Death Knight Concept - 2020

[Clash the DK]

Updated: 11-10-19

Here is my concept for DKs going forward based on what little info we have about Shadowlands. All details in the links below.


Highlights:

~ Presences are back.

~ Gorefiend's Grasp made a talent for all specs.

~ Full row of talents offering the choice of improved movement speed.

~ Purgatory made baseline for all specs.

~ Defile reworked into a PvP talent that mirrors the look and feel of the Lich King ability.

~ Necrotic Aura for all specs and changed to absorb healing from nearby enemies. (Replaces Necrotic Strike functionality)

~ Blood Beast, Bone Golem, and Abomination.

~ Raise Dead with permanent Ghoul for all specs, but with an opt out built in baseline.

~ Death Coil made baseline for all specs AND used by all specs. Oh, and it heals you and your pet.

~ Rotations reworked for all specs.

~ All specs gain the choice of 2H or DW plus more...



BLOOD: Link

FROST: Link

UNHOLY: Link

[Segus1992]

So, homogenize, retrace steps, and nerf Death's Advance? Sounds like ass.

[Denizly]

All I hope for is that they nerf Breath so I can play a different frost spec.

I also wouldn't mind using valk again as unholy.

Blood is fine.

[Dead_MAX]

Without looking at the links and reading only this...Why?

I main a Death Knight and I'm more than happy with Blood gameplay. I also enjoy the Frost gameplay, though I feel like if we Breath of Sindragosa is so important to the spec it should be baselane...then again if it would be my decision I'd keep it as an talent and explore other two picks to be more interesting and powerful....personaly I don't like Breath.

And unholy seems pretty ok, little bit more complicated and with more setup requirements...thats fine.

- - - Updated - - -

Now I have read it and there is so many things I don't like with one thing that sounds cool - Charge system for Obliterate with increasing damage with stacks...

But then having only Death Strike as your rune spender seems dumb. I like the way how it is....you want damage? Frost Strike, you want heal? Death Strike.

[FrostyK]

All I hope for is that they nerf Breath so I can play a different frost spec.

I also wouldn't mind using valk again as unholy.

Blood is fine.

Bruh. I play icecap spec right now can do better than Breathe right now with proper Azerite traits and gears

[Clash the DK]

So, homogenize, retrace steps, and nerf Death's Advance? Sounds like ass.

I think we should have at least 20% extra movement speed while not being slowed below 70% AT ALL TIMES. That's what we need. And I wouldn't call it a "nerf"?

Homogenize, retrace steps? Not sure what you mean.

- - - Updated - - -

Without looking at the links and reading only this...Why?

I main a Death Knight and I'm more than happy with Blood gameplay. I also enjoy the Frost gameplay, though I feel like if we Breath of Sindragosa is so important to the spec it should be baselane...then again if it would be my decision I'd keep it as an talent and explore other two picks to be more interesting and powerful....personaly I don't like Breath.

And unholy seems pretty ok, little bit more complicated and with more setup requirements...thats fine.

- - - Updated - - -

Now I have read it and there is so many things I don't like with one thing that sounds cool - Charge system for Obliterate with increasing damage with stacks...

But then having only Death Strike as your rune spender seems dumb. I like the way how it is....you want damage? Frost Strike, you want heal? Death Strike.

A. In situations where we need to stay alive, we don't use Frost Strike and that costs us lots of damage. And if we aren't using Frost Strike, what's the point? I'm not a fan of abilities that totally replace other abilities in frequent situations.

B. In this scenario, we are front-loading our damage more with all rune abilities dealing Frost damage. This also has the effect of making the spec easier to balance with Obliterate dealing Frost damage as well. And it would improve scaling.

C. We would generate more resources and have less downtime. There would still be situations where you choose between maximizing damage by effectively using your runes while risking over-capping RP. Or if your in a situation where survival is paramount, then smart use of your RP takes priority. Not too much different than Death Strike vs Frost Strike.

[Papzer]

I don't think we need any serious redesign, only a few minor changes.
I am not sure about the others, but I think the gameplay aspect of the class is great. The only thing I don't like is BoS. I am not saying it should be nerfed or it should go, but we need some alternatives. And probably blood needs a little dmg buff. Baseline gargoyle for unholy. That's all.
And probably a baseline wraith walk.


