The Horde and the Alliance have changed places

[Powerogue]

Nobody in their right mind would call the dirt and hovels the horde calls 'houses' or 'towns' a home.

Ew, look at all these filthy tents.

[Skulltaker]

There are people who LOVE to camp and be out doors despite having a apartment/house...just because someone can live a certain way doesn't mean they have to or want to.

Yes. For a change of scenery. And how many people who lived and grew up in a certain standard of civilization do you think would like to permanently go back?

We have thousand year old civilizations that literally dug their homes out in mountains. Others live in dirt/mud houses.

You clearly do not understand what you're trying to argue.

Just because they don't adhere to the same architecture, doesn't make them any less advanced or settled. It's not as if we're comparing New Yorkers to African tribesmen here. They're fictional races in a game, the architectural styles are a fashion choice. In terms of access to tech etc, they have the same means.

There is different style in architecture, and than there are different levels of civilization. And no, we are not comparing New Yorkers to tribesmen. We are, however, comparing rennaisance europeans to tribesmen. And architecture isn't the only measure I applied. One civilization fashions weapons out of stone, the other of metal. One has an agricultural system to speak off, the other consists of hunters and gatherers. And, yes. Your living standards and general welfare of the population does make you more advanced as a civilization. I am more than sure that there are plenty of tribes of indigenous people in the Amazon who are perfectly happy as a society. I'd even wager a guess that they are happier than we are, on average. But it isn't hard to see which people are more advanced.

Now I'd like to stress again that that isn't necessarily a good (or bad) thing. But civilization, as we define it, is not a question of perspective. It has quantifiable measurements.

Now, the existance of magic somewhat skewers it. But to say the Tauren, Orks or Trolls are as advanced as Elves, Humans or Dwarves is just plain wrong. I've yet to see the Horde building any infrastructure to speak off. Bridges. Dams. Actual harbours. Bilgewater is the only thing they have getting close to that. The Zandalari are the first ones to actually have a (rather impressive) proper facility to maintain a fleet.

What about agriculture? Does the Horde have any farms? Hunting and gathering is nice, but it's rather difficult to maintain a proper population that way. Farming marked a considerable advancement in human history.

Everyday use of technology. Horde uses Airships. Alliance has a Subway. Mole Machines. A gigantic Forge with streams of molten iron and lava. Another gigantic Forge in the heart of a Volcano. Gyrocopters and... Hovercraft...?`I'm not sure how to categorize Alliance Airships. The big ones.

I'm not going to get into Draenai. First of all, I always thought they were a bad addition, and second of all, they are mostly magic. I think. Magitech?

Yeah you can refer to my edited comment above for this. I changed it since I felt my original post was long winded and unnecessary, so I apologize for any confusion. Your point still stands for you, but not to what I've seen and what has occurred in lore. So you can feel free to call the Horde primitives and leagues behind the Alliance all you want. They aren't depicted that way outside of verbal insults between factions, but if you want to believe in those that's up to you.

No confusion, don't worry.

We kind of derailed into a H v A thread. So maybe to get the thread back on track - where exactly was the Alliance torn down, and where exactly was the Horde built up? Becasue I just don't see that anywhere. The Alliance might have suffered more destruction. I'd agree to that.

- - - Updated - - -

Ew, look at all these filthy tents.

So you're providing a Night Elven town as an example for how the Horde is advanced. Cool.

But okay, let's play this game. The Horde finally got something that's worth being called a town. Alliance got a Star Destroyer. I'm fine with that trade.

[Kithelle]

snip

The whole point is maybe they don't want to because they don't want to, not because they're some backwater uncivilized cows. Remember they're big on Shamanism and Druidism...in touch with the elements and nature. Both Gnomes and Dwarves are big on tech, but that doesn't mean there are steam tanks and all kinds of mechanical things throughout Stormwind. Other than a airship you don't really see a lot...does that mean Humans are inferior? No...just means they choose to live differently.

Draenei have space ships...does that mean the Alliance has to build their own? No

[Mehrunes]

It literally is. Using steel, and metal in general, for housing is incredibly stupid, since it offers no insulation what to speak off. In the almost desert of Durotan, buildings with metal roofs would cook you alive, and you'd freeze during the night. And again, all Horde cities lack any sanitation to speak off.

