Elements of classic paladin class to be implemented in retail

[FlubberPuddy]

Regardless of Blizz's intent - I'm arguing that fire and forget buffs are functionally useless. If it doesn't have a visible gameplay impact or opportunity for a decision tree then I believe it's poorly designed. Setting Fort or blessings up are one and done affair. They're not dynamic or interesting IMO.

That's fair, nothing wrong with an opinion. But also nothing further to discuss in this bit either.

Which goes back to my original example where I joked about tooltips being blank. It's not the ability that people cherish, it's the act of collaborating. I have to believe there are far more interesting ways to accomplish this dynamic than with bland inconsequential buffs.

I think you're looking at abilities based solely on their effectiveness and not what can make an ability "fun". And if you are looking at what's fun then it seems to be what's fun solely to you. I believe people like the "fire and forget" stuff because at its very basis, like you say (act of collaborating), it feels helpful. "I buffed this guy's HP, I did something helpful". Or if doing Pally Auras, "My aura is giving the party more X, regardless of what else I'm doing."

If you feel there are more "dynamic" ways to do this then I would gladly read suggestions. After all, they're going to change the classes every expansion or so, but our communication amongst others could lead its way to feedback for Blizzard.

Regarding - food/pots/flasks I honestly don't think they're good design either. I look to a game like MHW that does consumables in a much more interesting manner, but it's a slightly different genre so there's that.

It's a different genre for sure, but also combat is handled differently. I have only made it up to Nergigante so forgive me if it's different but, in MHW every monster is designed in a way to allow "breathing room" for consumable use during a fight with it. Whereas in WoW, there's constantly something to be doing throughout a raid/boss fight that doesn't allow one to take 5 secs or so to use up a consumable. Also in WoW consumables are instant cast whereas there's a "cast time" in MHW.

Agreed - I apologize for confusing you there. I do not consider them fire and forget abilities. You had mentioned about "mashing buttons" and that you think Ret needs more abilities that are pressed every few minutes or so. While I agreed that we could use a few more buttons, I didn't want any more abilities with long cooldowns. I think that's one area where Ret is fairly well tooled.

No to the bold. You're still misunderstanding me there. I'm saying Ret as enough of those abilities casted every few mins or so. What I would like is more "fire and forget" stuff back for Paladins. So, I'm agreeing with you that they have "enough abilities pressed every few minutes".

To expand on what I'd like out of these classic elements (seals, auras, blessings) and how I'd make them more interesting/dynamic... Maybe I'll make a separate post to put a build together. If you comb through my post history (look at the started threads) you can find a few other builds I put together over the years for fun.

That would sound like an interesting read. I enjoy the class talk, it's fun to see the different design ideas people have for the classes.

[ultima ratio]

i quit Vanilla ret june 2005 at lvl 36, cuz spec and overall Vanilla gameplay was tedious (and Neocron: Beyond The Dome Of York release).
i wont play Classic due to this "experience" and if i would ret would not be an option. i dont know about holy or prot, but for ret - stay classic, if u want classic elements in retribution, dont spoil the effort of millions to convince Blizzney for a sustained damage revamp (Legion).

there was only one gameplaywise interesting version of seals: empowered seals (WoD), as it was a little more tactical than AoE, ST, Mana Seal. but overall Seals didnt add much to gameplay, Seal of Truth in fact was inferior due to ramp-up (5 Stacks to be competetive) on farm and PvP.
ret doesnt need boring seals or boring gameplay. but interesting options for tactical decision that may save the raid or consolidate my parse due to great play...

[bloodmoth13]

I do miss seals to a degree, iirc you could overlap them with the previous judgement effect to get more value from effects (i think one gave haste when judgement was used while another had on hit damage), which was interesting and i think it could be an interesting design space, but it would require a complete redesign to implement them in a worthy way.

What i do not want to see at all is some boring invisible buff that sits in the top right corner telling me i do more damage with it up that i only apply every 30 minutes, 5 minutes or 1 minute. If the buff is applied it NEEDS to affect gameplay so i can feel that it is active, and NOT just passively increase my damage, or rather lower my damage if not applied.

Auras i dont want to see either, they were boring as fuck and had no associated gameplay that affected the way you think about the class, it was fire and forget. Leave them in the trash where they belong or bring them back in an interesting gameplay affecting way.

Blessings can die in a fire. I honestly dont care to revisit class buffs, they were a solution to a problem that shouldnt exist, they existed to deter class stacking by encouraging more diverse comps, but that just show s a weakness in class design if that kind of fix is required. Id rather more flexible class niches that involve gameplay.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Why would you not talk about MoP Ret when it, clearly, was the best version of the spec and class as a whole, just like a lot of classes/specs were? Not perfect, obviously, but they were really close to nailing class design at MoP ...then they ruined (pruned) and added RNG circus in WoD++

[Nobleshield]

Honestly I liked Paladin the most during Wrath, and slightly less in Mists (I didn't really play my Pally in Cata so I don't remember how they played then). Seals are a major thing and should come back. Auras too. I'm not sure if seals should be the vanilla style though where you're autoattacking with seals providing extra, I liked the later versions where they were legitimate buffs with real durations and you had abilities to use. I do like having judgment give something extra based on the seal you have though.

[roboscorcher]

Vanilla seals are interesting, but could use some work. Applying them sucked and can lead to accidental DPS loss. However, they offer some cool gameplay options. I honestly find Classic's seal-stun-judge-seal-AA rotation more interesting than Retail's, simply because it breaks the builder-spender mold. There's more to consider than just a HoPo meter.