(Btw I don't think homogenizing is bad in this case. That's why wotlk DK were great - basically all our abilites were baseline, and then we got some spec defining offensive/defensive ability and raid buff/debuff from talents. Not to mention the presences.)

I wouldn't mind if all specs could have gorefriends grasp, or raise dead, or death coil. And I could go on.

[Alaenore]

Bruh. I play icecap spec right now can do better than Breathe right now with proper Azerite traits and gears

And yet people refuse to believe Icecap and even obliteration to some extend is competitive (。_。)

[Papzer]

I play icecap too, but It just feels bad on single target.
It's amazing on trash tho. The frostwhelp/icy citadel/icecap synergy is great.

[Multitorix Davlen]

And yet people refuse to believe Icecap and even obliteration to some extend is competitive (。_。)

because it isn't on bosses.

[Alaenore]

I play icecap too, but outside of trash its not that great imo.

Icecap build can rank 90+ on some Mythic boss, as can be seen on WarcraftLogs. It'll probably show more boss once the few people playing it progress through content.
I personaly rank 80+ playing Obliterate, and i'll try Icecap next week considering it's a ~1k dps upgrade.

I doubt we'll be really competitive on Orgozoa or Radiance MM tho since there's pretty much constant cleave, but then I never tried these with Frostscythe for instance.

because it isn't on bosses.

Explain why a DK using Icecap ranks 98.3 percentile playing only icecap in HM, has 90 percentile on Sivara MM, etc?

[Multitorix Davlen]

Icecap build can rank 90+ on some Mythic boss, as can be seen on WarcraftLogs. It'll probably show more boss once the few people playing it progress through content.
I personaly rank 80+ playing Obliterate, and i'll try Icecap next week considering it's a ~1k dps upgrade.

I doubt we'll be really competitive on Orgozoa or Radiance MM tho since there's pretty much constant cleave, but then I never tried these with Frostscythe for instance.


Explain why a DK using Icecap ranks 98.3 percentile playing only icecap in HM, has 90 percentile on Sivara MM, etc?

Which DK are you looking at for Mythic Sivara with Icecap thats at a 98.3% or even 90% for Mythic Sivara? Because the ONLY dk I see that is using icecap on Sivara is a 74% dk named Nobel. Here is that log https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

For reference out of 400 DKs that I am looking at on Warcraft logs, only two on Mythic Sivara are using something other than breath. One is Nobel and the other is Myhtrok using Oblit. And here is their log https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done. For reference they are at a 76%. On the entire 400 person list I looked at those were the first two that WERE NOT using breath.

Please if there is another parse im not seeing please cite it, because I dont see it.

[Alaenore]

Which DK are you looking at for Mythic Sivara with Icecap thats at a 98.3% or even 90% for Mythic Sivara? Because the ONLY dk I see that is using icecap on Sivara is a 74% dk named Nobel. Here is that log <removed url>

For reference out of 400 DKs that I am looking at on Warcraft logs, only two on Mythic Sivara are using something other than breath. One is Nobel and the other is Myhtrok using Oblit. And here is their log <removed url>. For reference they are at a 76%. On the entire 400 person list I looked at those were the first two that WERE NOT using breath.

Please if there is another parse im not seeing please cite it, because I dont see it.

Look for Barblyu, Silvermoon. Can't post link yet, don't have 10 posts D: (10 posts YAY !)
MM (90 sivara) : https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...lyu#spec=Frost
HM (97 average) : https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...y=4&spec=Frost

Myhtrok is my char, using Obliteration, 86% on Sivara, with far from perfect trinkets (Mechagon wheel and Inkpod, both easily outmatched by Coral and Font of power), while raid leading, and doing quite a lot of rotational mistakes (my RW usage is trash, I sometimes fail using my CH during PoF, a few rune overcapping, etc).
I also don't have Dream's End (~1% dps increase) or a third essence, which a fair part of the top parses have now. I'll be trying Icecap since I got some more crit and Oblit scales poorly with that stat.


