Why exactly are people so anti-LFR?

[Raelbo]

I was explaining why LFR devalues higher raids. You said it didn't.

And based on our little exchange, my point stands.

You yourself said LFR devalues higher raids "Because a lot of people don't want to do the same thing over again with increased numbers". That argument is entirely defeated by the fact that there is no requirement for anyone who does participate in higher raids to do LFR at all, and if they choose to do so, it is entirely on them, not the existence of LFR.

Also, this is a player problem, but then you defend people who don't have time to raid? How is that not also a player problem? It sounds like if it's against your point of view it's a player problem, and if it supports your opinion it's a game problem.

You're making a massively false equivalence here. We're talking about 2 very different "problems". How on earth can you possibly equate someone wanting, for whatever reason, to play an easier mode of the game, with someone who is complaining that their volutuntary participation in a mode that there is zero need for them to participate in is ruining their experience of the modes they want to participate in?

The equivalent argument would be an LFR player complaining that the existence of Mythic devalues the LFR experience because the superior mythic rewards make LFR raiders feel inferior....

Either way it's irrelevant whether it's a game problem or player problem. A problem is a problem.

Of course it's relevant! It directly speaks to whether the complaints against LFR are warranted. If people want to complain about LFR and their reason is because of a problem that isn't actually caused by LFR, then their argument against LFR is misplaced.

But I'm not ignorant to why people think it's bad for the game.

Oh, we totally get why some people think it's bad for the game. But it just so happens that that thinking is somewhat addled. Hence the position made that no one can

Like the previous poster mentioned, and thousands of others: It devalues higher raid content, and disincentivizes people from doing Normal/Heroic.

Then give a proper reason that you can adequately defend. Honestly, if there was any factual basis for this assertion being made by "thousands" then surely someone could put together an argument that isn't shredded so easily. The fact that thousands of people claim "it devalues higher raid content" but between cannot put together a cogent explanation of why, actually speaks to the fact that the assertion is bullshit plain and simple.

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And whose fault is it? the lfr player presses the same 4 buttons as me
and dont tell me now that wow need any skill or reflexes like a MMOBA or FPS its just pressing 4 buttons and "dont stand in fire"
ppl are just lazy thats all

Oh stop being disingenuous!

Being competent at WoW requires time and commitment, of which you clearly have a lot more of than the average player.

Oh, and calling people lazy for essentially not spending enough time on a computer game is a joke, right? Hey man, I'd love to spend as much time playing WoW as someone like you. Instead I have to worry about things like work, my marriage, raising my kids, taking care of my home etc etc. The only reason I don't spend more time playing WoW is precisely because I am the opposite of lazy. But hey, I guess there are some benefits of not being a lazy computer game addicted slob: my mind still functions....

[nekobaka]

Their point of success for LFR is that 60%-75% of players see the raid at least once. That's up from around 20%-30%. LFR has done exactly what it was supposed to do.

Is that what the current numbers are? Last time I saw Chaud post numbers was WoD with LFR was sitting at high 50% with normal at high 30%. Last time I saw LFR was in the 70% range was first tier of MoP where it dropped of by about 20% in the last tier of MoP.

I would be happy to see if Chaud posted new charts.

Since then Ion came out with his LFR is more for tourist mode for seeing content a few times and WoW as a whole has shifted to giving the majority non-organized raiders more forms of progression outside of raiding. Sure even having players run LFR a few times would increase MAU. On the other hand if the majority really wanted to raid as their end game then I dont see why the devs would of made such changes away from the raid or die behavior they had previously tried to promote.


Having content and story be accessible is great and MAU doesnt have to be the sole justification for such and personally shouldn't.