Yeah, except for the part where the technology requirement to work with metal to construct the buildings Orcs make surpasses that of putting stone blocks on top of one another (with or without wooden framing) which is the way humans and Dwarves build their buildings. So to claim that Orgrimmar isn't equal to Ironforge or Stormwind in civilizational department just because "ermahgerd no insulation" (even though there's no complaint about that in the plethora of novels and short stories set in post-Cataclysm Orgrimmar) couldn't be any further from the truth.

What I mean with a defendable Stronghold is a capital city that actually can be defended. A city that would withstand a siege for more than a day. A city with the capability to withstand a siege whatsoever. Thunder Bluff - no defenses. Bilgewater Harbour - no defenses. Echo Isles - no defenses.

Thunder Bluff's very location is the defense. The city is virtually unsiegeable from the ground. And we've seen time and time again there is little required to take out a gunship. Bilgewater is largely civilian outpost.

Orgrimmar is the closest to this the Horde has, but the city lacks any means of supply the moment you seal off the three entries. Lordaeron had the same problem. Incredibly poorly planned city.

Opposed to this, you have Ironforge and Stormwind, both massively fortified, with access to an actual airfield and a fortified harbour. Both cities can support each other through the Deeprun Tram. Ironfoge is only accesible through narrow, fortified tunnels.

A city losing the means of supply when you cut off its entries is, you know, kinda the norm. Deeprun Tram is the extreme exception. One that has no real analogy IRL. By your logic there were no strongholds on Earth in the medieval times. Besides, Deeprun Tram is a tunnel and tunnels can be collapsed. Especially when you have Shamanistic magic.

Orgrimmar doesn't have streets, it has metal plates thrown to the ground where people walk the most. That's what you'd do in a military encampment or a trench. Not in your capital city. Especially with plenty of Stone at your disposal.

Orgrimmar has plenty of streets. The entirety of the Drag is two parallel streets. A street doesn't have to be paved to be a street. Paved streets weren't exactly the norm in medieval times. Because there was little point to that.

Orgrimmar was raided, yes. Not razed. The aim was to kill Garrosh, not to destroy the city. Both attacking factions went out of their way to keep the damage as minimal as possible. The only capital so far to be razed is Silvermoon, and that one is still... well... in ruins.

@Rozz was talking about what would happen if Orgrimmar was razed. Not that it was.

So the point stands. The Horde, for the most part, are primitives. Which is fine. Nothing wrong with it. But to say the Horde was built up is simply wrong. Same goes for the Alliance being torn down. The Alliance is still, by far, the most advanced and most refined of the two factions by every measure. Architecture, agriculture, sanitation, infrastructure, general welfare of its citizens, technology. The Horde is behind in all those regards.

Suramar alone surpasses the entirety of the Alliance in anything sans technology from what you listed. And between the Forsaken, Goblins and, to lesser degree, Blood Elves and Orcs, the factions aren't really imbalanced in terms of technology.

There is different style in architecture, and than there are different levels of civilization. And no, we are not comparing New Yorkers to tribesmen. We are, however, comparing rennaisance europeans to tribesmen. And architecture isn't the only measure I applied. One civilization fashions weapons out of stone, the other of metal. One has an agricultural system to speak off, the other consists of hunters and gatherers. And, yes. Your living standards and general welfare of the population does make you more advanced as a civilization. I am more than sure that there are plenty of tribes of indigenous people in the Amazon who are perfectly happy as a society. I'd even wager a guess that they are happier than we are, on average. But it isn't hard to see which people are more advanced.

What about agriculture? Does the Horde have any farms? Hunting and gathering is nice, but it's rather difficult to maintain a proper population that way. Farming marked a considerable advancement in human history.

The only ones that that fashion their weapons out of stone are Trolls and it isn't even an exclusive type of deal. And it's literally been pointed to you already that the Horde has farms.

Now, the existance of magic somewhat skewers it. But to say the Tauren, Orks or Trolls are as advanced as Elves, Humans or Dwarves is just plain wrong. I've yet to see the Horde building any infrastructure to speak off. Bridges. Dams. Actual harbours. Bilgewater is the only thing they have getting close to that. The Zandalari are the first ones to actually have a (rather impressive) proper facility to maintain a fleet.

