Would You Forgive The Horde?

[Mehrunes]

The worst part about Sylvanas is that she had the potential to be an incredibly compelling character but instead we got the elf chick trope and author insert nathanos

That's kinda the summary for the entirety of Warcraft. A lot of potential that gets completely squandered for utter nonsense instead.

[Zuben]

If I was as Alliance as I am Horde, no, I would not. Both factions are needed to fight off whatever greater evil is threatening Azeroth at each respective time, but ignoring such greater wisdom I find serious consequences to serious deeds desirable. Plus faction politics, tensions and warfare is the most Warcrafty content there is in my books. Now that Alliance has its scorned hardliners in Tyrande's night elves I would very much let them have their way than allow Anduin to deny it.

[Kaver]

Why is the alternative to forgiveness only revenge?

What if I don’t want to forgive the horde but also don’t want to seek revenge?

[Raisei]

There is nothing to forgive. Alliance started the war and should seek forgiveness but get none.

I know, right? Stormheim and Tarajo!!! Nothing the Horde could ever do or has ever done could rival these atrocities. Horde can do whatever it wants now. If Sylvanas asks for the firstborn of stormwind to be delivered to her in mint sauce the only decent thing of Anduin would be to climb into a pot as well.

This was sarcasm. Better go check your dictionary, so you don`t misunderstand me. Also check the words "genocide" and "war crime" while you are at it. Oh wait, can Orcs read? Uhm... ask a nice Blood Elf to explain the words then.

It does not matter one bit who started this war, even if it was the Alliance (which is already false, but eh... the Hordes will never accept that they are to blame AGAIN), even then this does in no way excuse the atrocities Sylvanas has comitted. You are just trying to shift blame onto the Alliance so the fact that she outright murdered a civilian population of thousands seems neglectable. It is not. Sylvanas has comitted warcrime after warcrime in her campaign against hope and life and the Hordes just cry for more blood and happily applaud as long as their favourite undead waifu tells them it is for the Horde.

I know, this is war. There are no rules and bla bla... Stormheim!! Tarajo!!!

Newsflash: There ARE rules for war. It's called Rules of Engagement, they existed for hundreds of years and yes they do exist in Warcraft lore, Garrosh's trial is a clear proof of this fact. Even in war you can't just do whatever you feel like. Some acts are still a crime even if comitted in war times. Sylvanas genocide of the Nightelves most definately falls under that category since it was several steps beyond Theramore and that was already counted for Garrosh.
On top of that we have several things that even by Sylvanas very own rules and experiences are crimes. Taking Derek's free will is the worst thing you can do to a Forsaken, it's Lich King level of evil, which is why one of them actually chose to help Baine.

So if your own people left and right decide that you are going too far, self-reflection might be the way to go, but of course you can also just lable everyone that critizes you a traitor to the Horde (as dictators are fond of doing) and excute them all.
We'll see how much good this does you when suddenly you are all alone. Ah no wait. Sylvanas always has the option of just raising them as her puppets, that will do. Most of the players are her mindless followers already anyway, what does it matter if their bodies are as dead as well?

It is already hard enough that the Alliance will have to stomach letting these followers exist in some capacity and at least on some level forgive them, but when I read posts that blatantly justify genocide and think it's a cool thing to do, I feel that we will have a better atmosphere in the game if the Horde really is wiped out this time. I will take my soft-hearted yet noble King over your psychopathic banshee any day.

[Darth-Piekus]

I know, right? Stormheim and Tarajo!!! Nothing the Horde could ever do or has ever done could rival these atrocities. Horde can do whatever it wants now. If Sylvanas asks for the firstborn of stormwind to be delivered to her in mint sauce the only decent thing of Anduin would be to climb into a pot as well.

This was sarcasm. Better go check your dictionary, so you don`t misunderstand me. Also check the words "genocide" and "war crime" while you are at it. Oh wait, can Orcs read? Uhm... ask a nice Blood Elf to explain the words then.