[Malikath]

because LFRheroes are entitled shits unwilling to do any effort to acheive even basic competency.
what's worse is how their uselessness in game doesn't reflect in their participation on forums, giving them an over-inflated assumption of themselves thinking they're the average WoW player.

this unfortunately led to more changes made across the board to appeal to this vocal minority of ultra-casuals who spend more time on the forums then in the game itself.
like when after LFG was popularized and made "accessible to more players" in Wrath's penultimate content patch changes were made to ICC to lessen the challenge of the encounters, the same happened to cata's heroic dungeons which for 1 whole week were balanced to BC's heroic dungeon paradigm of required CC and planned engagement.

so yes LFR has indeed ruined other sections of the gameplay appealing to what is ultimately proved by the lessening subscriptions as nothing more then an overly vocal ignorant community of non-participatory players who want content they don't feel like actually doing themselves.

[Willhouse]

From a progression standpoint, there's absolutely no reason whatsoever to step foot into LFR - you can get as good or better gear just by doing dailies. The only reason anybody does LFR is likely because it's a way for them to see content they otherwise wouldn't see likely because they're too busy to be in an active raiding guild or don't care to invest that much time into the game. So what exactly is the problem with allowing "casuals" to see this content when they're not even being rewarded for it? Why is LFR such a major talking point for classic fanboys and the like? How does it affect your gameplay at all? I personally don't use LFR and forget it exists most of the time so I struggle to understand why so many people have such an issue with it when the only thing people get from it is trash gear (hardly the "free epixx" people frame it as).

Because elitist idiots love to see casual ppl suffer.

[Raelbo]

because LFRheroes are entitled shits unwilling to do any effort to acheive even basic competency.

Boy, you clearly are a wonderful person. Also how is this even relevant to anything, even if one assumes (even though unlikely) that it's true?

WoW is computer game. It's function is to provide entertainment and fun to people. There is zero requirement, nor should there be, that the game force players to achieve the levels of competency required to defeat the hardest modes currently in the game.

what's worse is how their uselessness in game doesn't reflect in their participation on forums, giving them an over-inflated assumption of themselves thinking they're the average WoW player.

The requirement for participation in a forum really shouldn't have anything to do with one's ability as a WoW player. Far more important is one's ability to think critically, engage other participants meaningfully and politely, construct logical arguments that don't rely entirely on ad hominem. So yeah, given your conduct, I'd say it's rich for you to criticise anyone for participating on the forums because frankly, your post is about as piss-poor as they come.

Also, even your ad hominem fails. I am not, as you put it, a "LFRhero". (I'm also not a delusional twat who thinks that average = cutting edge).

[Xalvia]

Having to enter a raid requires a high level of commitment that many people can't/don't want/don't care to adhere to it. You don't feel like playing WoW tonight? Too bad, you gotta raid. You'd like to spent time with your work partners having some drinks and snacks in a pub? Go home now to raid! After nearly an hour of wiping in the same boss you feel tired and burnt out and would want to call it a day? Nah-ah , there's still 70 minutes of raiding and you are gonna stay until the very end!

Guess what would those people do if there were no LFR? Quit the game because they are bored, since there's no endgame at all. At least with LFR they can see the storie's conclusion.

did you even read a word i wrote?

[Malikath]

did you even read a word i wrote?

they can't even read the in-game encounter descriptions to understand what they're dying to.
8-ball says: Nope.

like they still don't get that they're literally arguing with lies against factual proof of LFG/LFR's negative effects over the years.
the interesting question is "why?", because they're afraid that with the LFG addon being barred from use in classic that the developers might actually move to remove LFR from the next expansion now that the resurgence has shown a massive community outside of the current LFRheroes that puts them in sharp contrast to the rest of the community that no longer plays the game after it was dumbed-down to cater to their entitled whining.

in short, they finally realize they're massively outnumbered and hated for what their demands have done to the game those millions played.

[Milfshaked]

Personally I disagree with you entirely. Whatever Blizzard tells its players it's clear that they like making raids. It's clear that raid content at all levels is what distinguishes WoW from other MMO's. They needed to keep raiding content viable with respect to investment against return. That's why there's an LFR. They have even as much as said so a few times. Their point of success for LFR is that 60%-75% of players see the raid at least once. That's up from around 20%-30%. LFR has done exactly what it was supposed to do.