What I mean is we're not the best players in the world, with the best gear, and some guy could probably outdps by a good margin, even if we're already doing alright. So saying no other spec is viable when some guy do good with other specs is wrong.


Edit : Tbf Barblyu only has 97 in HM, some parses are in blood specs.

[Clash the DK]

BACK ON TOPIC

(Btw I don't think homogenizing is bad in this case. That's why wotlk DK were great - basically all our abilites were baseline, and then we got some spec defining offensive/defensive ability and raid buff/debuff from talents. Not to mention the presences.)

I wouldn't mind if all specs could have gorefriends grasp, or raise dead, or death coil. And I could go on.

Exactly. Right now Frost feels more like a Frost Warrior than a Death Knight.
My concept above helps remedy that to a certain extent.

[Nnyco]

Only thing i can agree with is massgrip baseline, dk's just need bigger numbers, it makes no sense that the class that sacrifices mobility isnt way higher in damage by default.

[Multitorix Davlen]

Look for Barblyu, Silvermoon. Can't post link yet, don't have 10 posts D: (10 posts YAY !)
MM (90 sivara) : https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...lyu#spec=Frost
HM (97 average) : https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...y=4&spec=Frost

Myhtrok is my char, using Obliteration, 86% on Sivara, with far from perfect trinkets (Mechagon wheel and Inkpod, both easily outmatched by Coral and Font of power), while raid leading, and doing quite a lot of rotational mistakes (my RW usage is trash, I sometimes fail using my CH during PoF, a few rune overcapping, etc).
I also don't have Dream's End (~1% dps increase) or a third essence, which a fair part of the top parses have now. I'll be trying Icecap since I got some more crit and Oblit scales poorly with that stat.


What I mean is we're not the best players in the world, with the best gear, and some guy could probably outdps by a good margin, even if we're already doing alright. So saying no other spec is viable when some guy do good with other specs is wrong.


Edit : Tbf Barblyu only has 97 in HM, some parses are in blood specs.

A couple points to your response.

One, when we talk about competitive, I generally don't talk about heroic parses. When you think competitive, you think the highest skill/difficulty in the game which is mythic. The only time I typically look at heroic logs is if they're trying to get into another heroic guild or bumping up to a mythic one. If that's all you can compete with, that is totally fine. I 100% understand that not everyone has the option, whether through time commitments or body count, to do the hardest difficulty around. But for the sake of the original point I will tend to skip over heroic parses.

Two, the log I linked that supposedly has your character is NOT at 86 percentile. It is at 77%. For whatever reason the page that shows you being at 86% doesn't even link to that encounter proving that percentage, it links to the one I did which shows you at 77% (and by rank i mean actual rank % not ilvl %). This isn't the case with Barblyu who you linked, it links to the logs showing the correct % on every log I look at for him. Maybe this is a bug on Warcraftlogs, but I cannot be sure I can only go with what my eyes see. If anyone else can contest or back up this specific point as to why its wonky it'd be much appreciated.

Three, I never claimed icecap and oblit talents were not viable, that's not what I said and its not what we're arguing. The argument is icecap and oblit COMPETITIVE with breath, which the answer is still no when looking at the people above and below Barblyu. For me, a single person doing this good is an exception, not the rule and I shall treat it as an outlier. SIDE NOTE Without dismissing what DPS ya'll are pulling its still really good, please don't take my arguments as a "Don't do this else you bad". Obviously I will always suggest you play what you feel fun, and if Icecap or oblit is fun for you, PLEASE by all means play it.

[Segus1992]

I think we should have at least 20% extra movement speed while not being slowed below 70% AT ALL TIMES. That's what we need. And I wouldn't call it a "nerf"?

Homogenize, retrace steps? Not sure what you mean.

You think DK should be 20% faster than all other classes, and 10% faster than WW monks? How is that DK and not just "I want to be stronger"?

Increasing Death's Advance a bit, and maybe make the slow resistance 80% or 85% is one thing, but to just be faster than other classes makes no sense at all. The active version should make you immune to slows, not capped at 100%, imo.

Homogenize: giving all specs a bunch of stuff that doesn't fit them (Grasp, Gargoyle), retrace: Grasp used to be for all specs, and Asphyxiate used to be a talent for all specs, with Strangulate being baseline.

