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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    Monks were already limping in representation (although I personally don't think it's a bad thing at all if a class is less popular than others) and absolutely did not need demon hunters. Demon hunters were so parasitic to the fantasy of monks that it's almost comical the amount of similarities between the classes; a generate-spend resource system, a dash that can damage as you move through someone, high mobility, and emphasis on moving quickly, strong upfront damage that heavily relied on powerful CDs, extremely sticky in PvP, powerful AoE stun effect...seriously, need I go on? In particular both classes having orbs that restored health upon killing an enemy was the icing on the cake as far as uncreative goes, they literally copy-pasted monk afterlife orbs and added them to DHs but better.
    Hrm.

    Is this distinction much more between Monks and Demon Hunters solely though? I agree with your assessment about the relationships between the two, especially on mobility. However, almost every other point like having generate-spend resource system, strong upfront damage on powerful CDs, sticky PVP... that all applies to what Guardian Druid ending up being in Legion too.

    Interesting anecdote about your monk friends all rolling DH though. I never knew many Monk mains to begin with, so I hadn't noticed any big change in that regard.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Demon hunters got zero monk abilities, in Legion or in BfA. Fact.
    Soul Fragments = Old version of Gift of the Ox. In fact, GotO was changed in Legion from generating healing spheres when dealing damage (like Soul Fragments) and generating healing spheres when they take damage.
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  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Removing Jab was an easy way to remove a Monk dual wielding.
    Monks still dual-wield. They are still able to equip two one-handed weapons.
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  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You're right, they could of kept it, but obviously Blizzard couldn't have two leather-wearing dual wielders who can tank.
    Eh, I don't think that's true at all. If every other class uses a unique resource, why do Druids still use Rage? I don't think it's obvious, and I don't think it's simple. Even if the Demon Hunter had not been added, Monks' Dual Wielding Tanking identity is about as iconic as the Hunter's Dual Wield DPS or the Shaman's 2H DPS. It was just a mechanic.

    If anything is obvious here, it's your attachment to that mechanic for this specific class, because I don't see you making this argument for the DK's at all when they were in the exact same boat. I mean why was Frost not the Tanking spec? Wouldn't it make more sense for the Cold, Icy, enemy-Slowing spec to be the one that tanks? And Blood always makes me think of vampires and bloodlust, and those don't evoke an identity of Tanking hits the way a 'Lich-borne' ice-armored Death Knight would.

    Like others have said... Monks still dual wield. That hasn't gone away, so you can still fulfill your katana fantasy as a Windwalker. I mean honestly, what would your answer be to someone who wants Frost DW tanking back? Well it's the same here, 'you still have Frost DW DPS'.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2019-08-27 at 11:26 PM.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Soul Fragments = Old version of Gift of the Ox. In fact, GotO was changed in Legion from generating healing spheres when dealing damage (like Soul Fragments) and generating healing spheres when they take damage.
    Yeah, no. First, because monks still have GotO. Spawning them when they take damage instead of when dealing damage is more in line with the spec, but it doesn't mean the ability was "removed" from the monk class. And on top of that, both classes gained, at the exact same time, the same ability of pulling in all the spheres to heal themselves.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You're right, they could of kept it, but obviously Blizzard couldn't have two leather-wearing dual wielders who can tank.
    But it's fine to have more than one leather-wearer class dual-wielding as DPS? It's fine to have two plate-wearing melee classes dual-wielding as DPS? It's fine to have two plate-wearing classes tanking with sword and shield? And etc, and etc, and etc...
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Eh, I don't think that's true at all. If every other class uses a unique resource, why do Druids still use Rage? I don't think it's obvious, and I don't think it's simple. Even if the Demon Hunter had not been added, Monks' Dual Wielding Tanking identity is about as iconic as the Hunter's Dual Wield DPS or the Shaman's 2H DPS. It was just a mechanic.

    If anything is obvious here, it's your attachment to that mechanic for this specific class, because I don't see you making this argument for the DK's at all when they were in the exact same boat. I mean why was Frost not the Tanking spec? Wouldn't it make more sense for the Cold, Icy, enemy-Slowing spec to be the one that tanks? And Blood always makes me think of vampires and bloodlust, and those don't evoke an identity of Tanking hits the way a 'Lich-borne' ice-armored Death Knight would.