It does not matter one bit who started this war, even if it was the Alliance (which is already false, but eh... the Hordes will never accept that they are to blame AGAIN), even then this does in no way excuse the atrocities Sylvanas has comitted. You are just trying to shift blame onto the Alliance so the fact that she outright murdered a civilian population of thousands seems neglectable. It is not. Sylvanas has comitted warcrime after warcrime in her campaign against hope and life and the Hordes just cry for more blood and happily applaud as long as their favourite undead waifu tells them it is for the Horde.

I know, this is war. There are no rules and bla bla... Stormheim!! Tarajo!!!

Newsflash: There ARE rules for war. It's called Rules of Engagement, they existed for hundreds of years and yes they do exist in Warcraft lore, Garrosh's trial is a clear proof of this fact. Even in war you can't just do whatever you feel like. Some acts are still a crime even if comitted in war times. Sylvanas genocide of the Nightelves most definately falls under that category since it was several steps beyond Theramore and that was already counted for Garrosh.
On top of that we have several things that even by Sylvanas very own rules and experiences are crimes. Taking Derek's free will is the worst thing you can do to a Forsaken, it's Lich King level of evil, which is why one of them actually chose to help Baine.

So if your own people left and right decide that you are going too far, self-reflection might be the way to go, but of course you can also just lable everyone that critizes you a traitor to the Horde (as dictators are fond of doing) and excute them all.
We'll see how much good this does you when suddenly you are all alone. Ah no wait. Sylvanas always has the option of just raising them as her puppets, that will do. Most of the players are her mindless followers already anyway, what does it matter if their bodies are as dead as well?

It is already hard enough that the Alliance will have to stomach letting these followers exist in some capacity and at least on some level forgive them, but when I read posts that blatantly justify genocide and think it's a cool thing to do, I feel that we will have a better atmosphere in the game if the Horde really is wiped out this time. I will take my soft-hearted yet noble King over your psychopathic banshee any day.

My friend I tip my hat to you. What you described is a repeat of MOP. What's happening in these forums is a repeat of the Garrosh era. The ironic thing is that these people that you described are happy to commit crimes but when time comes to pay the consequences they are crying about how unfair that would be. I don't think it's the whole Horde but if the toxic part of both could be removed it would be best for the game.

[Dagoth Ur]

My friend I tip my hat to you. What you described is a repeat of MOP. What's happening in these forums is a repeat of the Garrosh era. The ironic thing is that these people that you described are happy to commit crimes but when time comes to pay the consequences they are crying about how unfair that would be. I don't think it's the whole Horde but if the toxic part of both could be removed it would be best for the game.

Those guys are evil irl though. Even if you delete Forsaken, it wouldn't be a stretch to think that those people who still follow Sylvanas after she committed literal GENOCIDE to reroll a tauren and role play as Grimtotem and do it again. Exact same level of toxicity as those Garrosh's toxic masculine followers.

I've read a research on tumblr which said that Forsaken players are also more likely to commit actual crime irl. It's unbelievable with what kind of people we share this world with.

[Super Dickmann]

My friend I tip my hat to you. What you described is a repeat of MOP. What's happening in these forums is a repeat of the Garrosh era. The ironic thing is that these people that you described are happy to commit crimes but when time comes to pay the consequences they are crying about how unfair that would be. I don't think it's the whole Horde but if the toxic part of both could be removed it would be best for the game.

I agree, but only if they were physically removed. We can't have them tainting the gene pool irl. Parents who roll Forsaken have children who roll Forsaken.

[Dagoth Ur]

I agree, but only if they were physically removed. We can't have them tainting the gene pool irl. Parents who roll Forsaken have children who roll Forsaken.

I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being classified as genetic disorder. Those people don't even know they're doing evil.

[Super Dickmann]

I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being classified as genetic disorder. Those people don't even know they're doing evil.

That's what makes them so dangerous. Let them go free and they might spread their sick ideas to the general population and before you know it everyone will think it's fine to play a warlike character in a game entirely about conflict and war.

[Moldevort]

Yep, it's time to the end with all this faction war bullshit.

Leave that to a proper full pvp wow or the good old rts ones

[Raisei]

That's what makes them so dangerous. Let them go free and they might spread their sick ideas to the general population and before you know it everyone will think it's fine to play a warlike character in a game entirely about conflict and war.

I do sense a touch of sarcasm here!

