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  1. #681
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    And I've been in PUGs where it took well over and hour just to get to the second boss. Why does other people experiencing the content at a lower difficulty affect you so much? Why do you gotta gatekeep?
    I never said it affected me. To observe does not mean to be affected. Why do you have to assume?

    It affects the game overall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by damonskye View Post
    It's not a participation trophy. It's just participation. It doesn't affect you if people want to play how they want to play.
    Yeah... ugh, people get loot, don't they? Trophies for... participating!

    Exactly, it doesn't affect me. It affects the game overall. Some positive effects, some negative. Mostly negative, in my opinion.

  2. #682
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Goat View Post
    I never said it affected me. To observe does not mean to be affected. Why do you have to assume?

    It affects the game overall.
    You're right, LFR does affect the game overall... it keeps a lot of people playing the game. Without LFR and other casual fun things in the game, so many of us paying customers wouldn't be around anymore.

    And THAT would kill it. Not LFR.

  3. #683
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Goat View Post
    I never said it affected me. To observe does not mean to be affected. Why do you have to assume?

    It affects the game overall.
    It's been around since Cataclysm. It's introduced a lot of people to raiding and have caused guilds to form their own raid teams for more serious content as a result. So you're right. It does affect the game. It's made the raid scene flourish!

  4. #684
    Mythic raiding is Major League Baseball. Heroic is triple-A (minor league) baseball. Normal is college baseball, or high school, or whatever.

    LFR is people picking up a game in a park on a sunny day. Just having fun.

    Does people picking up a game in a park on a sunny day prevent ANY of the other types of baseball? Of course not. It makes some people very interested in them. Other people, it just means a fun day playing baseball in a park. They're not looking for a "participation trophy" (that was the stupidest thing I've ever heard), it just means they're participating in something they enjoy. No down side, no "I'm making baseball terrible for everyone who plays professionally," no anything but fun.

    Seriously, guys, all you LFR griefers really need to find something else in the game to complain about. Really. You'll live longer.

  5. #685
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Except that's an absolutely terrible idea because the majority of the player base in LFG are looking for easy runs so they expect ridiculous item levels. In current WoW if LFG was the only option, the vast majority of the player base would never get to see content.
    thats not exactly true and people can make their own groups as well. i ran a bunch of stuff with crap IO score and no issues.

  6. #686
    Quote Originally Posted by gd8 View Post
    From a progression standpoint, there's absolutely no reason whatsoever to step foot into LFR - you can get as good or better gear just by doing dailies. The only reason anybody does LFR is likely because it's a way for them to see content they otherwise wouldn't see likely because they're too busy to be in an active raiding guild or don't care to invest that much time into the game. So what exactly is the problem with allowing "casuals" to see this content when they're not even being rewarded for it? Why is LFR such a major talking point for classic fanboys and the like? How does it affect your gameplay at all? I personally don't use LFR and forget it exists most of the time so I struggle to understand why so many people have such an issue with it when the only thing people get from it is trash gear (hardly the "free epixx" people frame it as).
    Why are people anti-LFR? Because they believe you need to play the game a certain way (read: the way they do) and LFR is not part of that way.

    There are no justifiable reasons to give two shits about LFR, but just like people can't stop hating on people that enjoy classic or people that enjoy retail, folks think their definition of fun is the only correct definition.

  7. #687
    Quote Originally Posted by tyrlaan View Post
    Why are people anti-LFR? Because they believe you need to play the game a certain way (read: the way they do) and LFR is not part of that way.

    There are no justifiable reasons to give two shits about LFR, but just like people can't stop hating on people that enjoy classic or people that enjoy retail, folks think their definition of fun is the only correct definition.
    It is what lfr changed forever with its conception people remember. LFR is terrible but it's true problem is wlthe knock on effect it has had since release and what it paved the way for.

    It is why we sit here today. A 15 year old version of the game crushing what is current. Accessibility is poison it kills every game it touches.

  8. #688
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodykiller86 View Post
    thats not exactly true and people can make their own groups as well. i ran a bunch of stuff with crap IO score and no issues.
    You've been lucky then. The majority of groups I see expect item levels that were higher than what dropped in the raid they were pugging for.