You assume that a higher number of players seeing the content in a short time frame is a good metric. I think that is what most people disagree with. WoW uses a subscription model which should encourage people to play for years. The mindset you and others share seems more similar to a mobile game with short life span or a game with single playthrough. Such a mindset is however detrimental when it comes to a game like WoW. To me, LFR fits into as a part of a larger problem with the game that has been going on since Wrath. A bunch of changes has been made that has killed the social aspects of an MMO game and the feeling of the world being a living place. A big example of what else fits into this is of course flying.

Games like WoW that uses a long term subscription model needs to be all about the journey, not about the goal. It is about having fun and spending time on the way. Most people get super bored when they have done all content and the only thing to do is to wait for the next patch. That is one way to lose subscribers.[/QUOTE]

You can continue to strawman the idea that it was all about keeping players subscribed but even a cursory examination shows that to be untrue. Requirements to get in are minimal and the design is for success. It's the ultimate in disposable end game for casual players and the developers are quite aware of this.

Isnt the reality of WoWs subscribers numbers something you care about at all? It feels kinda like seeing Bagdad-Bob on TV again. The current model of game design quite obviously has very major flaws compared to old ones. And before you strawman that, that does not mean that everything in old ones are good and that everything in the new ones are bad. It also doesnt mean that LFR is solely responsible for the loss of subscribers, noone thinks that. I would however argue that LFR has contributed to a larger problem which has caused subscribers to fall.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

Oh stop being disingenuous!

Being competent at WoW requires time and commitment, of which you clearly have a lot more of than the average player.

Oh, and calling people lazy for essentially not spending enough time on a computer game is a joke, right? Hey man, I'd love to spend as much time playing WoW as someone like you. Instead I have to worry about things like work, my marriage, raising my kids, taking care of my home etc etc. The only reason I don't spend more time playing WoW is precisely because I am the opposite of lazy. But hey, I guess there are some benefits of not being a lazy computer game addicted slob: my mind still functions....

hmmm but that is strange, I work 10 hours a day except Friday, and I have a girlfriend and i have my own apartment

I Raid 8 hours a week, wednesday and sunday, somehow I have mythic azshara down since last week... spending about 15 hours a week in game thats quite casual if you ask me

the problem is the bad player who does not want to improve always playing the casual card since fucking BC if not even classic, and call people addicted or neckbeards even though they spend the same time in the game if not less.
That's why your argument does not surprise me at all that Ive hearing it for 13 years.

[Vorkreist]

Yeah, because having an OPTIONAL raid difficult that serious raiders ignore actually reduces your enjoyment of the game, right?

Yes it does because now my raid difficulty means less when every lazy bad can do the same thing for no effort. It devalues raiding on the entire board.
Just because you are bad and lazy doesn't mean the game should be designed around your sorry ass. Even the devs themselves admitted LFR was a mistake.

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MMORPG's give the player a choice of style of play, one of those choices can be a socially single-player style. Blizzard even observed and coined the term "Socially single-player" as a popular way to play WoW, of which MMORPGs excel at.

What you're describing is CoD's multiplayer lobby, not an MMORPG. If you don't want to have a non-socialize option, you should play multiplayer exclusive games instead of MMORPGs. Nothing is forced upon you there.

MMORPG give players a choice of style to play meaning you either do the raids properly or go fuck yourself. They don't dumb down and make extra copies of the top content in this way. Show me other mmos with lfr.
You should have the option of playing your anti social stupid bubble but not at the expense of the entire game.
Bfa is essentially CoD multiplayer lobby already. Its not a mmorpg anymore since everything is closed in anti social bubbles.
Also pretending the massive evidence against it. The fucking decline in players. The massive number or players prefering something without lfr in it and the devs saying yes it was a mistake.
LFR should not exist and its bad for the game.

[MoanaLisa]

You assume that a higher number of players seeing the content in a short time frame is a good metric. I think that is what most people disagree with.