    Like others have said... Monks still dual wield. That hasn't gone away, so you can still fulfill your katana fantasy as a Windwalker. I mean honestly, what would your answer be to someone who wants Frost DW tanking back? Well it's the same here, 'you still have Frost DW DPS'.
    Uh, Brewmasters lost the ability the DW completely, since a core aspect of their rotation doesn't work with 1h weapons.

    I can't fulfill my Katana fantasy as a WW because the Katanas are pasted to the WW's back and all he does is punch.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Yeah, no. First, because monks still have GotO. Spawning them when they take damage instead of when dealing damage is more in line with the spec, but it doesn't mean the ability was "removed" from the monk class. And on top of that, both classes gained, at the exact same time, the same ability of pulling in all the spheres to heal themselves.
    How is it more in line with the spec when the spec did it the other way for 2 previous expansions?

    But it's fine to have more than one leather-wearer class dual-wielding as DPS? It's fine to have two plate-wearing melee classes dual-wielding as DPS? It's fine to have two plate-wearing classes tanking with sword and shield? And etc, and etc, and etc...
    Obviously.
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  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Hrm.

    Is this distinction much more between Monks and Demon Hunters solely though? I agree with your assessment about the relationships between the two, especially on mobility. However, almost every other point like having generate-spend resource system, strong upfront damage on powerful CDs, sticky PVP... that all applies to what Guardian Druid ending up being in Legion too.

    Interesting anecdote about your monk friends all rolling DH though. I never knew many Monk mains to begin with, so I hadn't noticed any big change in that regard.
    Oh, I mainly meant DPS monks. Two of the friends that rerolled though were Brewmaster mains, unhappy with the class changes.

    I remember a huge backlash from BrM monks early in Legion due to general disappointment with the changes the way the class played. I can also say personally BrM went from my go-to tank alt to being pretty much my least favorite tank in Legion despite how cool its artifact was, just because I didn't care for the redesign at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You should've stopped there.

    Monks lost no ability or even playstyle, at all, with the introduction of the demon hunter class. It's still a highly mobile, versatile class. Just like the rogues did not lose any of their mobility to the monk class when MoP came along.
    Yes and they were two highly mobile leather-wearing agility classes released in a short time span with each other when the first wasn't even popular. The similarities between the two classes is not subjective.

    Don't just cherry pick the one subjective point I said and pretend it was all I posted. If you don't agree with the bits of subjective and anecdotal shit then that's fine. But the facts are that DHs and monks share a lot of gameplay similarities. Shit like soul fragments dropping from enemies, gift of the ox, and afterlife are impossible to ignore because they're basically the same mechanic. Combine that with an emphasis on mobility, a spammy weak attack that generates resource that you can spend on stronger abilities, and even their emphasis on burst and CDs.
    If you reply to me with a full essay I'm probably not going to bother reading it, sorry.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Yeah, no. First, because monks still have GotO. Spawning them when they take damage instead of when dealing damage is more in line with the spec, but it doesn't mean the ability was "removed" from the monk class. And on top of that, both classes gained, at the exact same time, the same ability of pulling in all the spheres to heal themselves.
    How is it more in line with the spec when the spec did it the other way for 2 previous expansions, only changing when the Demon Hunter entered the game? Did the introduction of the DH somehow make Blizzard realize the "true purpose" of the Brewmaster spec?

    But it's fine to have more than one leather-wearer class dual-wielding as DPS? It's fine to have two plate-wearing melee classes dual-wielding as DPS? It's fine to have two plate-wearing classes tanking with sword and shield? And etc, and etc, and etc...
    Obviously.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Warrior's Raging Blow: requires dual-wielding two-handed weapons. Does not work when wielding a single 2-h weapon, or dual-wielding 2-h/1-h or 1-h/1-h weapons.
    Warrior's Bloodthirst: requires at least one 2-h weapon equipped.
    Warrior's Rampage: requires at least one 2-h weapon equipped.

