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  1. #241
    Shockadins for the win

  2. #242
    Definitely better for leveling/sense of progression, and kinda...? more choices. Plus I would say it looks more appealing/better visually. I am RETRIBUTION, I am DISCIPLINE, etc.
    Downsides for sure are the many absolutely useless 1% increase talents and some strange talent tree choices. Then again, this was vanilla with all it's if you can heal, you will heal and only tanks are warriors ideology.

  3. #243
    Yeah, I was always hyped to get all those Demonology Warlock talents that buff pets just to get to "Demonic Sacrifice".
    Which in turn is a pre-requisite for "Soul Link", that requires you to have a pet.

  4. #244
    I disagree.

    While the talent trees made it seem like you had a lot of options to pick from, everybody knows they were always cookie cutter trees. Every Classic vet player knows there was always only one way to spec your character. There was always one spec that was better than the other two and if you weren't in that spec you get called out for it. It happened to me plenty of times back then. I would play as a fire mage and people would inspect my talents and say "you should go arcane, it's better DPS". I would politely say something like "well I find fire more fun" and then they would respond with something like "well you might get kicked because you'll be doing low DPS".

    How is that better? How is that even fun? How am I supposed to have fun with a game if I can't play the game the way I want but rather how other people want me to play? That's why I think the current trees are better because there really isn't any talents or specs that are better than others. At least not on the same level as back in vanilla days. It's whatever you feel would be more fun to play. Sure there's always room for improvement but I think they're certainly better than those cookie cutter trees.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by lyphe View Post
    I had actually bought into the idea of the new retail talent system being good ... until ... coming back to play Classic.
    The old talent trees were so much more interesting.

    Hope you are enjoying!
    Absolutely not, because despite there being “more” to choose from it certainly doesn’t become the case when people won’t group with you at end game or guilds won’t take you to raids unless you have a certain cookie cutter build. Hell, any levelling guide you find out there will have a set build for you to follow. A lot of those talents over the years Blizzard just integrated into spells or passives because they were utterly pointless.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    Absolutely not, because despite there being “more” to choose from it certainly doesn’t become the case when people won’t group with you at end game or guilds won’t take you to raids unless you have a certain cookie cutter build. Hell, any levelling guide you find out there will have a set build for you to follow. A lot of those talents over the years Blizzard just integrated into spells or passives because they were utterly pointless.
    Well, there are at least 2 different kinds of players.

    One that wants to just build niche specs they really like, and don't overly care about what anyone else thinks of it. (and isn't worried about being excluded from higher level group play)

    One that cares about being at optimal performance and power for group play and is willing to give up some flair in order to ensure they aren't excluded

    The old talent tree was great for the first type of player, the new style is better(I think) for the later style player.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubenwolf View Post
    How am I supposed to have fun with a game if I can't play the game the way I want but rather how other people want me to play?
    How is it any different today? The same shit happens, regardless of the talent system.

    Certain specs won't be taken into "high-end" raiding or Mythic+ runs just as much, if not more, even when the difference in performance is far less significant than it was in Vanilla.

    And when it comes to talents, there are right and wrong choices, despite only having a handful of talents. In many cases there's only real pick in each talent tier, and when that isn't the case it's simply a case of selecting whether you want an AoE talent, or a single-target talent, or a utility talent. There's still an ideal choice for whatever type of content you're doing, and you will be called out if you don't take it - the only difference is that you can quickly change it on demand - but again that's not necessarily a problem of the talent system itself.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Acolyyte View Post
    I disagree, respectfully. Classic's trees allow for true flexibility and hybrid builds. They encourage experimentation and I find getting a talent point every lvl to be way more rewarding than one every 15 lvls or whatever.
    I will respectfully disagree with you as well it APPEARS to promote flex but in reality there is is a set build that will outperform the others and you will be doing yourself and groupmates a disservice when you veer from it. Id say you might have 3-5 points u can do whatever with but that might not be true all cases

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    Well, there are at least 2 different kinds of players.

    One that wants to just build niche specs they really like, and don't overly care about what anyone else thinks of it. (and isn't worried about being excluded from higher level group play)

    One that cares about being at optimal performance and power for group play and is willing to give up some flair in order to ensure they aren't excluded

    The old talent tree was great for the first type of player, the new style is better(I think) for the later style player.
    i think you do a good job of summoning it up. a lot of us would like talents to be better balanced or at least give compelling playstyle choices without too much dps loss between them but the devs are overloaded.

    Overloaded ambition
    Overloaded work loads
    Overloaded crap the keeps churning out for people to always have something to do so anyone who wants to raid is overloaded with work

  10. #250
    High Overlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkeymootwo View Post
    You have the same option on live though...
    You don't see the difference?
    <Multipass>

  11. #251
    well its nice to see some people share my feelings on old talent trees, i liked them a lot and was sour when they removed for the current abomination.
    I'm not gonna debate if it was better or not BUT it sure as hell made me feel better and now with classic once again makes me feel better, having a choice to make every lvl up is so much more fun and rewarding even if its only an illusion because lets be fair, the argument that old vanilla talent trees forced cookie cutter builds upon you hasnt changed a bit with the new talent trees in retail.

    I hope Blizzard notices and makes some changes back to nostalgic classic design in their next retail expansion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    are you saying current retail specs dont force you in a cookie cutter build?

    - - - Updated - - -

    this kind of attitude is what has given birth to current day community?