There aren't any major rivers in Horde territory for them to build dams. If you don't want to count Garrison shipyards (vide you claiming the Horde has no harbors) then until BfA the Alliance had a whooping one. And the Horde does have bridges.

Everyday use of technology. Horde uses Airships. Alliance has a Subway. Mole Machines. A gigantic Forge with streams of molten iron and lava. Another gigantic Forge in the heart of a Volcano. Gyrocopters and... Hovercraft...?`I'm not sure how to categorize Alliance Airships. The big ones.

Horde has its own gunships. And they kinda fail less often. Goblins have their own gyrocopters. And shredders for various kind of work. Goblins also have boxes that can immediately deploy towns and even cities. Both Blood Elves and Nighborne have magitech servants serving various roles. Nightborne have a teleportation pad network.

So you're providing a Night Elven town as an example for how the Horde is advanced. Cool.

Nightborne aren't Night Elves.

But okay, let's play this game. The Horde finally got something that's worth being called a town. Alliance got a Star Destroyer. I'm fine with that trade.

Which is Naaru technology.

[Trassk]

So you're providing a Night Elven town as an example for how the Horde is advanced. Cool.

But okay, let's play this game. The Horde finally got something that's worth being called a town. Alliance got a Star Destroyer. I'm fine with that trade.

1 - The orcish architecture has advanced from leather tents to metal framework and brick and wood, pretty much on par with the stone buildings humans construct.

2 - Tauren tents is pretty much on par with the equally flammable trees night elves live in.

3 - The Vindicaar a star destroyer? lol, hardly, it could probably zap down a house or two or a battlement maybe.

[Feanoro]

We kind of derailed into a H v A thread.

Sadly inevitable.

So maybe to get the thread back on track - where exactly was the Alliance torn down, and where exactly was the Horde built up? Becasue I just don't see that anywhere. The Alliance might have suffered more destruction. I'd agree to that.

See Nathasil's post on the first page of this thread.

So you're providing a Night Elven town as an example for how the Horde is advanced. Cool.

Don't forget, providing a Silvermoon Disney tour rather than Org or TB is what convinced gullible Thalysrra that the Horde wasn't shrieking primitives. Naturally that tactic is copied here.

Alliance got a Star Destroyer.

What, the conspicuously absent Vindicaar?

[Shefu]

Nobody in their right mind would call the dirt and hovels the horde calls 'houses' or 'towns' a home.

So, Tauren: Refugees. Trolls of all colour: Refugees. Most Orcs: Refugees. Forsaken: Refugees. Blood Elves: Dwelling in Ruins. Goblins: Refugees.

Oh, sorry. You might call it 'nomadic'.

Wtf made your dumbass the authority on what to call "home"? Zandalar have a whole continent as their home. Silvermoon is not all in ruins.

You're just ignorant.

Infracted.

[Rozz]

No confusion, don't worry.

We kind of derailed into a H v A thread. So maybe to get the thread back on track - where exactly was the Alliance torn down, and where exactly was the Horde built up? Becasue I just don't see that anywhere. The Alliance might have suffered more destruction. I'd agree to that.

By build up, I was talking about their overall racial developments from the start up to this point. The Horde has had considerable growth that is most noticeable since they started from very little. From magic, technology, and allies, the Horde has gained assets that expanded their reach while the Alliance mostly gained assets that improved what they already had (the VEs are the only real exception).

The Alliance already had an abundance of resources, great technology, decent wealth, and incredibly powerful members. Over the last few expansions this has waxed and waned, with BFA exposing that they're finally feeling a tax from the constant battle. They don't have infinite ore, soldiers, and cash to go around (this has hurt Stormwind the most, since it sends the most troops/aid. The draenei too after Legion). Their powerful members are directly targeted or emotionally battered into inaction; yet the same standard of excellence is always asked of them to maintain their morality, diplomacy, power, etc. I don't think the Alliance is becoming weaker, but I do think they are flipping the dynamic. They are the victims, they are the ones who need to fight against tyranny and assault, they are the ones who crave revenge.