    There. I found 3 in just one spec of a single class. I'm willing to bet there are more examples in other classes, especially within the death knight class.
    Yeah, you found a spec that was based entirely around using 2 weapons since its inception. Blizzard expanded that concept by allowing them to DW 2h weapons.

    The Brewmaster spec utilized multiple weapons for multiple expansions. Blizzard contracted that concept by limiting them to just staves and polearms.

    Big difference.
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  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Uh, Brewmasters lost the ability the DW completely, since a core aspect of their rotation doesn't work with 1h weapons.

    I can't fulfill my Katana fantasy as a WW because the Katanas are pasted to the WW's back and all he does is punch.
    Yeah but that's more a problem of homogenization than anything. Death Knights lost way more fantasy than that.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yeah but that's more a problem of homogenization than anything. Death Knights lost way more fantasy than that.
    Homogenization brought on by the introduction of a shallow class that was too similar to existing classes.

    What fantasy did DKs lose exactly?
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  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Homogenization brought on by the introduction of a shallow class that was too similar to existing classes.
    So what, Artifacts had nothing to do with this? You telling me if not for the Demon Hunters, Monks would be given Modular Artifacts for 2H AND DW for Brewmaster spec? Please.

    All you have here is 'I need something to blame for my class' gameplay changing to something I don't like' instead of addressing the real problem - the class itself. It does suck when your class isn't what it could be, or it became something great but then stuff was taken away because of homogenization. As a Druid player, we've faced this more times than any other class. The abilities we were known for in Vanilla Raiding don't even exist the same way today.

    Like I said, even DK's lost their DW Tanking fantasy. As well as plenty of 2H Frost Tanking, 2H Frost DPS, 2H Unholy Tanking and 2H Blood DPS. That's quite a bit if you ask me. Personally, I don't think DW fits in the DK's identity at all, but some people really glommed on having it, especially for tanking. I know one buddy who was really drawn in to that style of play, and I personally got irked by the combo since it felt really 'uncanon'. But he loved it. But hey, that's no reason to then make a statement about Monks taking what DK's lost, because it really doesn't matter in the long run.

    Where the Monk failed was in all other sorts of reasons. Where the Monk remains played is in it still being very viable and in retaining a fun and engaging playstyle.

    https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20757506525

    I think this thread hits the nail on the head in far more ways than simply pointing at Demon Hunters and crying about it. I see Monk players gravitating to the DH because ultimately, it's the superior fantasy for its style. That being said, I don't see the DH having pulled many Rogues away from that very same niche, despite them being compared to Rogues well before they were even introduced. There's usually two reasons to swap mains, and to me that comes down to Aesthetics and Gameplay. And frankly, the Monk has always lacked in the aesthetics department, well before Legion.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2019-08-28 at 12:13 AM.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    So what, Artifacts had nothing to do with this? You telling me if not for the Demon Hunters, Monks would be given Modular Artifacts for 2H AND DW for Brewmaster spec? Please.
    You telling me that Windwalkers couldn't keep weapon-based animations?

    All you have here is 'I need something to blame for my class' gameplay changing to something I don't like' instead of addressing the real problem - the class itself. It does suck when your class isn't what it could be, or it became something great but then stuff was taken away because of homogenization. As a Druid player, we've faced this more times than any other class. The abilities we were known for in Vanilla Raiding don't even exist the same way today.
    The class was fine. It was mysteriously altered at the same time the DH class entered the class lineup, and the DH mysteriously ended up with some of the Monk's abilities and attributes.

    Like I said, even DK's lost their DW Tanking fantasy. As well as plenty of 2H Frost Tanking, 2H Frost DPS, 2H Unholy Tanking and 2H Blood DPS. That's quite a bit if you ask me. Personally, I don't think DW fits in the DK's identity at all, but some people really glommed on having it, especially for tanking. I know one buddy who was really drawn in to that style of play, and I personally got irked by the combo since it felt really 'uncanon'. But he loved it.
    Yeah, those changes to DKs aren't remotely similar to what happened to the Monk class. DKs were clearly overpowered when they entered the game and they needed to be brought in line. Monks were nowhere near out of control, and they got gimped because Demon Hunters needed abilities.
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  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Homogenization brought on by the introduction of a shallow class that was too similar to existing classes.
    You have nothing but your feelings to back up that statement, and as we know, feelings are not facts.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah, you found a spec that was based entirely around using 2 weapons since its inception. Blizzard expanded that concept by allowing them to DW 2h weapons.
    And the monk's windwalker spec was based entire on unarmed combat since its inception.

