World First Ragnaros and Onyxia Kill on Classic by APES - Gehennas EU

[Loqolock]

I'm surprised that people got to level 60 in a few days, I remember the grind being longer than that.

But I'm not surprised that MC and Ony got cleared very soon after people were hitting 60.

The raids were not mechanically challenging, and nothing like the complexity of raids in later expansions.

like 90% of the people in this comment section you fail to realise what guild cleared these 2 raids.
Its APES, they are a hardcore guild that have been playing Classic private servers for YEARS, while we were playing retail.
They have insane amount of knowledge about the game and also put that into practice over the years. They know the game inside out.

Dont expect retail players, or any average guild that doesnt have nearly as much experience as these people to clear raids that quickly.
Thats why it will be tough for retail players to get Scarab Lord and stuff or any other World Firsts.
They just cant stand up to Classic veteran players.

[Frozenbro]

Imagine thinking layering is a bug/exploit when it was implemented by blizz on purpose to smooth the gameplay experience, now can you make your braincells work pls.

[DarkAmbient]

Whether it's more "casual friendly" is missing the point. That is a complex argument, the truth is much simpler. It's to do with how the game presents its systems and information in a manner that constantly reminds bad players they are bad. In Classic, almost anyone can be a hero with enough time commitment. Even if they know they will likely never get there, it is a very different thing to knowing you'll never get there because you lack the skill, and then having this constantly rubbed in your face.

I actually agree with this. I define myself as a casual player, maybe not in time played but in the difficulty of content that I do. I never do mythic dungeons, and I don't set foot in a raid unless it's LFR. But when I'm out doing world quests with my 410 ilvl and 240k health and I see other DPS with 330k+ health absolutely wrecking mobs it does suck a little bit. Now, I know Classic raiders in epics will also be wrecking mobs compared to people still in greens and blues, but I also know the content you have to do to get the gear isn't too hard for me, so I don't feel bad about it.

[Makabreska]

the skill comes from the planning and executing the speedleveling/reputation/etc to get there not necessarily the mechanical skill required to down the bosses.

noone claimed the bosses themselves for challenging.

but getting there in like 6 days is still impressive

Oh, but they did. Peeps were claiming for years how the raids themselves were harder than w/e retail had to offer.

[Thelyron]

I'll never understand why people are so mad about others having fun.

Because they have fun in the wrong way for the wrong reasons.

[Drusin]

Wonder how all those "no one is clearing MC in a week" people feel now

[Frozenbro]

I'll never understand why people are so mad about others having fun.

Except no one is mad, well maybe the pro-classic guys that got their world shattered after seeing their classic content being steamrolled.

[blankfaced]

Considering they mention a lot that it's CLASSIC world first... 1.12 patch is implied since that's what CLASSIC is.
Which is why people have talked about CLASSIC race instead of WoW Vanilla race. To differentiate them.

I actually agree with the person you quoted. The post comes off condescending, like somehow these people are FAR superior to anyone who raided Vanilla. It couldn't possibly have been due to all the changes to the game from the point MC was released to 1.12. I wouldn't feel all that accomplished doing these "firsts", not enough to want front page posts made about it. This literally has all been done before hundreds of thousands of times only they had far more road blocks back then. The talent overhauls alone made MC trivial.

[Lidoric]

Imagine thinking layering is a bug/exploit when it was implemented by blizz on purpose to smooth the gameplay experience, now can you make your braincells work pls.

There was no layering in Vanilla. So it looks like "Classic" isn't so classical, huh.

[Thelxi]

Just wait for more guilds to hit 60 on enough people. If you are surprised by this you are in for it.

[Khaza-R]

People ITT

“Omg someone more skilled than me did something before me and now there’s no point in me doing it!!11!!1”

[Lidoric]

Imagine thinking layering is a bug/exploit when it was implemented by blizz on purpose to smooth the gameplay experience, now can you make your braincells work pls.

There was no layering in Vanila. So it looks like "Classic" isn't really that classical, huh.

[Kumorii]

I actually agree with the person you quoted. The post comes off condescending, like somehow these people are FAR superior to anyone who raided Vanilla. It couldn't possibly have been due to all the changes to the game from the point MC was released to 1.12. I wouldn't feel all that accomplished doing these "firsts", not enough to want front page posts made about it. This literally has all been done before hundreds of thousands of times only they had far more road blocks back then. The talent overhauls alone made MC trivial.

Sure, maybe it's condescending towards them, but that has little to do with it them not saying "it's patch 1.12" when that's implied when they state it's Classic.

[FelPlague]

And noone here see anything fishy? World 1st lvl 60 was friday night, game is so "easy" you accidentally pull 2 mobs and die... yet some nobodys in leveling greens down Rag and Ony. Yeah right.

