among the clans. Imagine It as being a UN for Dreanor but less strict. If one clan attacks another unprovoked, there's consequences It's not just a free for all out there for clans. Besides the orcs would focus on their enemies, the ogres and sometimes the Draenei. Even though they've been quite peaceful with the Draenei for a good while.
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  8. #48
    Stood in the Fire George Lucas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    i mean coming from Norse mythology don't rly matter, Norse elves were totally different from the tolkien archetype in everything, sure the world tree is inspired in the ygdrassil but its just that, they even treat the tree different



    sure mongol and japanese are the primal ones, but clans like frostwolf have some hints about nordic yes, the thing of dying in combat, honoring the ancestors, the warsong is way more like the norse warriors than samurais by example.

    shamanism is also related with then, Odin was basically a shaman or portrayed as one
    Tolkien was one of the greatest admirers of germanic mythology and it is well known that he incorporated as many themes from germanic mythology in to LotR as he could. There are even books solely written about this aspect of his writing.

    There is nothing specifically "Nordic" about the wish to die in battle and honoring your ancestors. That was a thing in most cultures at some point. Warsong are the mos Mongol-like tribe and in WoD they couldn't have been more in your face with this.

    Germanic people never had Shamans, that is a Uralic/Altaic thing. But WoW Shamans aren't even really shamans, they are just generic animistic priets, which were in the past also found in pretty much all cultures around the globe.
    Last edited by George Lucas; 2019-08-26 at 03:15 PM.

  9. #49
    Legendary! Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    sure mongol and japanese are the primal ones, but clans like frostwolf have some hints about nordic yes, the thing of dying in combat, honoring the ancestors, the warsong is way more like the norse warriors than samurais by example.

    shamanism is also related with then, Odin was basically a shaman or portrayed as one
    The term "shamanism" actually originated with the indigenous people of Manchu, Siberia, and Mongolia, though Blizzard's interpretation of shamanism doesn't really draw heavily from any particular culture, and I suppose generally leans more towards Native American archetypes.

    Ancestor worship and animism is pretty universally common, and were (and still are) practiced in Mongolia and Japan. And a lot of their concepts of honor in combat can also be paralleled with bushido, which places "dying with honor" as one of its highest tenets. Though I think a lot of these elements are also simply pulled from "noble savage" archetypes appearing in general pop culture and fantasy.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    The Blood was never the cause if you payed attention.
    Yeah I am sorry I haven't kept up with the retcons tucked away in some obscure 10 copper novel.
    "It's 2013 and I still view the internet on a 560x192 resolution monitor!"

  11. #51
    Herald of the Titans Nathreim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    Yeah I am sorry I haven't kept up with the retcons tucked away in some obscure 10 copper novel.
    It was Rise of the Horde back in BC. But you are hardly the only person to parrot this even people who supposedly read all the novels get this wrong. Its just one of those falsehoods that for some reason continues to be spread in the community.

    Another is "Sylvanas wants destroy the living" even though she has never said this and Putress who did was a Legion stooge.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Lucas View Post
    Tolkien was one of the greatest admirers of germanic mythology and it is well known that he incorporated as many themes from germanic mythology in to LotR as he could. There are even books solely written about this aspect of his writing.
    Yeah, but nothing in wow/tolkien elves resemble the old myth
    There is nothing specifically "Nordic" about the wish to die in battle and honoring your ancestors. That was a thing in most cultures at some point. Warsong are the mos Mongol-like tribe and in WoD they couldn't have been more in your face with this.
    sure most cultures, but it was predominant in Norse culture, do die in battle and go to valhala where your ancestors were, i never said orcs have their culture based on then, just a few hints here and there

    Germanic people never had Shamans, that is a Uralic/Altaic thing. But WoW Shamans aren't even really shamans, they are just generic animistic priets, which were in the past also found in pretty much all cultures around the globe.
    every tribe/old civilization had a spiritual guide, shaman or other name, for me i think its more heavy towards indians and norse ones(because the popular media)


    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    The term "shamanism" actually originated with the indigenous people of Manchu, Siberia, and Mongolia, though Blizzard's interpretation of shamanism doesn't really draw heavily from any particular culture, and I suppose generally leans more towards Native American archetypes.
    yeah i know that, like i said just a few hints of norse culture, of course they are heavy mongolian/japanese. Like @George Lucas poiinted, Warsong in wod have very mongolian influence

    Ancestor worship and animism is pretty universally common, and were (and still are) practiced in Mongolia and Japan. And a lot of their concepts of honor in combat can also be paralleled with bushido, which places "dying with honor" as one of its highest tenets. Though I think a lot of these elements are also simply pulled from "noble savage" archetypes appearing in general pop culture and fantasy.
    sure

  13. #53
    Stood in the Fire George Lucas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Yeah, but nothing in wow/tolkien elves resemble the old myth


    sure most cultures, but it was predominant in Norse culture, do die in battle and go to valhala where your ancestors were, i never said orcs have their culture based on then, just a few hints here and there



    every tribe/old civilization had a spiritual guide, shaman or other name, for me i think its more heavy towards indians and norse ones(because the popular media)
    Tolkien's Elves are based on the mythology and resemble it. Here is a short article about it: https://www.dailykos.com/stories/201...Germanic-Elves

    That is a Hollywood cliché. Nordic people before christianization weren't more war-like than other Europeans. The thing is that we only have literature about Germanic Pagan culture that is written by christians. It would be the same to use exclusively Turkic and Arab sources for the crusades and then act like all Europeans = devout warmongers, who only want to achieve martyrdom. It is highly unlikely that anyone but some small part of the "warrior nobility" had the wish to go to Valhalla. The average norseman back then probably never really thought about Valhalla in his whole life.

    Well, if you go by popular media, yes that would be a comprehensibly conclusion, but also a wrong one. Germanic pagans of course had priests but from the littly we know, they were nothing like Warcraft Shamans. The whole concept of the four elements in Warcraft is completely alien to Norse mythology and came to Europe from Egypt. A more interesting thing about Germanic mythology, that makes the Germanic pagans distinct from other Indo-Europeans, is that their highest god was different from the usual highest god of the Indo-European pantheons. Most put a patriarchal god of the sky who upheld order (Zeus/Iuppiter/Dyaus Pitr/Dievas/...) at the top. But in the Germanic pantheon this position shifted from Tyr/Tiw/Ziu to Odin/Woden/Wuotan, the earthbound magician God of the Underworld(Hades/Pluto/Varuna/Velnias).
    Last edited by George Lucas; 2019-08-26 at 08:26 PM.

  14. #54
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    Yes they are super peaceful nature loving hippies. Untill literally anyone tries to use any method to convince them that violence is cool.

  15. #55
    Immortal Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Lucas View Post
    Tolkien's Elves are based on the mythology and resemble it. Here is a short article about it:
    i am pretty sure elves back there were tiny fey-like creatures, nor perfect pointed ear humans,i mean even trolls in the myth were not like tolkien trolls

    Well, if you go by popular media, yes that would be a comprehensibly conclusion, but also a wrong one.

    thats what im saying, popular media, i know movies and series are not faithful, i mean Thrall is basically thor from the movies now, and before the doomhammer was a clearly throwback to mjolnir.

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