In comparison, the Horde races have experienced rapid growth and relative prosperity with each conflict. As the "have nots", this was easier for them to do with fewer consequences since they gain a lot at everyone else's expense. Most of them have been saved or redeemed and now play the role of benefactor for races. BfA started with greed and preemptive strikes, lead by a woman who only had to only convince them to buy into her paranoia (not that they had those concerns on their own). Despite being supposedly weaker, the Horde is now in the position of antagonist with weaponry and tech that rivals the Alliance. The Horde has grown from a impoverished motley crew, to a devastating force whose ambivalent morality threatens everything around them.

The Alliance has always been strong. The Horde has become stronger (in comparison to itself). The thematic roles of vengeful victim and antagonist have been switched and it's an interesting thing to think about. Horde races used to harbor deep resentment towards the Alliance, now the Alliance holds that towards the Horde.

[Wyrt]

Most of the Horde lives in huts built out of sticks and poop. Hardly worth calling a home.

[Nefarious Tea]

Nobody in their right mind would call the dirt and hovels the horde calls 'houses' or 'towns' a home.

So, Tauren: Refugees. Trolls of all colour: Refugees. Most Orcs: Refugees. Forsaken: Refugees. Blood Elves: Dwelling in Ruins. Goblins: Refugees.

Oh, sorry. You might call it 'nomadic'.

Considering the real-life basis of most of the cultural trappings of the Horde's races in Warcraft, you might want to have a good long look in the mirror and ask yourself "Am I actually a racist?"

[Varodoc]

I wouldn't call it "very secure refuge", or even "secure" at all. Remember that there are areas of Telogrus Rift that are barred from being accessed for "being too dangerous". On top of that, those rocks look really barren, so they cannot grow food, and is being isolated AND open, meaning if the void attacks, there are no defenses.

Two of the islands are confirmed safe, that's where the void elves live. If you're stupid enought to wander off to the risky islands from which nobody comes back, it's on you. The place being barren isn't a problem since they have a portal linked directly to Stormwind for supplies, and near that portal you can see many piles of barrels, no doubt containing food, weapons, and other necessities. This portal would also be very useful if the Void decided to invade somehow, because it would allow a stream of reinforcements from Stormwind as well as evacuation for the civilian ren'dorei.

[Feanoro]

Considering the real-life basis of most of the cultural trappings of the Horde's races in Warcraft, you might want to have a good long look in the mirror and ask yourself "Am I actually a racist?"

Or we could leave real world political BS out of it.

[ausoin]

In the back side of nowhere out in the middle of nothing.


When was this?

edit:

is this sort of like the san'layn that is never referenced for horde?

What? Stormsong is the breadbasket of Kul Tiras and is where the second largest town is, a town the Horde invaded with an army.

During the Alliance war campgain.

[Dagoth Ur]

They should really have Orcs go full Iron Horde so we can drop the mud huts meme.

I mean, even though our Horde possibly doesn't have the access to the same resources Orcs on Draenor had, just look at what the Orcs managed to achieve there, architecture and engineering wise.

[Super Dickmann]

Orcs being more primitive technology-wise than humans was already iffy in WC2 when they were refining oil, but it's laughable by the time of Cataclysm when Stormwind is still an archetypical medieval fantasy castle while the orcs have mass industry and shit like that and the mudhuts have gone the way of the dodo. The orcs have consistently had success with technology, it's just that as a very militant race it's almost exclusively in its ability to refine and apply resources for war. Of the playable races, the only ones ahead of the orcs who also have a way to renew their resources, so discounting the draenei and LF entirely, are dwarves, gnomes and goblins. They're equal to humans at worst and superior to everyone else.

[Dagoth Ur]

Have they not? All new orc architecture is Garrosh-era stone and iron instead of mud huts. Look at Arathi. And the Horde did get the Iron Horde engineering as can be seen by the Mag'har presence in Invasions. It's probably a matter of time until the Mag'har engineers have working Iron Stars back in order. The only issue is finding something to duplicate the metalwork of the magnaron (because those massive iron plates used by Iron Horde Dreadnoughts cannot be conventionally cast).