Your nonchalant quibs about the subject do not however change the fact that there is still a difference between being a warrior that is trained for war and accepts the challenges of it and being a genocidal zombie that wants to extinquish life and hope and starts with a giant tree full of civilians.

While I dislike war I do accept that we live in a world of warfare and that most people are willing to accept this and train for it. My point was that even in warfare there is something like crimes and accountability. Of course the Horde will deny and ignore this until they are at the receiving end of one of these crimes, then suddenly it is the worst thing in the world and every response is justified.

[Super Dickmann]

While I dislike war I do accept that we live in a world of warfare and that most people are willing to accept this and train for it. My point was that even in warfare there is something like crimes and accountability. Of course the Horde will deny and ignore this until they are at the receiving end of one of these crimes, then suddenly it is the worst thing in the world and every response is justified.

The Horde is not going to be held accountable for anything. Sylvanas will be scapegoated for everything as if she was personally puppetting all the guys screaming about honor while spearing farmers to the walls, enslaving them to work in the mines or sucking their souls into the void as fuel for the spells. Or as if even those who followed orders didn't unquestioningly help torch Teldrassil and so and so forth. Hell, Saurfang has been chopping down kids in three straight wars and I can't go for a walk without tripping over another interminable cinematic about how sad he's meant to be.

Believe me, I'd like nothing more than for the Alliance to at least revert to their Vanilla characterization, grow a pair and go full ham on the Horde, hell, even subjugate it over for a while until we get a rebellion going. I want an enemy I have an in-story reason to want to fight, not a meta one that when they win we'll be just as boring as they are. It's that this isn't going to happen and we'll be playing Teletubbies: Tentacle Edition that infuriates me.

[Mehrunes]

I know, right? Stormheim and Tarajo!!! Nothing the Horde could ever do or has ever done could rival these atrocities. Horde can do whatever it wants now. If Sylvanas asks for the firstborn of stormwind to be delivered to her in mint sauce the only decent thing of Anduin would be to climb into a pot as well.

This was sarcasm. Better go check your dictionary, so you don`t misunderstand me. Also check the words "genocide" and "war crime" while you are at it. Oh wait, can Orcs read? Uhm... ask a nice Blood Elf to explain the words then.

That was first and foremost a straw-man rather than sarcasm, so check that one out yourself. No one is saying nothing could rival Stormheim. But when Alliance starts shit with the Horde expecting the Horde to just bend over isn't exactly logical because the Horde isn't Alliance's lapdog. If the Alliance didn't want Horde's escalation of the conflict they could have not attacked them. Works quite well.

It does not matter one bit who started this war, even if it was the Alliance (which is already false, but eh... the Hordes will never accept that they are to blame AGAIN), even then this does in no way excuse the atrocities Sylvanas has comitted. You are just trying to shift blame onto the Alliance so the fact that she outright murdered a civilian population of thousands seems neglectable. It is not. Sylvanas has comitted warcrime after warcrime in her campaign against hope and life and the Hordes just cry for more blood and happily applaud as long as their favourite undead waifu tells them it is for the Horde.

Do give a source for the numbers of people living in Darnassus. Given how Blizzard never does such things, have fun with that. Also, you managed to be wrong about the start of the war twice in one sentence. First of all, yes, Stormheim is the first spark of conflict since the factions were peaceful with each other and allied against Legion. For god's sake, Anduin outright requested a ceasefire to make the Gathering happen. You can't have a ceasefire without an open conflict. You know, the fire to be ceased. Kinda in the name. The second part where you're wrong is your AGAIN bit because Chronicle v3 flat out said the previous war was started by the Alliance.

I know, this is war. There are no rules and bla bla... Stormheim!! Tarajo!!!

Newsflash: There ARE rules for war. It's called Rules of Engagement, they existed for hundreds of years and yes they do exist in Warcraft lore, Garrosh's trial is a clear proof of this fact. Even in war you can't just do whatever you feel like. Some acts are still a crime even if comitted in war times. Sylvanas genocide of the Nightelves most definately falls under that category since it was several steps beyond Theramore and that was already counted for Garrosh.

