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  1. #161
    While not a massive PvP guy I have few great wow experiences. I actually ran battlegrounds and arenas fairly regularly during Wrath, but hardly ever since. And yes I agreed Mists and Legion both provide good fun

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    1) make the comparison with the classes of the Classic does not make sense because you have times that were Vanillia was a new game on the market full of contradictions that in the course of the expansions have been partly improved.
    And you think classes were super complex in TBC or wrath? Lol no, TBC was still mostly one button spam, Wotlk has slight complexity but people were still able to create one button macros.

    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    2) Who ever said more buttons = more fun.
    On this I agree with you.
    Coming back to enha shaman, BfA's has not lost so many buttons compared to legion's, the one that lost all the passive artifacts that completed the spec and did not return, except in a very bland and clumsy way.
    You literally lost one active ability and a bunch of passives/procs that might be as well be completely replaced by flat damage increase:
    https://i.imgur.com/NQqLGCg.png

    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    To give you an example first the primal build primer you had it base-line with the artifact, vanished Alfa-Wolf, the perk of legendary hands disappeared etc. .. are not buttons but are passive that in the passage from Legion to Bfa were removed meaningless.
    Because it didn't really alter your rotation, instead your spec was more RNG reliant. Again, required you to have specific item.

    And the truth is, when expansion transitions from the end of legion to begining of bfa your bases stats such as haste are being reduced a lot, thats why you think spec is "bland". And system where you have to get specific item (legendaries) for your class to feel good is shit system.

    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    Those of BfA are hallucinating clearly unbalanced if you add up the last half of the parse you arrive around to make the parse of the Havoc.
    But besides this there is a clear disparity between the first half and the last half, there is the empty thing which is not so marked in the Hellfire Citadel log (except for the first 2 specs).
    Not to go back too far, take for example the parse of legion
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/17 - Antorus
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/13 - Tos
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/11 - NightHold
    See how the parses are more distributed and homogeneous than bfa.
    Why?
    Simple, the spec / classes were better thought out and more interesting to play.
    Lol no. Class balance has nothing to do with how fun is class to play, they were not better thought out. In fact some abilities were complete garbage in terms of lore and gameplay -> sidewinders.

    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    This means that in spite of players who use the classes in the middle, they have an adequate ILV, but these fail to excel even in favorable situations (they are mostly mediocre) because:

    1) they do not have the necessary tools to compete with the other specs and not only in terms of pure dps.
    Example: take the arms warrior into consideration.
    The ONLY class that excels in raids in terms of something different than just pure dps is warlock because warlock is tanky as fuck. Maybe just Havoc can hold a candle.

    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    Why, despite being in mid-position, does it have such low pars (around 1500 against the 54,000 of havoc)?
    Because it is a spec it dies too many times and therefore not desirable.
    The BM also dies several times but this is a spec that has many utilities that the arms warrior does not have (immunty, stun base-line etc).
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...#metric=deaths
    You are really taking some weird not related statistics. Arms if far less seen in mythic simply because it has low APM and Fury is generally better. It is a spec where you can brew yourself a tea while doing rotation.

    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    2) many fights fit little into these classes.

    Furthermore you have posted an 80% ETP parse while the 90% ETP parse are even higher and 95% is similar to the 90% numbers.
    So this invalidates your statement "As rotation helper addon developer I can only tell you this: No human being able to perform perfect rotation aside from few specs: BM hunter, Warrior fury and maybe ret pala. Classes being easy? Not even close . "
    Nope try again, 100% is still bound by human limitations, write good bot for all classes, make all dpses use it and you will see your ranks being at 95%+ (cause it also depends on rng, gear and tactics).

    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    So it seems to me that there are many players who manage to use their class to the maximum by making few mistakes, thanks to the over-simplified nature that the different specs have.
    Those "many players" are really small percentage compared to whole participation.

    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    I myself have been playing for several years and I have never felt the need for a tool to tell me what to do especially in bfa.
    Because you don't. Unless you are aspiring to top 1-200, you might also play any spec you like. You never needed one, but on the other hand, I havent seen much people who can play better. AND most important thing. Here is the rotation for enh shammy for legion:
    https://github.com/kaminaris/MaxDps-.../main.lua#L152

    And here is for BfA:
    https://github.com/kaminaris/MaxDps-...nhancement.lua

    In simcraft it is:
    Legion:
    https://github.com/simulationcraft/s...hancement.simc

    BfA APL:
    https://github.com/simulationcraft/s...hancement.simc

    Which one is more complex?

