Elements of classic paladin class to be implemented in retail

[Zmagoslav]

I believe the appeal is that it is a unique system in the game. It isn't perfect and could be improved upon. But at least it's not just another combo building spec as it exists today.

How exactly is a 30 second self-buff that literally only adds a "chance on hit"-effect unique?

[crusadernero]

Whatever they do with ret in the future, dont make it like ret in classic. I LOVE that class (main class since early bc), but for the love of Uther dont make ret as in classic.

Ret is much much fluid in retail than in classic, while in classic its zzzzzzzzzz.

I'd like if they went deeper into the lore and class fantasy of every class in the game. Quests to obtain spells specific for your class, armor for your class++. Stuff like that would be great. Im not sure what else they can do at this point with classes that changes them alot. I think the route they are going with AP & essences is the way we are getting "flair".

[Super Kami Dende]

I'd love a seal system back. I actually lost a lot of enjoyment on my paladin when it went to the holy power system.

[Cracked]

How exactly is a 30 second self-buff that literally only adds a "chance on hit"-effect unique?

How is it not? What other class has something like that? Depending on which system you build around it, it doesn't need to be dull.

[Lorianus]

How is it not? What other class has something like that? Depending on which system you build around it, it doesn't need to be dull.

We had empowered seals, it was clunky AF., every iteration of seals that consist of low duration buff and a button press that triggers the GCD will be undesirable to play.

I mean people start to cry about Inquisition/Slice and dice every time those talents become nummericaly the best, people hate maintenance buffs for the most part.

And normal seals like they were in MoP - WoD just were a am i fighting one or three targets, i mean thats litteraly the same choice of do i use Templars Verdict or Divine Storm.





Same goes for Auras, does this Boss use Shadow dmg ?, guess im locked into Shadowresist Aura for the whole fight with no meaningfull choice what so ever.



What every class needs are standout active utility abilities that make them desirable to bring, like cloak of shadows, bloodlust, mass grp, solar beam ect.

[ColdAralon]

How exactly is a 30 second self-buff that literally only adds a "chance on hit"-effect unique?

It’s not what the seals provide it’s how it’s used. I think WOTLK has it right when you had the three different types of judgements to go with the seals.

[Wrecktangle]

It’s not what the seals provide it’s how it’s used. I think WOTLK has it right when you had the three different types of judgements to go with the seals.

You just picked one and used it, since all 3 were likely covered by you (the ret) and any other paladin in the raid. In smaller group format, IIRC - Light was pretty much the standard.

Seals as a mechanic has generally been either clunky or tedious. Thematically they're a great idea, but implementing them in a meaningful, fun, and interesting way has always been the challenge.

Classic was most certainly not a good iteration and swapping seals for passive aoe/st damage was not either (late WotLK,+). The only time I personally enjoyed Seal based gameplay was with Martyr/Blood, but even then, there were tedious drawbacks.

[Grogplus]

I want seals and auras back, let me explain, I get all the criticism against it but like they removed auras and said its a dead mechanic, everyone nodded in agreement, later on they brought it back as a holy only tool that works well and no one asks any questions. Same with seals, they used to be a ST/AoE passives with almost no interaction, then they made ES which wasn't great but many including me loved it, what did they do? you guessed it they removed it without trying to fix or improve upon. Its like burning down your car every time you need to change tires. Now all thats left is this combo point warrior (of light)

[Cracked]

You just picked one and used it, since all 3 were likely covered by you (the ret) and any other paladin in the raid. In smaller group format, IIRC - Light was pretty much the standard.

Seals as a mechanic has generally been either clunky or tedious. Thematically they're a great idea, but implementing them in a meaningful, fun, and interesting way has always been the challenge.

Classic was most certainly not a good iteration and swapping seals for passive aoe/st damage was not either (late WotLK,+). The only time I personally enjoyed Seal based gameplay was with Martyr/Blood, but even then, there were tedious drawbacks.

And what the f would you want? This is not supposed to be a 300 IQ combat game, it's an RPG, you do what is the most beneficial, but that doesn't mean other choices don't have their use.

[Nfinitii]

Classic class design for Paladins is terrible. I don’t like the seal system.

The holy power system is fine, just needs some improvements. All the hp builders feel the same, and there isn’t much of a choice for spenders.

[Vintersol]

I would like to see seals as an amplifier for judgment which works on judging the opponent. The single target seal makes judgment hitting harder, an AoE seal would cause splash damage around the target. There is no need to have a passive effect.

[cparle87]

Same goes for Auras, does this Boss use Shadow dmg ?, guess im locked into Shadowresist Aura for the whole fight with no meaningfull choice what so ever.

There was a bit of cooperation involved, though. There were talents to improve devotion and retribution auras, iirc. So the paladins would discuss among each other which of them would use each one.

[Wrecktangle]

And what the f would you want? This is not supposed to be a 300 IQ combat game, it's an RPG, you do what is the most beneficial, but that doesn't mean other choices don't have their use.

They're not really choices though. They're binary if/then statements thus not a real choice. I'd want them to be something dynamic and interactive.

I would like to see seals as an amplifier for judgment which works on judging the opponent. The single target seal makes judgment hitting harder, an AoE seal would cause splash damage around the target. There is no need to have a passive effect.

So an even worse iteration than classic? It sounds like you're simply asking for classic implementation, but without the addition of their passive effects?

What do these buttons look like? Just like vanilla aura's toggle switch? That isn't good gameplay at all IMO, especially when your two examples are just more binary if/then statements which were widely criticized among the community in the past.

[Vintersol]

So an even worse iteration than classic? It sounds like you're simply asking for classic implementation, but without the addition of their passive effects?