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    I think the style was better but as was pointed out when they made the change, they could have been more diverse in outcome, 5 talent points to give you 1% crit 5 times isn't that exciting, BUT the spec defining talents definitely were. So "keep" the old style, fine but ensure that each tier had at least something that would make you want to pick and choose, rather than mostly bland "X does a bit more" stuff, and a cool ability every 2 or 3 tiers.
    5% crit is pretty exciting.

    Also, before you'd get 6 talent points for 5% crit + some ability, now you get 1 talent point for an ability and 5% crit is baseline. This is no actual change other than psychology. Before when you had to spend or waste 5 talent points to get 1 really good talent point, that "felt" meaningful (even though it wasn't, and it was baked in to the cost/budget of the talent design).

    The actual "change" with talents was not letting you get talents from another spec... but for many classes those talents are now shared in each tree, so instead of spending X points in Y spec to get Z, you just get Z at level 40 as part of your main spec. Which is no actual change either! But Blizzard gets to curate the list of shared talents, so you can't do something unexpected like take too many healing talents as a DPS spec and become unstoppable in PVP. <--- there's the real change.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  13. #253
    I got in for first time last night and tried my hardest to push to 10 last night, but sadly only got to 9 I cannot wait to place my first talent into the Tree I am having an absolute blast.

  14. #254
    I think the point of what a lot of people are missing here is that, yeah, the small % increases being most of the talents is basically just baseline in bfa, so it's the same thing overall, but just the feeling of you doing it yourself to improve your character yourself vs. it just being automated. Like yeah it's the same result but it just brings back that RPG feel that doesn't exist in BFA of YOU building your character up, one step at a time, one small increase at a time.
    www.twitch.tv/aurakol

    I do not stream seriously or regularly

  15. #255
    I remember when blizzard fought tooth and nail saying the new talents were better because they incentivize more choices on the spot and removed cookie cutter builds, the goddamn irony.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubenwolf View Post
    I disagree.

    While the talent trees made it seem like you had a lot of options to pick from, everybody knows they were always cookie cutter trees. Every Classic vet player knows there was always only one way to spec your character. There was always one spec that was better than the other two and if you weren't in that spec you get called out for it. It happened to me plenty of times back then. I would play as a fire mage and people would inspect my talents and say "you should go arcane, it's better DPS". I would politely say something like "well I find fire more fun" and then they would respond with something like "well you might get kicked because you'll be doing low DPS".

    How is that better? How is that even fun? How am I supposed to have fun with a game if I can't play the game the way I want but rather how other people want me to play? That's why I think the current trees are better because there really isn't any talents or specs that are better than others. At least not on the same level as back in vanilla days. It's whatever you feel would be more fun to play. Sure there's always room for improvement but I think they're certainly better than those cookie cutter trees.
    I'm sure people inspected your talents all the time in vanilla.


    Hope this wasn't bait

  17. #257
    Its better for levelling, not for end game
    People don't forgive, they forget. - Rust Cohle

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubenwolf View Post
    I disagree.

    While the talent trees made it seem like you had a lot of options to pick from, everybody knows they were always cookie cutter trees. Every Classic vet player knows there was always only one way to spec your character. There was always one spec that was better than the other two and if you weren't in that spec you get called out for it. It happened to me plenty of times back then. I would play as a fire mage and people would inspect my talents and say "you should go arcane, it's better DPS". I would politely say something like "well I find fire more fun" and then they would respond with something like "well you might get kicked because you'll be doing low DPS".

    How is that better? How is that even fun? How am I supposed to have fun with a game if I can't play the game the way I want but rather how other people want me to play? That's why I think the current trees are better because there really isn't any talents or specs that are better than others. At least not on the same level as back in vanilla days. It's whatever you feel would be more fun to play. Sure there's always room for improvement but I think they're certainly better than those cookie cutter trees.
    I don't think the whole cookie cutter thing is going to matter in Classic, I remember back in Vanilla the hardest part of the raids was getting 40 warm bodies in the group most of the runs my guild and many others did borrowed alts and off spec raiders from each other to have 30-35 raiders. The thing is there were only a few key people that had any real idea what they were doing in Vanilla. Now the majority of players have been at this for 15 years and know more then the best players back then. I think there will be entirely new specs and classes in niche places through end game raiding that are vastly different from Vanilla.

  19. #259
    The Insane FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nnyco View Post
    Ah ye, i cast a spell now 1% faster, oh my is this such a better talent system!

    Its literally the same talent system, you get somethin important like every 15-20levels and everythin in between is garbo that should be baseline, except now i dont have it baseline.
    i am currently putting points into "Your dps curse does 2% extra damage" so over 5 levels i can make ONE spell, do 10% more, and its not even a normal cast spell, since its a curse it fills a spot much better curses could.
    only reason im using it is for leveling./
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Azerite is absolutely RNG you are right. You have no idea what traits will be on that piece you got from a random source until you roll it. I've literally had a Warfront piece that had the "opposite faction" passive and no passive/proc for my spec but it did for the other 2.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Until you get declined for not copying icy-veins/wowhead while trying to be a special snowflake about something that was known 15 years ago about how you should be specced.

    In before LFR heroes tell me "I play how i want".

    In before LFR heroes report me for stating the truth.

    PS. Sure, the feel of speccing every level is fun,anything after that, you are simply showing your horrendous level of game skill/player, call it whatever.
    You can't see anyone's talents. I've gotten away with healing as an rsham with 31 points in enhance all the way through aq. Raids just need bodies bro.

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