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    And you think classes were super complex in TBC or wrath? Lol no, TBC was still mostly one button spam, Wotlk has slight complexity but people were still able to create one button macros.
    Tbc I played little for work reasons so I do not judge it, Wotlk instead yes better class design hands down.
    Moreover I absolutely forbid the famous "one-button rotation macro" and the different add-ons like GSE. For me it's like cheating.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    You literally lost one active ability and a bunch of passives/procs that might be as well be completely replaced by flat damage increase:
    https://i.imgur.com/NQqLGCg.png
    Few passive, but they made the difference, which you no longer have or you have, but you are always renouncing to something else because put in a bad way via talents or azibonus.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Lol no. Class balance has nothing to do with how fun is class to play, they were not better thought out. In fact some abilities were complete garbage in terms of lore and gameplay -> sidewinders.
    Exactly, and that's exactly what I try to make you understand.
    There is a reason why there was more variety in the classes earlier than now. In the first place there was the meta, and yet you saw classes that were not really performing, having good parse.
    Why is this not happening in bfa? The answer is that they are ugly and too similar to each other more than in the past.
    It is normal that then at that point I play the class that performs best
    By Parse I mean not the percenitle but the number of iterations that that class has had in a given period of time.
    The higher the value, the more people play that class.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    The ONLY class that excels in raids in terms of something different than just pure dps is warlock because warlock is tanky as fuck. Maybe just Havoc can hold a candle.
    subjective this thing

    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    You are really taking some weird not related statistics. Arms if far less seen in mythic simply because it has low APM and Fury is generally better. It is a spec where you can brew yourself a tea while doing rotation.
    Take the first mythical ETP boss
    The same player plays the fury first and then the arm.
    % Activity in both cases> 99% so it has not undergone particular mechanics to justify any downtime.

    APM Arms: 72.6, dps 56K over 3min fight
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...t=1&type=casts

    APM Fury: 68.69, dps 50K over 3min fight
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...t=1&type=casts

    So it is absolutely not true that the arms is always less dps, less apm than a fury with the same gear
    Here again give proof that you don't know what you're talking about.
    Certainly a fury is slightly more banal than a arms.
    In Bfa there is no longer the difficult class, maybe a little bit sub-rogue.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Nope try again, 100% is still bound by human limitations, write good bot for all classes, make all dpses use it and you will see your ranks being at 95%+ (cause it also depends on rng, gear and tactics).
    What you say is true but it is also true that reaching certain standards is much simpler than then and not thanks to macros or anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Those "many players" are really small percentage compared to whole participation.
    and in any case at the level of numbers of parse are HC> MY> NM> LFR. So the hc, my players are not as few as you think.
    The farmers, trasmo-runners, the battlePetters, for me they don't count because for them having a class that works (both in terms of numbers and game-play) or not, doesn't really matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Because you don't. Unless you are aspiring to top 1-200, you might also play any spec you like. You never needed one, but on the other hand, I havent seen much people who can play better. AND most important thing. Here is the rotation for enh shammy for legion:
    https://github.com/kaminaris/MaxDps-.../main.lua#L152

    And here is for BfA:
    https://github.com/kaminaris/MaxDps-...nhancement.lua

    In simcraft it is:
    Legion:
    https://github.com/simulationcraft/s...hancement.simc

    BfA APL:
    https://github.com/simulationcraft/s...hancement.simc

    Which one is more complex?
    I read your bfa file lua file.
    And thanks to the fucking thing that is more complex you put in code on talents that nobody uses from the beginning of expansion, trinket that someone doesn't even use, weapons too, you put the primal primer build that nobody uses for months.
    Furthermore your code is more complex due to the different perks coming from external sources and net of this it is reduced a lot, like (if not less) than the legion code.
    In the legion code, where are the legendaries?

  4. #164
    2006 - 2010
    so some Vanilla through end of Wrath or something like that

    basically the first few years i started playing lol

  5. #165
    I really enjoyed WotLK, looking back, I actually had a great time in Cataclysm, probably my best time in WoW, I think what left a bad taste in players mouths was almost exclusively Dragon Soul being one of the worst raids ever made, if not the worst. It had 1-2 good bosses and the others including Deathwing himself being absolutely utterly garbage, followed by a HUGE wait to the next expansion. It really killed it for me. But BWD, BoT, Throne, Firelands and all the dungeons were brilliant! And there was no boring daily grinds you had to do.