What do these buttons look like? Just like vanilla aura's toggle switch? That isn't good gameplay at all IMO, especially when your two examples are just more binary if/then statements which were widely criticized among the community in the past.

They work just like stances, call it single target stance, aoe stance, whatever stance. It's simply an amplifier for judgments cast which you can switch depending on the situation. If that is so binary then what is Templars Verdict/Divine Storm then? At least it would add a layer of choice for our only ranged attack.

[Wrecktangle]

They work just like stances, call it single target stance, aoe stance, whatever stance. It's simply an amplifier for judgments cast which you can switch depending on the situation. If that is so binary then what is Templars Verdict/Divine Storm then? At least it would add a layer of choice for our only ranged attack.

That's exactly what I figured. You want to take the awful design of vanilla seals, strip away one half of their functionality and plug it into stance toggles to delineate ST and AOE damage.

It's like combining a half a dozen previously made bad design decisions into one lol.

TV/DS is binary. I can't argue with that, but they're active abilities with built in synergies so it offsets it just a hair.

[Thundering]

I think they should bring back everything + tbc stuff like crusader strike ect.

[Teleros]

WotLK Paladins were the best for me. I would love to see auras, seals, and blessings return as well as the removal of holy power. I loved playing my pally from BC to Wrath but stopped playing him mid way through cata as I hated the changes to the class and the changes only kept getting worse for me after cata. My pally is still my most played character even though I've mained a shadow priest since the end of cata.

all they need to do with paladin is get rid of holy power.

bring back wotlk paladin.

Yup. WotLK Ret was best Ret. You'd have to tweak it a little for today (eg keep a modern interrupt), but things like Seal of Blood & Seal of Clea- I mean, Seal of Command, the T10 set bonus, the "blue rage bar" and so on... good times. Oh and Divine Intervention of course.

The Seal system moreso than Blessings / Auras seems like the thing best suited to making a comeback though, given it's a self-only buff rather than a group one. Eg:

Seal of Blood: Holy % weapon damage (eg 30-50%) on each attack, but you take 10% of that back. Judge for single target damage plus reflected damage. Best ST DPS option.
Seal of Command: Holy % weapon damage (much lower than SoB, say 10%) on each attack, and it cleaves onto all nearby targets. Judge for single target damage. Best AE DPS option.
Seal of Light: Heals you for a % of melee damage done (eg 10-20%). Judge to give all attacks / spells vs target a chance to heal for % of paladin's AP or SP (whichever is higher). Crusader Strike refreshes the debuff duration.
Seal of Justice: Stun proc on its own unique DR. Judge to prevent the target fleeing (if an NPC) & limit its movement speed (doesn't count as snare though). Crusader Strike refreshes the debuff duration.
Seal of the Crusader: Attack faster (up to 40%), but each attack does less damage (overall a buff though). Judge to make the target take more Holy damage from all sources. Crusader Strike refreshes the debuff duration.

Make the buffs unable to be dispelled, and either have them of unlimited duration (like auras) or a long duration (15-60mins), and you're all set. Most will have only niche uses, but that's okay, because good players will be able to get the most out of them.

[Elkas]

10-12 years of shitty seal systems, along with an atrocious playable version right now in classic. The people asking for it to return must be suffering from extreme Stockholm syndrome.

[Cyrde]

Yup. WotLK Ret was best Ret. You'd have to tweak it a little for today (eg keep a modern interrupt), but things like Seal of Blood & Seal of Clea- I mean, Seal of Command, the T10 set bonus, the "blue rage bar" and so on... good times. Oh and Divine Intervention of course.

The Seal system moreso than Blessings / Auras seems like the thing best suited to making a comeback though, given it's a self-only buff rather than a group one. Eg:

Seal of Blood: Holy % weapon damage (eg 30-50%) on each attack, but you take 10% of that back. Judge for single target damage plus reflected damage. Best ST DPS option.
Seal of Command: Holy % weapon damage (much lower than SoB, say 10%) on each attack, and it cleaves onto all nearby targets. Judge for single target damage. Best AE DPS option.
Seal of Light: Heals you for a % of melee damage done (eg 10-20%). Judge to give all attacks / spells vs target a chance to heal for % of paladin's AP or SP (whichever is higher). Crusader Strike refreshes the debuff duration.
Seal of Justice: Stun proc on its own unique DR. Judge to prevent the target fleeing (if an NPC) & limit its movement speed (doesn't count as snare though). Crusader Strike refreshes the debuff duration.
Seal of the Crusader: Attack faster (up to 40%), but each attack does less damage (overall a buff though). Judge to make the target take more Holy damage from all sources. Crusader Strike refreshes the debuff duration.

Make the buffs unable to be dispelled, and either have them of unlimited duration (like auras) or a long duration (15-60mins), and you're all set. Most will have only niche uses, but that's okay, because good players will be able to get the most out of them.

Why do you want to reproduce mistakes from the past ?
Your idea is just the same as it was in the past expansion and I'm sorry but it was baaaad.

Can't you be more creative than that ?

[Celebhil]

Wotlk wasn't the best because of seals.....it was the beginning of our skillset actually being made; we had crusader strike, divine storm, and pretty sure thats around the time when art of war procs first emerged as making exorcism instant cast

the only retail stuff we should get back is stuff that had utility.

oh but im pretty sure flash of light at is stands in retail sucks way too much. no point in having a button that is so worthless you have to spam it 5 times to get impact, use it out of combat OR get selfless healer for it to be meaningful; if our healing/ group healing gets buffed a lot of this talk may be unnecessary.