1. no that is not true, you acidenrtly pull 2 mobs and die is simply not true at all, especially if you level in groups liek some of these people did.
also yeah epople killed rag and ony in leveling greens back in vanilla too....

[Ungeir]

Whether it's more "casual friendly" is missing the point. That is a complex argument, the truth is much simpler. It's to do with how the game presents its systems and information in a manner that constantly reminds bad players they are bad. In Classic, almost anyone can be a hero with enough time commitment. Even if they know they will likely never get there, it is a very different thing to knowing you'll never get there because you lack the skill, and then having this constantly rubbed in your face.

Yes, it's the lack of distinction between time and skill which has been muddling the waters since the inception of the game. Classic and vanilla heavily favored organization and time commitment. Those are still factors in retail, but there's a skill-based ceiling on how far they can take you.

Now because raiding in retail still requires time commitment and organization, the "hardcore" and "casual" monikers have now been allowed to properly differentiate into the more nuanced reality of: How much do you play? Do you plan your time around a collective effort? Are you making an effort at optimizing you performance? What is your skill level?

Most people have some kind of understanding that these things matter, but it's mixed in with the way 3rd party sites and "rating" addons have changed the community. So there's a strong sense among many old-timers that the game has become both more casual and more elitist at the same time. Which is really a contradiction in terms.

I'm probably stepping on a few toes, but I think part of the appeal Classic has had during the pre-launch and current phase, is that promised a return to simpler days, where if you basically just needed time and bodies to have meaningful end-game progress. I think part of the group to which this appeals will be strongly turned off by the realization that there's no actual end-game progression. The application of "modern" organized raiding methodology just completely demolishes the content.

This is just one of many different groups attracted to Classic, so I won't try to predict the consequence of exposing the unrealistic notion of a mainstream game which punishes casual players but prevents "modern" elitism. I think it will be part of thinning out the player base, but there's plenty of players left who are there for different reasons (nostalgia, curiosity, attraction to non-streamlined game design, etc.)

But it's certainly interesting to observe the rise and fall of the hype surrounding various aspects of the game. I fully expected end-game progress to be essentially meaningless and time-gated by phases to hide this fact. The "bad" players may not be reminded of their failings explicitly by the game design, but they are implicitly reminded by having no carrot to chase, as the endgame has been proven trivial before they even reach it.

I loved Vanilla back in the day, but I have no desire to replay it. I do however, hope it helps demolish the dated notion of "hardcore" vs "casual". Those are remnants of a time when skill didn't really matter, and it was all about commitment and having a strong collective.

MMO studios have a vested interested in keeping this illusion alive, as it helps keep retention high. That's why they are stuck in an impossible attempt to force time commitment through time-gating, obfuscate skill impact through welfare loot, having carrots for the highly organized, but making it possible to progress solo. I think this impossible balancing act is part of why many MMO communities (and WOW in particular) has become pretty toxic in their internal disagreement on casual vs hardcore, solo vs group, time-gating vs perceived forced grinding, etc. I am impressed at how long they've kept so many different player types placated, but Classic has somehow become a catalyst for these conflicts.

To me, Classic is the end of WoW, regardless of success, retention period and eventual stabilized community. It could have been a cool living museum, but it's become yet another source of division and strife. Blizzard should not have allowed the hype to get this much out of control. If they'd delivered quality updates to retail, things might have resolved in a better fashion. But they've essentially abandoned retail, delivering a mockery of a storyline, letting class mechanics rot, failing completely at innovation and pumping out content as slowly as they did a decade or more ago.

[FelPlague]

it was down in 5 days not 6 (EU start 0:00 in Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday <-- kill )

ps. to be more precise 4days and XX hours

no not true at all, it was a world wide release. it was 6 days.
you obviously do not know how to math.


Yes for EU it released tuesday.
but thats because it was tuesday for them, while it was monday for US.

so yes while it was killed on saturday for US, it was killed on sunday for EU
again still 5 bordering on 6 days

[Lidoric]

Imagine thinking layering is a bug/exploit when it was implemented by blizz on purpose to smooth the gameplay experience, now can you make your braincells work pls.

There was no layering in Vanilla. It seems "Classic" isn't really classical, huh.

[Lidoric]

Hello, all? There was no layering in Vanilla.

[Easo]

We knew this would happen. Every single reason for it was given. Why are you complaining? Why are you trying to find excuses (buff slots, class tuning, etc.)? Why?
Let people do what they want, let them enjoy the game even if it is this way.
This will happen for other raids too. Sure, Nax will be harder. But it will happen. BUT. Why is that a problem for you?! Why? How it impacts YOU?

[Saphyron]

-snip-

The values are the original ones it is not undertuned at all.

Private Servers overtuned encounters else they were too easy for the regular private server raider.

It is simply a case where private server players think the game is too easy and want a challenge by making it harder than it actually was.