    MoP I had a great time with one exception. I hate legendary items like the cloak, ring from WoD so I pretty much hated it when I came back until I got the cloak, then it was good fun, Id say for its time it was the best looking expansion ever too.

    WoD was abysmal, after I saw the legendary system was coming back (the ring) I just quit, I cba doing that on all my alts. Im sure the dungeons and raids were as good as people say they are, and I regret not being able to play them, but Im not prepared to play enough to get the lego on all my chars just to be able to do them so. 0/10 for me.

    Legion, was great, M+ was amazing fun, raids were great, allied races as much as I dislike them now, its good to see blizzard realise they need to do more with character customisation and expression, they just did it wrong imo. The double edges sword for me here was the legendaries. GREAT fun, amazing effects and different gameplay styles based on what legos you had. How you got them, how alt unfriendly they were, were a serious issue for me, and it sucked all the fun out of me playing my alts.

    BfA, just trash, I said Azerite was going to be garbage when it was announced, and It was, a mess of daily quests and daily 'to dos' that I dont want nor have time to do, and again, alt unfriendly as hell. Havent played as a result.

    I miss the systems around in Cata honestly.

  6. #166
    Legendary! Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Imo, A few expansions had different "Best" experience. MoP, for instance, had both the best tanking, and the best version of warlocks. Imo, Cata was best for Druids, WOD best for warriors, hunters/DKs had the best version in Wrath, and Paladins had the best version in BC (Before Blizz started stripping Paladins of utility buffs)
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  7. #167
    High Overlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Imo people's best wow experience will be at the time they had the best group of people to play the game with and will have much less to do with the game itself.
    This guy nailed it. The topic is so incredibly subjective which makes this really the only credible answer. Beginning of Cataclysm was the best time for me (as well as my friends). It's not because the game was better then than in other expansions, it was because my tight knit group of friends were all playing enthusiastically together.

  8. #168
    cata / mop honestly

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    Tbc I played little for work reasons so I do not judge it, Wotlk instead yes better class design hands down.
    Moreover I absolutely forbid the famous "one-button rotation macro" and the different add-ons like GSE. For me it's like cheating.
    If class can have one button macro, then it's not a good class design - super simple one.

    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    Few passive, but they made the difference, which you no longer have or you have, but you are always renouncing to something else because put in a bad way via talents or azibonus.
    What difference did it make? Almost none. This looks like some serious case of delusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    Exactly, and that's exactly what I try to make you understand.
    There is a reason why there was more variety in the classes earlier than now. In the first place there was the meta, and yet you saw classes that were not really performing, having good parse.
    Why is this not happening in bfa? The answer is that they are ugly and too similar to each other more than in the past.
    It is normal that then at that point I play the class that performs best
    By Parse I mean not the percenitle but the number of iterations that that class has had in a given period of time.
    The higher the value, the more people play that class.
    This is completely not related, most classes didn't change much since Legion and you are showing me some Legion raid statistics. It's irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    Take the first mythical ETP boss
    The same player plays the fury first and then the arm.
    % Activity in both cases> 99% so it has not undergone particular mechanics to justify any downtime.

    APM Arms: 72.6, dps 56K over 3min fight
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...t=1&type=casts

    APM Fury: 68.69, dps 50K over 3min fight
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...t=1&type=casts

    So it is absolutely not true that the arms is always less dps, less apm than a fury with the same gear
    Never said anything about dps, I said arms is slower, by far than fury. https://simulationcraft.org/reports/T23_Raid.html
    Look at Actions Per minut and Raid downtime. It also have 12% downtime.

    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    Here again give proof that you don't know what you're talking about.
    Certainly a fury is slightly more banal than a arms.
    In Bfa there is no longer the difficult class, maybe a little bit sub-rogue.
    Completely false, I've just showed you enhancement shaman got more complex, overall complexity of 36 specs is roughly the same as in legion.

    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    What you say is true but it is also true that reaching certain standards is much simpler than then and not thanks to macros or anything else.
    No it is not, complexity is still about the same in legion and higher than in previous expansions especially pre MoP.