And those rules of war have been super developed hundreds of years ago. Oh, wait, just the opposite. And they didn't really cover rules of engagement which is much more modern legal construct than rules of war in general. On top of that there was barely any enforcement of even the little that existed. And Garrosh's kangaroo trial is laughable. It was a complete farce where the judges made the verdict before the trial even began and the prosecution accused Garrosh of being culpable for the actions of the Old Horde. Trying to use Garrosh's trial as some legal standard is simply preposterous.

On top of that we have several things that even by Sylvanas very own rules and experiences are crimes. Taking Derek's free will is the worst thing you can do to a Forsaken, it's Lich King level of evil, which is why one of them actually chose to help Baine.

But his free will wasn't being taken away. Sylvanas was trying to condition Derek, not mentally enslave him like the Lich King did to the Forsaken. Besides, Derek hasn't even joined the Forsaken and as we can see by lobotomized slaves running in undercity or the Desolate Council's reaction to Sylvanas' plan of enslaving Eyir focusing entirely around them just not wanting to live forever, Forsaken use different standards for themselves and others.

So if your own people left and right decide that you are going too far, self-reflection might be the way to go, but of course you can also just lable everyone that critizes you a traitor to the Horde (as dictators are fond of doing) and excute them all.

Since you started the topic of suggesting other people to check things, check the Blood Oath of the Horde. Because it gives the Warchief absolute power and literally calls everyone else the tools of the Warchiefs. Besides, people like Baine or Saurfang didn't just "criticize" Sylvanas, they outright aided the enemy. Which constitutes treason literally everywhere you'd look. And there's like half a dozen of those. Hardly "left and right".

[Super Dickmann]

Teletubbies are already tentacled cosmic horrors from the beyond, they don't need "Tentacle Edition"

The Teletubbies world is what would have happened if Xe'ra won. She's the laughing sun.

[Dagoth Ur]

I do sense a touch of sarcasm here!

Your nonchalant quibs about the subject do not however change the fact that there is still a difference between being a warrior that is trained for war and accepts the challenges of it and being a genocidal zombie that wants to extinquish life and hope and starts with a giant tree full of civilians.

Nonchalant quibs are more about implications that someone who wants to play a genocidal zombie in a video game that runs on conflict is somehow toxic. From in universe perspective though, I'm all with you!

[Mehrunes]

My friend I tip my hat to you. What you described is a repeat of MOP. What's happening in these forums is a repeat of the Garrosh era. The ironic thing is that these people that you described are happy to commit crimes but when time comes to pay the consequences they are crying about how unfair that would be. I don't think it's the whole Horde but if the toxic part of both could be removed it would be best for the game.

Your inability to handle the fact that other people like other things than you do (and, let's face it, also that they committed the grave sin of pointing out in the past, i.e. when you've actually made posts about lore in a lore forum rather than these off-topic remarks about those people, that your lore arguments don't overlap with actual canon sources) is reaching some new and rather bizarre levels. Pinging @Zulkhan because he likes such stuff in his signatures.

[Mehrunes]

Those guys are evil irl though. Even if you delete Forsaken, it wouldn't be a stretch to think that those people who still follow Sylvanas after she committed literal GENOCIDE to reroll a tauren and role play as Grimtotem and do it again. Exact same level of toxicity as those Garrosh's toxic masculine followers.

I've read a research on tumblr which said that Forsaken players are also more likely to commit actual crime irl. It's unbelievable with what kind of people we share this world with.

It's just the tip of the Tumblr (i.e. perfectly accurate representation of everything) - Forsaken iceberg. I've seen things that you wouldn't believe.

That's what makes them so dangerous. Let them go free and they might spread their sick ideas to the general population and before you know it everyone will think it's fine to play a warlike character in a game entirely about conflict and war.

Shhh, just mentioning those ideas aloud is heretical. Do you want Anduin to perform Exterminatus on this forum with the power of his holy bones?