    The Brewmaster spec utilized multiple weapons for multiple expansions. Blizzard contracted that concept by limiting them to just staves and polearms.

    Big difference.
    Blizzard also limited the Frost spec of the death knight class to work solely with dual-wielding one-handers. Shamans also can no longer wield two-handed weapons on their enhancement spec.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    How is it more in line with the spec when the spec did it the other way for 2 previous expansions?
    So what? You're saying Blizzard can't decide something doesn't "really work in line" with a given spec longer than a couple patches within an expansion? They can't do it a couple expansions down the line?

    Obviously.
    So you're admitting to having double-standards, then.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    Yes and they were two highly mobile leather-wearing agility classes released in a short time span with each other when the first wasn't even popular. The similarities between the two classes is not subjective.
    Similarities are not necessarily subjective, true. However, similarities such as that exist among all classes in the game.

    Don't just cherry pick the one subjective point I said and pretend it was all I posted. If you don't agree with the bits of subjective and anecdotal shit then that's fine. But the facts are that DHs and monks share a lot of gameplay similarities. Shit like soul fragments dropping from enemies, gift of the ox, and afterlife are impossible to ignore because they're basically the same mechanic. Combine that with an emphasis on mobility, a spammy weak attack that generates resource that you can spend on stronger abilities, and even their emphasis on burst and CDs.
    And if you take two other classes and compare them, I assure you that you can find a lot of similarities as well.
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  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah, you found a spec that was based entirely around using 2 weapons since its inception. Blizzard expanded that concept by allowing them to DW 2h weapons.

    The Brewmaster spec utilized multiple weapons for multiple expansions. Blizzard contracted that concept by limiting them to just staves and polearms.

    Big difference.
    To be fair, Fury used to be able to use both a single two hander as well as two one handers. Blizzard definitely contracted their options along the way as well in order to pigeonhole the spec to their class fantasy (and likely lessen the options they have to balance around).

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You telling me that Windwalkers couldn't keep weapon-based animations?
    Actually, I'm sure they could.

    That they aren't in the game is a problem with Blizzard and how they choose to address the Monk class. And to push my point... This has nothing to do with Demon Hunters. It's just about Monks being in a shit situation.

    The class was fine. It was mysteriously altered at the same time the DH class entered the class lineup, and the DH mysteriously ended up with some of the Monk's abilities and attributes.
    Guardian, Survival, Discipline, Demonology and Combat were all fine before legion too. It's not so mysterious that abilities cut from one class made their way into another. This is not exclusive to adding new classes, as this happened well before and well after Legion.

    Yeah, those changes to DKs aren't remotely similar to what happened to the Monk class. DKs were clearly overpowered when they entered the game and they needed to be brought in line. Monks were nowhere near out of control, and they got gimped because Demon Hunters needed abilities.
    Er, like I gave an example of, they could have kept DW Frost Tanking and made Blood the DPS spec. Being OP didn't warrant 6 distinct gamestyles being removed from the DK.

    Which is what the Monk is facing here, except on a lesser level. I mean should we go ahead and lump Fistweaving in there as well?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2019-08-28 at 01:06 AM.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You have nothing but your feelings to back up that statement, and as we know, feelings are not facts.
    Demon Hunter only has two specs, and Blizzard said they kept it that way because they couldn't come up with a third spec that fitted its theme. That's a fact.

    And the monk's windwalker spec was based entire on unarmed combat since its inception.
    Yep, and having the option to utilize weapons as well as fists never impeded on that design concept.

    Again, it's amazing how Blizzard suddenly figured out the purpose of the Monk class when Demon Hunters were introduced.


    Blizzard also limited the Frost spec of the death knight class to work solely with dual-wielding one-handers. Shamans also can no longer wield two-handed weapons on their enhancement spec.
    Yeah, two examples done for balance purposes, and those specs were reconfigured to reflect that change. Brewmasters and WW were never altered for that purpose because those specs were never out of control.