    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    and in any case at the level of numbers of parse are HC> MY> NM> LFR. So the hc, my players are not as few as you think.
    The farmers, trasmo-runners, the battlePetters, for me they don't count because for them having a class that works (both in terms of numbers and game-play) or not, doesn't really matter.
    No matter which difficulty you chose, result will be the same, people capable of performing over 90%+ is maybe like 2-3%? Maybe even less.


    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    I read your bfa file lua file.
    And thanks to the fucking thing that is more complex you put in code on talents that nobody uses from the beginning of expansion, trinket that someone doesn't even use, weapons too, you put the primal primer build that nobody uses for months.
    Furthermore your code is more complex due to the different perks coming from external sources and net of this it is reduced a lot, like (if not less) than the legion code.
    In the legion code, where are the legendaries?
    You do realize simcraft does include all talents and all items to watch for right?
    You know what that means?

    That no legendary actually did affect your rotation as enh
    No, code is not easier, it is far more complex than it was because azerite gear does affect rotation. I've made all DPS classes since MoP and this is the hard to swallow truth: Azerite gear affects rotations much more than any previous system did.

  10. #170
    TBC and Legion. Two expansions with focus on character progression. TBC best by far when it comes to raiding, Legion for everything else. Class Halls and all the content that came with it, which does include Artifact Weapon progression, artifact skin hunting, class/spec storyline, Suramar, Mage Tower Challenge, and Class Mount(that questline sucked though, gotta be said)

    WotLK and BfA obviously being disappointing for me following those amazing expansions, but World of Warcraft is just awesome amirite!
    Zandalari theme ftw! PURE GOLD!

    Horde bad, smash, monkey! Who is a good monkey? You are!

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    If class can have one button macro, then it's not a good class design - super simple one.
    now it's more complex because of the GCD otherwise you'd see proliferating addons for one-button rotation

    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    What difference did it make? Almost none. This looks like some serious case of delusion.
    no, in fact, the point is that as in legion the base-line classes were really poor, but between legendary, tier sets and artifact they added almost permanent layers that completed the specs.
    Now you have the same legion classes without having those permanent leyers. Unfortunately Azerite armor is not able to fill the different levels that were in Legion and only 2/3 traits of azerite per class can be considered acceptable, the others are so badly thought that they find very little space.


    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    This is completely not related, most classes didn't change much since Legion and you are showing me some Legion raid statistics. It's irrelevant.
    It is irrelevant when it suits to you, although I have proved to you that the situation in Legion was very different.


    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Never said anything about dps, I said arms is slower, by far than fury. https://simulationcraft.org/reports/T23_Raid.html
    Look at Actions Per minut and Raid downtime. It also have 12% downtime.
    You give me the simulcraft data that are purely theoretical data made on a dummy, but in reality the situation is very different as from the logs.
    Arcane is a bottom tier since the expansion came out, the spriest is the god tier from bod onwards despite simcraft continues to put it in the last positions
    This Simdata is worth 0 and does not prove anything.


    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Completely false, I've just showed you enhancement shaman got more complex, overall complexity of 36 specs is roughly the same as in legion.
    Of course if you look at the code it is more complex than that of Legion (where I repeat they are not present Legendary and Tier set).
    But it is full of garbage, there is trait of Strengh of Earth (which nobody uses), trait of Primal Primer (which nobody uses), talents that no one has used for months.
    In legion you had everything together at the same time, you had Strengh of Earth which is the black version of the last TSet of Legion, primal primer, elementary wolves, natural harmony which is the perk of the old legendary ring and so on. which made everything more complex and compelling.
    Now, however, everything is mutually exclusive.
    In the end you only showed me distorted data that is worth 0


    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    That no legendary actually did affect your rotation as enh
    No, code is not easier, it is far more complex than it was because azerite gear does affect rotation. I've made all DPS classes since MoP and this is the hard to swallow truth: Azerite gear affects rotations much more than any previous system did.