One thing to add. Orgrimmar is a special case. When you are building on a cave-marked cliff wall, it makes little sense not to make use of the natural caves and the cliff itself.

I was actually thinking more of a something a bit more in the face would be needed, like Blackrock Foundry, Grim rail or Iron Docks, to make the meme go away. That's all if we assume the meme is not just a disingenuous attempt to throw shade at orcs, which is actually what I think's the case here.

But that aside, I agree with you. In reality Orcs have evolved long past "mud huts" all the way back in Cata. I don't see why they shouldn't be considered on par with humans, both technology and architecture capability wise.

[Dagoth Ur]

I'd say their technology is past humans. The Mag'har orcs took the work of Blastfuse and found ways to mass produce it on an industrial scale as well as create new applications for the Iron Star technology (which is essentially a perpetual motion machine). The Horde now has full access to that technology. The humans depend on gnomes for similar technology and we have seen nothing of the same scale among gnomes; it is the Draenei only who have tech that can match the Mag'har but that tech is always sidelined.

That'd actually be a cool way for Blizzard not to ignore Draenei technology. When possible in scenarios and whatever, just match it up against Mag'har's even though it's possibly superior. It'd be more tolerable than outright ignoring it anyway.

Only in the face problem I see is Vindicaar, which imo should've been irreparably destroyed after we've escaped Argus to avoid all the problems it's existence brings. (And maybe get rid of those teleportation pads I guess?)

[Evilfish]

Nobody in their right mind would call the dirt and hovels the horde calls 'houses' or 'towns' a home.

So, Tauren: Refugees. Trolls of all colour: Refugees. Most Orcs: Refugees. Forsaken: Refugees. Blood Elves: Dwelling in Ruins. Goblins: Refugees.

Oh, sorry. You might call it 'nomadic'.

Hey I remember when they took Orgrimmar and smelted it in iron and spikes. Sure enough some of the Alliance thought it was totally unfair that the damned orcs were now living in metal bunkers instead of hovels made out of crap.

But yeah, a lot of people who come from a different culture might consider a hovel to be a house and several hovels to be a town. Perhaps you should stop filtering your opinion through your human perspective and try to look at it from the perspective of a guy who uses that hovel just to get a decent night sleep and not much else.

[Mehrunes]

Most of the Horde lives in huts built out of sticks and poop. Hardly worth calling a home.

Darkspears are hardly "most of the Horde".

Tauren don't just live in tents. They live in wooden housing that is stable enough to have two story buildings and they have enough grasp of engineering to create the elevators that keep TB working. They are perfectly matched to Night Elves architecture.
Forsaken architecture is very advanced more than a match for that of other humans.
Orcs haven't build mud huts in years. Their stone and iron buildings are just as effective as human stonework if somewhat more crude.

We know exactly what trolls can build, the Darkspear simply lack resources. You can see that the echo isles are still under development.
Gnomes still have no city. Goblins have Bilgewater harbor.

Plus the Horde got Suramar, Thunder Totem, Dazar'alor and Iron Horde engineering. The Alliance got the Vindicaar which is MIA, Boralus, Shadowforge City and some tents in the middle of space.

Eh, given how it seems you're arguing the civilizational subtopic the portrayal of Gnomes isn't really fair. Sure, they lost control of most of Gnomereggan, but they are the ones who built it in the first place so they deserve a credit for that. Them having a shit military and terrible allies that won't help them out despite Dwarves living right next to them doesn't diminish their architectural prowess.

If we weren't constantly told how the Alliance is stronger, no one would believe it.

But we aren't constantly told that. There's kinda a reason why the Alliance ever only survived a war with the Horde because of the Horde imploding. And that certainly isn't because Alliance was stronger.

[ausoin]

But we aren't constantly told that. There's kinda a reason why the Alliance ever only survived a war with the Horde because of the Horde imploding. And that certainly isn't because Alliance was stronger.

Alliance was apparently only weeks from victory before Aszhara came into the picture.

In the Second war, Alliance was also betrayed from within just like the Horde was. Alterac gave secret passages into Lordaeron, otherwise, they wouldn't have been able to reach the capital before the other Alliance forces arrived or they wouldnt have reached it at all given how easily Stormguard cut off Ogrim reinforcements.