  9. #689
    Quote Originally Posted by barrsftw View Post
    I was explaining why LFR devalues higher raids. You said it didn't.

    Also, this is a player problem, but then you defend people who don't have time to raid? How is that not also a player problem? It sounds like if it's against your point of view it's a player problem, and if it supports your opinion it's a game problem. Either way it's irrelevant whether it's a game problem or player problem. A problem is a problem. Personally, I don't think LFR is that big of a deal, although I would prefer it gone. But I'm not ignorant to why people think it's bad for the game.

    Like the previous poster mentioned, and thousands of others: It devalues higher raid content, and disincentivizes people from doing Normal/Heroic.
    Mythic+ devalues the whole game and desensitizes people from running all 4 raid difficulties.

  10. #690
    Quote Originally Posted by darklogrus View Post
    Mythic+ devalues the whole game and desensitizes people from running all 4 raid difficulties.
    The raid difficulties was an annoyance way before m+ was introduced. The idea of clearing a raid multiple times on different difficulties as a path of progression was always a bit of a bummer. At least with m+ as an option you dont have to go through LFR and normal as a mythic raider and even HC is something you can switch out after a while.

  11. #691
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    It's been around since Cataclysm. It's introduced a lot of people to raiding and have caused guilds to form their own raid teams for more serious content as a result. So you're right. It does affect the game. It's made the raid scene flourish!
    I didn't say it was a negative impact 100%. You should relax. Twice now you've assumed something about the way I feel towards the game, and it's making you look a bit defensive.

    Don't pretend LFR hasn't taken people away from this game also, if you're trying to be a voice of reason. WoW used to be a game that encouraged players to get better, to perform better to overcome greater challenges. Not everyone agrees with this design intent, but regardless, a lot of people do. Some people see a curve in the game's difficulty that started around the time LFR was introduced. The game has become easier, and to some, this is not a good thing. You can say what you want, but the game was at its peak of popularity before all the LFR and participation trophy content started appearing. It has been in steady decline ever since. Coincidence? I don't think so.

    I don't intend to sway your mind. That's like trying to convince a cat person that dogs are better. You want more accessibility, I want people to become better so I don't have to group with terrible players. You want a quick 30 min raid option, I don't think that's indicative of a real raid experience. You think it's a solution, I think it's a participation trophy. I could do this all day long.

    We are divided, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Saying that LFR has made raiding flourish is a bit too tongue-in-cheek for me, but believe whatever you want. LFR, to me, started a precedent where the game and its designers felt the game, specifically raiding, needed to appeal to everyone, and I ultimately disagree. The game and raiding don't require ultimate accessibility to succeed, and the game population has been in steady decline since this design intent was embraced.

    When you try to please everyone, you'll please no one. And I see the Retail game suffering through that right now. The induction of "easier" features has caused the game to decline, despite your assertion that raiding is flourishing.
    Last edited by Black Goat; 2019-09-04 at 08:17 PM.

  12. #692
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Goat View Post
    But don't pretend LFR hasn't take people away from this game if you're trying to be a voice of reason.
    It hasn't. You know what has, though? Time. The game is 15 years old. The people that left were people who no longer found any value in it. Not because there is an LFR difficulty of raiding.

    The people you want to raid with are out there, you just need to look harder. The people who are playing LFR are not, AND HAVE NEVER BEEN NOR WILL EVER BE, the people you are seeking. THAT is the real hard truth about all of this.

  13. #693
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    Quote Originally Posted by damonskye View Post
    You're right, LFR does affect the game overall... it keeps a lot of people playing the game. Without LFR and other casual fun things in the game, so many of us paying customers wouldn't be around anymore.

    And THAT would kill it. Not LFR.
    Just like how the end of TBC and Wotlk was the peak of the subs up to early Cata of WoW history and that was without LFR?

    So no if LFR didn't exist raiding will not die at all.

    For me personally (again my opinion here) I dislike LFR and the idea of multiple difficulties for raids (Ulduar hardmode and OS 3 drakes were for me personally the best hardmode raid design).

  14. #694
    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    Just like how the end of TBC and Wotlk was the peak of the subs up to early Cata of WoW history and that was without LFR?

    So no if LFR didn't exist raiding will not die at all.