    Returning to the previous speech,
    It is true that some traits of azerite change your gameplay.
    But as said before some traits exclude others and the increase of complexity given is not repaid by the results both in terms of fun and numbers (see SoE build and PP build build that I remind you again you had together in legion with the Tset + artifact ).
    Take the azibonus bis:
    - Rolling storm that does not change your rotation (x1)
    - Natural Harmony that does not change your rotation (x2 / x3)
    - Ancestral Resonance, that does not change your rotation (x2)
    - Tunderran Fury that does not change your rotation (x1)
    The other traits are not even to be considered since the complexity / effectiveness ratio is close to 0
    Furthermore the essences alter very little the complexities of the specs as they are mostly Fire & Forget and passive skills with little impact on the rotation level.
    So your famous complexity, in the end, is drastically reduced as all these calculations and theoretical data eventually slip very little into reality.
    And if you don't understand this then change jobs or hobbies.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    now it's more complex because of the GCD otherwise you'd see proliferating addons for one-button rotation
    Not really, GCD doesn't stop you from doing one button macros, like its not even an obstacle.


    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    no, in fact, the point is that as in legion the base-line classes were really poor, but between legendary, tier sets and artifact they added almost permanent layers that completed the specs.
    Now you have the same legion classes without having those permanent leyers. Unfortunately Azerite armor is not able to fill the different levels that were in Legion and only 2/3 traits of azerite per class can be considered acceptable, the others are so badly thought that they find very little space.
    Ok so, there were legendaries that did in fact changed gameplay and somehow "completed" your spec. But artifact itself was 99% boring for most of the classes.
    None of these layers you are speaking about was permanent and that was the biggest issue with legion. Because if you didn't get that BiS legendary for half expansion. Half expansion was ruined.

    Azerite gear changes gameplay far more often than you think. It is on par with talent system. And you really don't need to relay on RNG to get specific traits.
    3 weeks after 8.2 and I already got 3xBiS trait 445 by that time.

    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    It is irrelevant when it suits to you, although I have proved to you that the situation in Legion was very different.
    Because it wasn't different. BfA shares over 80% of class similarity to legion. Balance on raid is practically the same. Just because you cherry pick some exception doesn't make it true.


    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    You give me the simulcraft data that are purely theoretical data made on a dummy, but in reality the situation is very different as from the logs.
    Arcane is a bottom tier since the expansion came out, the spriest is the god tier from bod onwards despite simcraft continues to put it in the last positions
    This Simdata is worth 0 and does not prove anything.
    Did you read what I wrote? I said look at APM and Downtime, not damage.


    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    Of course if you look at the code it is more complex than that of Legion (where I repeat they are not present Legendary and Tier set).
    But it is full of garbage, there is trait of Strengh of Earth (which nobody uses), trait of Primal Primer (which nobody uses), talents that no one has used for months.
    In legion you had everything together at the same time, you had Strengh of Earth which is the black version of the last TSet of Legion, primal primer, elementary wolves, natural harmony which is the perk of the old legendary ring and so on. which made everything more complex and compelling.
    Now, however, everything is mutually exclusive.
    In the end you only showed me distorted data that is worth 0
    They do include tier sets and legendaries, fact is, not every class had tier set and legendary which changed rotation. Only few classes had such thing.
    It's pointless to say "which nobody uses" because you may get bis trait PLUS the one "which nobody uses" yet you still need to adapt to make use of that trait.


    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    Returning to the previous speech,
    It is true that some traits of azerite change your gameplay.
    Which makes it a lot if you skim over all classes.
    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    But as said before some traits exclude others and the increase of complexity given is not repaid by the results both in terms of fun and numbers (see SoE build and PP build build that I remind you again you had together in legion with the Tset + artifact ).
    Which is not true if you didn't get lucky for half of expansion and had prydaz + sephuz. And "fun" is completely subjective.

    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    Take the azibonus bis:
    - Rolling storm that does not change your rotation (x1)
    - Natural Harmony that does not change your rotation (x2 / x3)
    - Ancestral Resonance, that does not change your rotation (x2)
    - Tunderran Fury that does not change your rotation (x1)
    The other traits are not even to be considered since the complexity / effectiveness ratio is close to 0
    Furthermore the essences alter very little the complexities of the specs as they are mostly Fire & Forget and passive skills with little impact on the rotation level.
    So your famous complexity, in the end, is drastically reduced as all these calculations and theoretical data eventually slip very little into reality.
    And if you don't understand this then change jobs or hobbies.
    Again, you are basing your opinion on one spec. I base my opinion on 36 specs having completed all mythic raids in legion plus doing all 36 mage tower challenges and upkeeping all classes to max level since mop.