[Alaenore]

A couple points to your response.

One, when we talk about competitive, I generally don't talk about heroic parses. When you think competitive, you think the highest skill/difficulty in the game which is mythic. The only time I typically look at heroic logs is if they're trying to get into another heroic guild or bumping up to a mythic one. If that's all you can compete with, that is totally fine. I 100% understand that not everyone has the option, whether through time commitments or body count, to do the hardest difficulty around. But for the sake of the original point I will tend to skip over heroic parses.

Two, the log I linked that supposedly has your character is NOT at 86 percentile. It is at 77%. For whatever reason the page that shows you being at 86% doesn't even link to that encounter proving that percentage, it links to the one I did which shows you at 77% (and by rank i mean actual rank % not ilvl %). This isn't the case with Barblyu who you linked, it links to the logs showing the correct % on every log I look at for him. Maybe this is a bug on Warcraftlogs, but I cannot be sure I can only go with what my eyes see. If anyone else can contest or back up this specific point as to why its wonky it'd be much appreciated.

Three, I never claimed icecap and oblit talents were not viable, that's not what I said and its not what we're arguing. The argument is icecap and oblit COMPETITIVE with breath, which the answer is still no when looking at the people above and below Barblyu. For me, a single person doing this good is an exception, not the rule and I shall treat it as an outlier. SIDE NOTE Without dismissing what DPS ya'll are pulling its still really good, please don't take my arguments as a "Don't do this else you bad". Obviously I will always suggest you play what you feel fun, and if Icecap or oblit is fun for you, PLEASE by all means play it.

- While I agree Heroic parse don't mean much, it does show the spec can compete with BoS DPS-wise. Bosses like Sivara are good for that because there's very few mechanics and it's pretty much an ideal case scenario.
Now, the fact that Mythic is the only interesting part is a great point : you have to do mecanics in MM. Getting a spear during your breath can totally fuck you up on Sivara, or a fear on Za'qul, or whatever mechanics comes at some point in a fight. Top parses don't show that, and they may have a higher theorical DPS than Icecap/Obli (that's another discussion, but numbers are actually very close).
I'd argue Icecap is better for progress since you can still deal with them, and simply lose some time on a cooldown you get every 20 seconds, instead of fucking up your short burst window.

- It show me at 77 because that parse was 10 days ago. 77 is the ranking "now". Historically, the day it was made, it was 86.
You can check that going to Ranking / Historical).
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ame=historical

- I think it comes down to what we consider "competitive". For me, it's not what does the highest DPS on a boss you already cleared and have on farm (even if it's fun eh), it's what can be beneficial on boss you're progressing on. I could argue it's not Method-level of play too, which changes things too. Theory and pratice.
What i'm saying is, from the data we have, which are 3 people playing specs supposed to be "bad", non viable and non competitive if you listen to the current theorycrafting and Discord, these specs do well. More people using it could lead to a bigger sample and realizing it's actually on par with BoS.
And as I said before, the fact you're not randomly doing shitty DPS because you had some bad luck on a mechanic when using a CD is pretty invaluable during progress, especially when it's one of the biggest complain people have about BoS currently.


However I do realize BoS will most likely pull out the biggest number if the stars align, or if the fight ends at like 2:40 since it'll be at the end of your second cooldown / potion, etc. All three talents have their pro and cons.
I just feel DK currently could use some more acceptance of other talents. Currently, when someone asks if they could play Icecap or Obliteration, they're considered meme-level and made fun of

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Here is mine.
Don't change anything about the classes that will end up redesigning things that aren't needed.

Doing this causes too many imbalance issues.
Focus on more flavorful additions to make each spec more unique from each other, not give them all the same tools and make them less unique from each other.

Really, my suggestion is change as little as possible.
The more concrete class design gets, the more room for intense customization there is, which we are seeing thanks to azerite traits, essences, and talents/gear this season.

Make this the focal point of the game and class design moving forward.
Basic at its core, highly customizable at the highest end.

[KevtheWise]

I don't think dual-wielding for Blood with ever happen, unless you get a lot more parry/dodge, or the healing on death strike equals to both weapons.