If you read carefully that's not what I said at all. My assumption is that Blizzard wanted and continues to want as many players as possible to see raids.

I don't consider that to be any kind of customer metric. My proposition that Blizzard wants more people to see raids is based on their belief that raids are their best content (in fact I think that's true) and will do whatever it takes to keep them well-trafficked. Hazzikostas happily stated a few years ago that because more people were experiencing raid encounters due to LFR's popularity they could make bigger raids. All along I have thought this is the main driver behind the creation and sustaining of LFR.

Re: The reality of WoW's subscriber numbers -- I don't know what they are. Neither do you. So I'm not going to make unwarranted assumptions about the financial viability of World of Warcraft. The game has some very substantial issues at present. LFR isn't really one of them.

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Is that what the current numbers are? Last time I saw Chaud post numbers was WoD with LFR was sitting at high 50% with normal at high 30%. Last time I saw LFR was in the 70% range was first tier of MoP where it dropped of by about 20% in the last tier of MoP.

I would be happy to see if Chaud posted new charts.

Since then Ion came out with his LFR is more for tourist mode for seeing content a few times and WoW as a whole has shifted to giving the majority non-organized raiders more forms of progression outside of raiding. Sure even having players run LFR a few times would increase MAU. On the other hand if the majority really wanted to raid as their end game then I dont see why the devs would of made such changes away from the raid or die behavior they had previously tried to promote.


Having content and story be accessible is great and MAU doesnt have to be the sole justification for such and personally shouldn't.

70% might be a bit high. First bosses do much better than later bosses. First expansion raids tend to do better than later raids. It's easy enough to run LFR a few times in a calendar month. MAU only counts you once during that time. If there is a component to LFR that is pointed at getting another month out of subscribers it's the very long time it takes them to roll out wings. The upside to that is maybe they do get an extra month out of some players. The downside is that release takes so long that the raid loses coherence as any kind of story. Plus people can return prior to the next patch and pick up anything they missed. For me personally, a lengthy rollout makes it very easy not to care about it.

[apples]

what other people do effects me and makes me weaker or stronger.

if other people are able to get the same items i have (even though they arent the same) then my items are weaker because theyre less rare

if other people kill the same bosses as i have (even though they arent the same) then my achievements are less important

my self worth is entirely based on how i view other people and so any threat, no matter how small, is an attack on me

because i love games, any attack on me is also an attack on games and the games i like

this is why lfr is not only something i dont like, it is something that is destroying the world of warcraft

[Azerate]

My question was if LFR is a good system to keep players subscribed.
How can LFR keep casuals subscribed if:
-Its one of the worst places ingame to get gear
-You do it in one day of the week and call it a day for the rest of the week
-You complete it in one gaming session (impossible to fail)

The only saving grace of LFR is transmog farm, for people who are into that.

Blizzard is struggling in finding a way to keep people subbed. Mainly casuals because they are the majority, as always AND my point is that LFR is/was never the answer.

1. It's as good a place to get gear as any other raid difficulty. No idea why it would be one of the worst places. Or are you one of the people who believe in the "mythic+ is an infinite source of gear" myth? Raids are actually one of the better sources to get gear.

2. You do it in one day if you want to spend 2-3 hours straight doing it (including queue times). Or you may do it over 2 days, or spread it even more around the week. Just like any other raid difficulty - which you can also finish in about 2-3 hours btw, once on farm.

3. LFR is divided into separate queable wings precisely because the whole raid is not completable in a single session for everyone.

The saving grace of LFR is that people who have no skill, time, or willingness to go deeper, can actually experience some of that content. When I came back after a long break to Legion, I was LFR-only for about half a year, which in the end motivated me to get into raiding finally. If you dangle something in front of someone's face all the time, some of the players will get interested and go further. Even if 1 in 50 people who only do LFR try a normal/heroic raid because of that, it's 1 person more than NO ONE, which is the alternative of no LFR being there. It's still fine if they don't too, they still have something to play without trying to get more hardcore.