    For me personally (again my opinion here) I dislike LFR and the idea of multiple difficulties for raids (Ulduar hardmode and OS 3 drakes were for me personally the best hardmode raid design).
    Wrath of the Lich King came out 11 years ago. In a different time. MMO gaming is not what it used to be.

    You cannot compare today to 11 years ago.

  15. #695
    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    Its supposed to be a MMO not an antisocial single player bubble. If you don't want to socialize you should play single player games. Nothing is forced upon you there.
    MMORPG's give the player a choice of style of play, one of those choices can be a socially single-player style. Blizzard even observed and coined the term "Socially single-player" as a popular way to play WoW, of which MMORPGs excel at.

    What you're describing is CoD's multiplayer lobby, not an MMORPG. If you don't want to have a non-socialize option, you should play multiplayer exclusive games instead of MMORPGs. Nothing is forced upon you there.

  16. #696
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    Quote Originally Posted by damonskye View Post
    Wrath of the Lich King came out 11 years ago. In a different time. MMO gaming is not what it used to be.

    You cannot compare today to 11 years ago.
    Yet you jumped to conclusion that if LFR doesn't exist today then raiding in general will die out? I say you are wrong nothing can be worse than old vanilla Naxx where only like 1% of the WoW playerbase history saw it or even clear it to begin with and yet raiding didn't die even on that worse case scenario. So no raiding will not die even if LFR didn't exist.

  17. #697
    Quote Originally Posted by gd8 View Post
    I don't know what game you're playing but I doubt anybody is trying to "show off" LFR gear that notion is honestly laughable

    every raid in classic is easier than LFR currently is on retail
    LOL complete lie.
    LFR casuals would wipe on Ony non stop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by damonskye View Post
    Wrath of the Lich King came out 11 years ago. In a different time. MMO gaming is not what it used to be.

    You cannot compare today to 11 years ago.
    I would go out on a limb and say the only mmo gaming out is classic.
    Retail isn't an mmo, the things literally a casino for users to spend time on.

  18. #698
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    You've been lucky then. The majority of groups I see expect item levels that were higher than what dropped in the raid they were pugging for.
    then make your own group. thats always going to happen to some extent. but if everyone would be forced to use it instead of LFD/LFR you'll see a crap ton of groups there

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    Quote Originally Posted by toffmcsoft View Post
    LOL complete lie.
    LFR casuals would wipe on Ony non stop.

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    I would go out on a limb and say the only mmo gaming out is classic.
    Retail isn't an mmo, the things literally a casino for users to spend time on.
    ugh i hate this casino crap. Every point in wow has been RNG. Worse in classic as you had less drops for a raid size of 40

  19. #699
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    Quote Originally Posted by toffmcsoft View Post
    LOL complete lie.
    LFR casuals would wipe on Ony non stop.

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    I would go out on a limb and say the only mmo gaming out is classic.
    Retail isn't an mmo, the things literally a casino for users to spend time on.
    It is still MMORPG but I agree that they removed so many of the fun RPG elements including a lot of fun spells and some clever unique mechanics.

    Like I really really enjoy how int state work back in the day for classic like how int state is not useless for melee classes like Warrior and Rogue and instead it increases your weapon skills points. These tiny things maybe some folks don't care much about them but for me personally these small things really define what an RPG really.

  20. #700
    Quote Originally Posted by damonskye View Post
    It hasn't. You know what has, though? Time. The game is 15 years old. The people that left were people who no longer found any value in it. Not because there is an LFR difficulty of raiding.

    The people you want to raid with are out there, you just need to look harder. The people who are playing LFR are not, AND HAVE NEVER BEEN NOR WILL EVER BE, the people you are seeking. THAT is the real hard truth about all of this.
    So you can factually claim that the dumbing-down of the game has not caused people to quit the game?

    Honestly, you can't and the fact that you pretend to know this as absolute is concerning. If you care to keep making statements like that, we can just stop here. I don't care to waste my time with that kind of mental gymnastics.

    The... real hard truth? What are you on about? I never talked about seeking players being a problem. Never claimed anything about lies or truth. If you want to go off on a tangent or blog, be my guest. It's about time I digress from this anyway, it's not going anywhere.
    Last edited by Black Goat; 2019-09-04 at 08:22 PM.

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