    So what? You're saying Blizzard can't decide something doesn't "really work in line" with a given spec longer than a couple patches within an expansion? They can't do it a couple expansions down the line?
    No, I'm saying your reasoning (read:excuse) is hogwash because that ability was only changed when Demon Hunters entered the game and Demon Hunters got pretty much a clone of the old ability.

    So you're admitting to having double-standards, then.
    Nope. Just admitting that Blizzard clearly holds DPS and Tanks to different standards.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Actually, I'm sure they could.

    That they aren't in the game is a problem with Blizzard and how they choose to address the Monk class. And to push my point... This has nothing to do with Demon Hunters. It's just about Monks being in a shit situation.



    Guardian, Survival, Discipline, Demonology and Combat were all fine before legion too. It's not so mysterious that abilities cut from one class made their way into another. This is not exclusive to adding new classes, as this happened well before and well after Legion.
    Actually Survival, Discipline, and Combat weren't fine before Legion. All three of those specs were struggling for an identity, and Blizzard's changes gave them a more defined identity. Demonology was sacrificed for the Demon Hunter class, and Brewmasters and WWs got altered for the DH class too.

    Yeah but they crushed Fistweaving too and I could argue that it was nowhere near out of control. It didn't work, but not because of balance or aesthetics. I mean it'd be just as baseless to blame this on Demon Hunters.
    Yeah, it didn't work, that's why Mistweaver was changed. Brewmaster and Windwalker worked just fine.

    What the Brewmasters lost to DH, they gained something new in return. And balance and game-wise, people still consider it a fun and engaging class to play. So honestly I don't see what the big problem is other than the Monk having sucky aesthetics, otherwise the gameplay is still fully functional albeit highly skill-based, which has always been a contributing factor to its lack of popularity.
    Because it was an unnecessary loss. In an effort to make the DH feel more unique as a class, Monks lost some of what made them cool. In the grand scheme of things it only sucks for the people who enjoyed how Monk was, but it still sucks, and frankly DH really didn't add much to the game.

    Which is why I so vehemently oppose class concepts that purposely cannibalize existing classes.
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  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Demon Hunter only has two specs, and Blizzard said they kept it that way because they couldn't come up with a third spec that fitted its theme. That's a fact.
    And that fact is completely irrelevant to your claim that the demon hunter class took abilities from the monk class when it was implemented.

    Yep, and having the option to utilize weapons as well as fists never impeded on that design concept.
    And the removal of the "Jab" ability in nothing changes the monk class. Tiger Palm was mostly an irrelevant spell that would rarely be used. So instead of just removing Tiger Palm, the most logical decision in line with the spec'

    Again, it's amazing how Blizzard suddenly figured out the purpose of the Monk class when Demon Hunters were introduced.
    "Correlation does not imply causation". And, really? Figure out the purpose? Who said anything like that? I'm simply saying that if an ability was to be removed from the monk class, the only one that uses a weapon is the most logical one over removing an ability that fits the theme of the class: unarmed combat.

    Monks had five "basic" abilities: jab, tiger palm, blackout kick, rising sun kick, and fists of fury. Tiger Palm was a mostly useless ability that you would almost never use unless you had no energy to cast jab, and no chi to cast BOK/RSK. It was a prime target for removal, by functionality alone, but given the spec's theme (unarmed combat), the most logical choice was to remove jab and give its functionality (chi generator) to Tiger Palm.

    Yeah, two examples done for balance purposes,
    How do you know that? Do you have a Blizzard quote? Or is this another one of your "personal feelings as facts"?

    Brewmasters and WW were never altered for that purpose because those specs were never out of control.
    You don't know that.

    No, I'm saying your reasoning (read:excuse) is hogwash
    This coming from the guy stating personal feelings as fact.

    because that ability was only changed when Demon Hunters entered the game and Demon Hunters got pretty much a clone of the old ability.
    Correlation does not imply causation. And demon hunters did not get "jab". As for Gift of the Ox, explain to me why both classes got the same ability that have the same functionality (pull healing spheres/soul fragments to you).