LFR by itself is not the answer, but LFR combined with rich world content, which we have since Legion, and lots of casual activities ARE the answer.

Even the devs themselves admitted LFR was a mistake.

That never happened.

[KaPe]

That never happened.

Ghostcrawler did, to an extent. However, this was long after he quit, so there was the added caveat of "maybe it's better now" (and the first iteration of LFR had issues that resulted in multiple guild wide bans, so it's an entirely different thing from what this thread is about) plus it's only one person. At no point did "devs" - meaning both "current devs" and "more than one" - said LFR was a mistake and should be removed.

[Mardux]

Yes it does because now my raid difficulty means less when every lazy bad can do the same thing for no effort. It devalues raiding on the entire board.
Just because you are bad and lazy doesn't mean the game should be designed around your sorry ass. Even the devs themselves admitted LFR was a mistake.

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MMORPG give players a choice of style to play meaning you either do the raids properly or go fuck yourself. They don't dumb down and make extra copies of the top content in this way. Show me other mmos with lfr.
You should have the option of playing your anti social stupid bubble but not at the expense of the entire game.
Bfa is essentially CoD multiplayer lobby already. Its not a mmorpg anymore since everything is closed in anti social bubbles.
Also pretending the massive evidence against it. The fucking decline in players. The massive number or players prefering something without lfr in it and the devs saying yes it was a mistake.
LFR should not exist and its bad for the game.

"Your" raid difficulty's value doesn't change because lfr exists unless you want it it to change or if lfr is your preferred difficulty.

My preferred difficulty is mythic. Lfr means nothing to me because lfr has exactly zero effect on mythic difficulty or achievements.

You're just trying to play gatekeeper and attempting to use the lfr excuse to do so.

[Otimus]

Ofcourse there are people who sub to check a new patch (if they bought BfA already).
And they do LFR once to see the scenary and call it a day? i dont know...

My question was if LFR is a good system to keep players subscribed.
How can LFR keep casuals subscribed if:
-Its one of the worst places ingame to get gear
-You do it in one day of the week and call it a day for the rest of the week
-You complete it in one gaming session (impossible to fail)

The only saving grace of LFR is transmog farm, for people who are into that.

Blizzard is struggling in finding a way to keep people subbed. Mainly casuals because they are the majority, as always AND my point is that LFR is/was never the answer.

The more blunt way to say this is that raiding isn't the answer. Blizzard really wants it to be the answer because they really, really, really, really like raiding and raiders, more than anything or anyone else in the game, and have gone to great lengths to make it "the" thing for the game, despite clear evidence that not all that many care about it. They're either unwilling or unable to make content that can last and be engaging for a really casual audience.

It sure would be nice if WoW were consistent!

[Raelbo]

hmmm but that is strange, I work 10 hours a day except Friday, and I have a girlfriend and i have my own apartment

I Raid 8 hours a week, wednesday and sunday, somehow I have mythic azshara down since last week... spending about 15 hours a week in game thats quite casual if you ask me

So what? Aside from the fact that the rest of us have no idea how truthful you're being, it doesn't actually matter. You have your life choices and that's your business. Not anyone else's. By the same token you need to learn to respect other people's life choices.

the problem is the bad player who does not want to improve always playing the casual card since fucking BC if not even classic, and call people addicted or neckbeards even though they spend the same time in the game if not less.

Dude, no one called you an addicted neckbeard. You came here acting like a douche, as if you're some kind of world police force whose job it is to tell everyone else how they should be playing the game. Your entire argument is little more than ad hominem, which is laughable because you don't even know me or how I play. In short, everything you have said thus far is pretty much worthless aside from serving to depict yourself in a very poor light.

Let me be clear: If people enjoying the LFR experience triggers you so much, that isn't LFR's fault, it's yours. And I am not even saying this because I have any kind of vested interest in LFR. I don't.