  13. #173

  14. #174
    It's a toss up between BC and WotLK.

    In BC I remember how excited I was walking through the Dark Portal for the first time and seeing what Outlands was like. I was so excited to start questing in Outlands after being stuck in Azeroth all that time. This was the first time I ever experienced something outside of Azeroth. Also Blood Elves came out and I immediately made a paladin who I still have and play on today. Most of my WoW memories come from the BC era. Raiding Karazhan was one of my favorite moments. Using vent and listening to my guildmates as we ventured through my all time favorite raid was an experience I'll never forget.

    WotLK I just remember being a breath of fresh air. No more space demons or fel fire stuff. Now we were dealing with the undead scourge. The pre launch event with the undead infecting cities I thought was the most genius idea Blizzard ever did with their pre expansion events. The Nordic theme of Northrend I thought was badass and I loved the gear designs much more than the BC sets. One of my most fond memories was raiding Naxx with my guild.

    So It's one of those two. I can't really decide which was better.
    Last edited by Grubenwolf; 2019-09-14 at 05:37 PM.

  15. #175
    The Lightbringer Xlightning's Avatar
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    People can say whatever they want but BfA raid encounters are super well designed and fun. About PvP? WotLK without a single doubt.

  16. #176
    Mechagnome Biggayshammy's Avatar
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    For me, the best experience was starting on the back end of TBC and then transitioning into WOTLK, that's when I finally got to raid and make friends in the game. After that, I'm not sure where I lost interest. But one of my favorite memories is telling the guild I raided with that I was deaf so I didn't use vent. I just didn't want to listen to people talk, never hindered my raiding either.

    sidenote: I haven't logged into this sight in I don't know how long but I follow it sometimes to see what's going on, felt the need to log on to post in this thread.

  17. #177
    Almost the entire stretch from TBC to MoP was good. Cata had problems late in it's lifespan (Dragon Soul still sucks), but I think that expansion was rather underrated by a lot of people. The systems designs were really good, it's just some of the content that really let it down, including dungeons and raids.

    If I have to pick 1 patch that is my "ideal" version of WoW, I guess it would be 3.3.5.

  18. #178
    I'll cut it short since nobody will read my wall of text stories anyway.

    My best WoW experience came from classic (As in 2006). I didn't even hit max level though.

    The expansion I had the most fun in was Cata. Got my highest arena rating, made the most friends, and I had a server rep. Horde would talk about me in their trade chat (I was Alliance). Good times, I like low pop servers.

  19. #179
    The Lightbringer
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Demacia
    Posts
    3,145
    Wrath was the highpoint of some classes/specs (especially mine), had gameplay balanced around ease and entertainment rather than power or complexity, mix of very simple and very good raids that had heaps of internal variety and it finished off the main storyline of the entire setting.

    Every single thing added to the game afterwards came at the cost of badness in some way. Sometimes there was more good than bad like Legion and sometimes more bad than good like Warlords. Artifacts, for instance, added a lot of extra gameplay to specs that had been stripped down to pathetic unplayable garbage but they also introduced AP grinds that are the most tedious and irrelevant grind in a game with lots of tedious irrelevant grinds. Legion's storyline was fucking awful so even while the class experiences were mostly good and sometimes amazing like the DK one, the power level and fanservicey nature of it all just killed off any sense of danger in the setting. I didn't think it could be more ridiculous than fighting on the back of a dragon, which was by far the coolest concept I'd ever heard of, but Sargeras coming out of a cloud to stab the planet did it. This is even in an expansion widely considered good or at least better than those before and after it and I honestly liked Legion as a whole.

    My point is that Wrath had it all at a no-cost improvement over BC which was itself a big step up from Vanilla. Cata started to kill talent trees and shifted class design to be balanced around power and complexity which was its doom. It added needless fiddliness to some classes like Holy Power and just started removing 'bloat' as they started to call fun class abilities and style and for what? Pandaria at least offset this terrible decision by adding a lot of new things alongside the things it took out but, sadly, Warlords took more away. Legion adds and removes artifacts and BFA added Traits and Essences which, obviously, will be gone again next time. Jury is out on what they're gonna do to classes but if it's anything but Wrath-style "lol have heaps of fun shit and who cares how 'fair' it is", it's going to suck.
    Paladin Bash has spoken.

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