    Nope. Just admitting that Blizzard clearly holds DPS and Tanks to different standards.
    No, this is just more evidence of you making arbitrary rules that Blizzard does not follow. And you conveniently forgot that we still have paladins and warriors, both "plate-wearing tanks wielding shield and one-handers".
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    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
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    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And if you take two other classes and compare them, I assure you that you can find a lot of similarities as well.
    I mean...not really? To give that a fair shake I tried to batch a few specs together that I thought would have similarities (outlaw/enhancement, aff/shadow, and survival/arms) and even trying it as specifically as possible with classes that have somewhat similar fantasies there are really not as many similarities as there are between DHs and monks. Like seriously, I can't think of a single pair of specs between two classes that are as similar as DHs and monks.

    On a spec level, there aren't really all that many other specs that line up as well as monk and DH does. Affliction doesn't even have a similar playstyle to shadow at all, and they're probably the two other specs I'd consider the closest. If you want to really stretch then yeah, technically most tanks have a roughly similar layout of cooldowns and mitigation methods, but the comparisons I made weren't about roles, they're details that DH share with monks specifically. On a class level, it doesn't even come close, there aren't really any classes at all of the 10 that preceded monk that are all that similar even after the excessive BfA pruning.

    I'm genuinely curious what two specs or classes you think resemble each other as much as monks and demon hunters, because I can't see it.
    Last edited by Irian; 2019-08-28 at 07:01 AM.
    If you reply to me with a full essay I'm probably not going to bother reading it, sorry.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    That they aren't in the game is a problem with Blizzard and how they choose to address the Monk class. And to push my point... This has nothing to do with Demon Hunters. It's just about Monks being in a shit situation.
    I would give up if I were you. This is Teriz. He is incapable of comprehending simple logic, I'd like to refer you to my previous post where he claimed "Brewmasters aren't locked to 2H weapons. They're locked to only staves and polearms.". Arguing with him is like arguing with someone who is currently having a stroke, and I'm 90% sure it isn't me having it. I think he is honestly the first person to have yet made the connection between the loss of DW Brewmaster tanking and the existance of demon hunters, that alone should pretty much conclude what a ludicrous notion this is. Especially if you look at the overall design pattern of legion and see that there were other specs that lost weapon options due to an attempt to simplify balancing.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And that fact is completely irrelevant to your claim that the demon hunter class took abilities from the monk class when it was implemented.
    I said attributes AND abilities. I also called them a shallow class. I would definitely consider a class that is only 2 specs and requires abilities from existing classes to function to be a shallow class.

    And the removal of the "Jab" ability in nothing changes the monk class. Tiger Palm was mostly an irrelevant spell that would rarely be used. So instead of just removing Tiger Palm, the most logical decision in line with the spec'
    Yeah, it did nothing but make 2/3 of the available weapons for the Brewmaster useless, and gave Windwalkers the ability to only punch when they have a weapon on their back.

    "Correlation does not imply causation". And, really? Figure out the purpose? Who said anything like that? I'm simply saying that if an ability was to be removed from the monk class, the only one that uses a weapon is the most logical one over removing an ability that fits the theme of the class: unarmed combat.
    Your argument is that these changes were made because Blizzard somehow only figured out the tanking and DPS theme of the Monk class in Legion, at the exact same time the Demon Hunter class emerged on the scene. Also if the theme is "unarmed combat" why are all three specs still using weapons? You do know that a fist weapon is still a weapon right?

    Monks had five "basic" abilities: jab, tiger palm, blackout kick, rising sun kick, and fists of fury. Tiger Palm was a mostly useless ability that you would almost never use unless you had no energy to cast jab, and no chi to cast BOK/RSK. It was a prime target for removal, by functionality alone, but given the spec's theme (unarmed combat), the most logical choice was to remove jab and give its functionality (chi generator) to Tiger Palm.
    In the Brewmaster spec, Tiger Palm didn't cost chi, so you used that as a filler if you didn't have the Chi to use Keg smash, and if Jab was on cool down. Also it gave you a buff called Tiger Strikes that caused your other attacks to ignore 30% of the target's armor. I would hardly consider that a mostly useless ability that you would almost never use. I remember using Tiger Palm quite frequently as a Brewmaster. Within the Windwalker spec, Tiger Palm was a chi spender, since the DPS spec had a larger amount of chi to use.