That's why your argument does not surprise me at all that Ive hearing it for 13 years.

Don't make me laugh. It's crystal clear that your problem is that you don't listen. You don't collaborate. You preach. And given how clearly angry/miserable you come across, it seems that the person you're harming most with that attitude is yourself.

[justandulas]

the worst thing it did was remove accountability from player actions. In the good ol' days, if a player was a troll, ninja, asshole... they'd get server blacklisted and would find themselves actually UNABLE to progress further. No transfer, no rename.. the only option was to behave like a functional human being, or just start all over.

Now, you are just an interchangeable number and they can just click the button and find another group. They also went personal loot to try and minimize this, but it just makes loot feel like garbage. One size fits all WoW is not for me.

i'd prefer my wow to actually feel like a WORLD i inhabit when i play; not for it to feel so blatantly like a game with gamey systems meant for easy catch up, QoL, etc.

LFR isn't the sole reason for the decline of retail wow, but it definitely had a bigger impact on the social structure than people realize. LFG, LFR... did insurmountable damage to the game, all for the sake of "accessibility". Not necessarily the systems themselves because on paper, people having a faster way to "LF1M... dungeon x" isn't a bad thing, but the damage it did to the social structures of the game can't be fixed. It has led to this world of homogenized classes, gear, multiple raid difficulties, and quite frankly... wow feels like diablo 3 the MMO ARPG than a proper WOW MMORPG like the good old days. They’d have to tear it down to the foundations and rebuild it in classic or tbc image to get me back and that’s not fair to those who still enjoy retail, so I’m happy to stay on classic.

[Big Thanks]

The massive number or players prefering something without lfr in it and the devs saying yes it was a mistake.
LFR should not exist and its bad for the game.

Removing LFR at this very moment in modern wow solves nothing though.
You think "raid prestige" will come back? Not in a million years...there is mythic+, there is emmisaries, there is Heroic Warfronts, Mythic cache, transmog, pvp gear, etc
At this point removing LFR is not the answer, it solves nothing

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1. It's as good a place to get gear as any other raid difficulty. No idea why it would be one of the worst places. Or are you one of the people who believe in the "mythic+ is an infinite source of gear" myth? Raids are actually one of the better sources to get gear.

If you want gear (item level), LFR is the last place to look for it.
Unless you enjoy taking longer to get gear.
Mythic zero, Mythic +, PvP, Cache, Warfront all give better gear and are piss easy/take less time.

sorry not replying to your entire post...didnt sleep this night.

[Raisei]

I wouldn`t say I hate LFR, I still do it from time to time when gearing a fresh 120. I think what mostly annoys me in some group is that many players treat it as a free ride. That you can basically AFK through it and just let a few people carry you, which has been true for some time but I feel with EP it kinda stopped. Sure LFR is a LOT easier then Normal already, but Blizz did no longer prune the mechanics in such a way that it is just blindly dpssing. That will cause wipes on many bosses, which is actually cool, because LFR is not that much of a joke anymore.

The problem is that players do not react positively to that change or rather, they do not react at all. People in LFR do not come there to do mechanics and consequently they never bother to look what just wiped them, how that mechanic works and how to counter it. Some might not even know what a mechanic is beyond "pointy end goes that way".

My favourite was on Azshara. The Tanks died 5 times to the Tormented Naga Lovers at the start, I linked the ability from the Guide, I explained it, step by step. I could just as well have been talking to a wall, they just could not comprehend it. This creates frustation, so after another few wipes and waiting on several Tanks because obviously they always left after one try, I just left. The time investment was just not worth it.

I can accept if people are new to the game and class and such. But I cannot accept lazyness. There is literally dozens of resources you can use to find out what is going on, including an IN-GAME Guide that tells you what to do. If you want to tank for a group of 25 people then you better know what you are doing at least i theory. Wasting the time 24 others because you could not be bothered to check things for 5 minutes is just disrespectful.

So I can`t say I am anti-LFR, I am anti-LFR-players. For the most part.