[Dagoth Ur]

The problem is that the entire Horde side has to align. So if the idea is playing genocidal people, it's not just the Forsaken, it has to be everyone else because the way the story is built, you don't get to chose to differentiate when it comes to the overarching faction story.
It's really a problem with the medium. I'm all for the individual's right to play as they want. I have a BG2 playthough with the new characters when after I was done with Trademeet I was so pissed with everyone there wasting my time that I just set the entire town on fire and let my vampire BFF have a banquet. And that's cool in a CRPG because I can have my own story. But I am not sure how the Horde faction story can satisfy both my Forsaken Warlock and my Tauren Resto Shaman.

This isn't something you blame Forsaken players for though. It's not their fault they've been crammed into Horde with vastly different cultures and morals than the one they've chosen to play.

But even if we try to look past that, I still think someone competent could find that sweet middle ground which could encompass most of the Horde races into something at least partially aligned, although that would require reverting stuff left and right at least as far back as TBC.

[Dagoth Ur]

I am not blaming Forsaken players. I am blaming Blizzard. Heck Blizzard makes it fairly clear what the Forsaken stand for in the character intro; it just does not work with what the Tauren stand for in THEIR intro.

Two ways to make it work.
a) Forsaken can be as they are but only in local stories that do not involve the other factions (so e.g. against the Scarlet Crusade). When it comes to the Horde story as a whole, they have to be closer to what the faction originally was supposed to stand for under Thrall.
b) We remove both factions and each race stands on its own and has their own story.

This I agree with. That's why Horde's story seemed more "encompassing" when Forsaken weren't the ones holding the reins and why I'd always give them to (non Thrall) orcs, who are probably the most versatile of Horde's races as far as morality goes.

As far as their personal stories go, you can go all ham there and give Forsaken players what they've actually signed up for.

[Tuhokoura]

I know, right? Stormheim and Tarajo!!! Nothing the Horde could ever do or has ever done could rival these atrocities. Horde can do whatever it wants now. If Sylvanas asks for the firstborn of stormwind to be delivered to her in mint sauce the only decent thing of Anduin would be to climb into a pot as well.

This was sarcasm. Better go check your dictionary, so you don`t misunderstand me. Also check the words "genocide" and "war crime" while you are at it. Oh wait, can Orcs read? Uhm... ask a nice Blood Elf to explain the words then.

It does not matter one bit who started this war, even if it was the Alliance (which is already false, but eh... the Hordes will never accept that they are to blame AGAIN), even then this does in no way excuse the atrocities Sylvanas has comitted. You are just trying to shift blame onto the Alliance so the fact that she outright murdered a civilian population of thousands seems neglectable. It is not. Sylvanas has comitted warcrime after warcrime in her campaign against hope and life and the Hordes just cry for more blood and happily applaud as long as their favourite undead waifu tells them it is for the Horde.

I know, this is war. There are no rules and bla bla... Stormheim!! Tarajo!!!

Newsflash: There ARE rules for war. It's called Rules of Engagement, they existed for hundreds of years and yes they do exist in Warcraft lore, Garrosh's trial is a clear proof of this fact. Even in war you can't just do whatever you feel like. Some acts are still a crime even if comitted in war times. Sylvanas genocide of the Nightelves most definately falls under that category since it was several steps beyond Theramore and that was already counted for Garrosh.
On top of that we have several things that even by Sylvanas very own rules and experiences are crimes. Taking Derek's free will is the worst thing you can do to a Forsaken, it's Lich King level of evil, which is why one of them actually chose to help Baine.

So if your own people left and right decide that you are going too far, self-reflection might be the way to go, but of course you can also just lable everyone that critizes you a traitor to the Horde (as dictators are fond of doing) and excute them all.
We'll see how much good this does you when suddenly you are all alone. Ah no wait. Sylvanas always has the option of just raising them as her puppets, that will do. Most of the players are her mindless followers already anyway, what does it matter if their bodies are as dead as well?

It is already hard enough that the Alliance will have to stomach letting these followers exist in some capacity and at least on some level forgive them, but when I read posts that blatantly justify genocide and think it's a cool thing to do, I feel that we will have a better atmosphere in the game if the Horde really is wiped out this time. I will take my soft-hearted yet noble King over your psychopathic banshee any day.

There is no rules of engagement after the slaughter of innocents and slavery of orcs by the hands of alliance. You are quick to call for such rules to cover you own filth.