    I remember the rotation of the Monk in WoD to be very smooth and fast paced, with the player always having a button to press giving you t he feeling of playing a character in a fighting game. Legion's version really paled in comparison IMO.


    How do you know that? Do you have a Blizzard quote? Or is this another one of your "personal feelings as facts"?
    Enhancement Shaman used to one-shot people in Vanilla WoW due to Windfury and the power of 2H weapons. Blizzard reduced that by making Enhancement a DW spec instead. It also had the added benefit of differentiating the Enhancement spec from the Paladin Retribution spec when they gave both classes to both factions in TBC.


    You don't know that.
    I do know that because Blizzard never mentioned either Monk spec as a problem spec that needed fixing. Demonology, Shadow, all 3 Rogue specs, and all 3 Hunter specs were mentioned as problem specs that needed to be fixed at the end of WoD. Demonology was obviously "fixed" to give Demon Hunters back their signature ability.

    Correlation does not imply causation. And demon hunters did not get "jab". As for Gift of the Ox, explain to me why both classes got the same ability that have the same functionality (pull healing spheres/soul fragments to you).
    I never argued that Demon Hunters got Jab, I said the Monks lost Jab in order to make design space for the DH class. As for GotO, thanks for making my point.

    No, this is just more evidence of you making arbitrary rules that Blizzard does not follow. And you conveniently forgot that we still have paladins and warriors, both "plate-wearing tanks wielding shield and one-handers".
    Yes, and Prot Warriors don't use magic, which provides a significant difference between the two. Both Monks and Demon Hunters are lightly armored agility classes that combine mobility, DW melee attacks (before the loss of jab), and magic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    I mean...not really? To give that a fair shake I tried to batch a few specs together that I thought would have similarities (outlaw/enhancement, aff/shadow, and survival/arms) and even trying it as specifically as possible with classes that have somewhat similar fantasies there are really not as many similarities as there are between DHs and monks. Like seriously, I can't think of a single pair of specs between two classes that are as similar as DHs and monks.

    On a spec level, there aren't really all that many other specs that line up as well as monk and DH does. Affliction doesn't even have a similar playstyle to shadow at all, and they're probably the two other specs I'd consider the closest. If you want to really stretch then yeah, technically most tanks have a roughly similar layout of cooldowns and mitigation methods, but the comparisons I made weren't about roles, they're details that DH share with monks specifically. On a class level, it doesn't even come close, there aren't really any classes at all of the 10 that preceded monk that are all that similar even after the excessive BfA pruning.

    I'm genuinely curious what two specs or classes you think resemble each other as much as monks and demon hunters, because I can't see it.
    The ironic thing about this is that @Ielenia actually switched from Monk to Demon Hunter himself.

    Gee, I wonder why.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    I mean...not really? To give that a fair shake I tried to batch a few specs together that I thought would have similarities (outlaw/enhancement, aff/shadow, and survival/arms) and even trying it as specifically as possible with classes that have somewhat similar fantasies there are really not as many similarities as there are between DHs and monks. Like seriously, I can't think of a single pair of specs between two classes that are as similar as DHs and monks.

    On a spec level, there aren't really all that many other specs that line up as well as monk and DH does. Affliction doesn't even have a similar playstyle to shadow at all, and they're probably the two other specs I'd consider the closest. If you want to really stretch then yeah, technically most tanks have a roughly similar layout of cooldowns and mitigation methods, but the comparisons I made weren't about roles, they're details that DH share with monks specifically. On a class level, it doesn't even come close, there aren't really any classes at all of the 10 that preceded monk that are all that similar even after the excessive BfA pruning.

    I'm genuinely curious what two specs or classes you think resemble each other as much as monks and demon hunters, because I can't see it.
    The ironic thing about this is that @Ielenia actually switched from Monk to Demon Hunter himself.

    Gee, I wonder why.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2019-08-28 at 09:51 AM.
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