Here's what I would do:

Seals would be permanent persistent-through-death buff. I would create seals and auras that interact with each other, and offer compelling reasons to switch it up. Maybe one seal would reduce builder damage but boost spender damage. You would want to use this if you got 10sec proc that reduces HoPo costs to 1, or refunds the HoPo. Another seal could buff your Consecrate damage by a lot, but reduce your survivability or DPS. There's a lot of cool stuff they could do. I guess the challenge is fitting this into the retail rotation, which is finally filled out after all these years.

[Tyron]

- Seals (a new version, not one based on vanilla/tbc)
- Exorcism!

[igualitarist]

Auras
Seals
Blessings
Divine Intervention
Niche skills, like exorcism and holy wrath.

Retail paladin is just destroyed, and i just cant play my favorite class anymore.

[Celebhil]

Auras and Seals- agreed. some of us even suggest weaving them together; a dynamic that would make them useful yet not "fire and forget", maybe even engaging.

blessings: im not so sure, if anything they should be CD oriented instead of passive buffs, such as freedom and protection. Have 1, but very powerful sacred shield CD spell instead of the current "kings", salvation as a "reverse taunt"; outright negate threat on a friendly player (the usefulness of this would depend greatly on whether or not threat becomes more pertinent in tanking. not so sure what might should be without making it either passive buff like usual or the lame "buff dps of a player". Should seal/judgement of wisdom be brought back somehow it would render wisdom redundant, so it would be one or the other depending on how blizzard wants to moderate a paladin's ability to regen mana (to one player or many)

exorcism? we have blade of justice, its a bit superfluous at this point
holy wrath? maybe, but i think it would be another one of those things that'd need to be redesigned, or its just going to be a spell that is OP (in pvp at least...) or worthless. We suffered through Warlords lack of a meaningful talent long enough to know holy wrath isn't good, lets not be nostalgic about it bc of how useful it was clearing scourge and legion content.
my suggestion for it would be turning it into uther's wave of light (HoTS): aoe holy spell (moderate CD) that heals allies and hurts enemies. A even more controversial and bold idea would be, tinker light of dawn to do just that and give it to every paladin, then offer holy spec talents or modifiers to be more proficient with its use.

[textz]

vanilla paladin was restricted to holy for most endcontent. so pls no classic elements for us!

[xxcloud417xx]

Retrofit HP spenders (and HP itself) into charges of a given Seal you can swap between and accumulate before "unleashing". Justicar's Vengeance is literally just old Seal of Command so combine that with Seal of Justice's chance to stun on hit for PvP and single-target M+ DPS where you CAN stun. Seal of Crusader is effectively Inquisition, whilst Seal of Righteousness would replace Divine Storm and should refund charges if unleashed on a different target to your last unleash. Seal of Light is Word of Glory, add a self-heal on hit and put a talent to make it party-wide. Make Seal of Wisdom Holy-exclusive and require the HoPa to stay in melee to benefit from it. Having a Seal that provides raid utility at a cost of DPS isn't a bad shout.

Bring back the additional (utility) bonuses against Demons, Undead (and let's throw in Aberrations since that's what Void seem to be). Take or leave Hammer of Wrath (or any Execute).

Just broadly add more Support Utility to the Class that isn't just Oh Shi- buttons. And make us have to choose which one we want to use.

Also an occasional cast time, if suitably rewarding when correctly used, could be cool. One of the books had a really cool concept where Paladins basically knelt to say a prayer to their weapons and it infused them with massive power for a short time. Paladins have had hard-casting a few times in their early history. Gave them that hybrid-shockadin feel.

Yikes, just a lot of yikes. So your idea of making Paladins feel better is to layer clunky gameplay on top of more clunky gameplay in the current age of the GCD change? Why?

The only thing I agree with here is the utility. As a Prot player for years and a Ret player since Legion, I'd like to see some of my old toolkit back. Maybe not for Ret cuz it would be a lot of wasted GCDs on popping utility stuff if we got more than we have now, but Protection used to basically be a support tank. Nowadays tank utility has been reduced to "do more DPS so we can hit this boss' check." I find that a waste.

- - - Updated - - -

I do miss seals to a degree, iirc you could overlap them with the previous judgement effect to get more value from effects (i think one gave haste when judgement was used while another had on hit damage), which was interesting and i think it could be an interesting design space, but it would require a complete redesign to implement them in a worthy way.

Even when we had the talent that made seal swapping a viable gameplay strategy. It was so goddamn clunky and unintuitive that most Paladins didn't run it for the marginal DPS gain it provided. The general attitude was pretty much "fuck that headache for less than 1% dps"

I honestly think the OP's question is not a great one to be asking people who play this particular class. Despite the flaws people think Paladins have currently. It's objectively still a better iteration than anything we had in Vanilla on the simple basis alone that all 3 specs are actually viable right now.

[pewpmeiser]

None of them!

[thesmall001]

Yikes, just a lot of yikes. So your idea of making Paladins feel better is to layer clunky gameplay on top of more clunky gameplay in the current age of the GCD change? Why?

I couldn't care less about the GCD change. Everybody was hysterical about it and I didn't even slightly care. I actually kind of appreciated them adding animations and effects to a few CDs to justify the cost of a GCD. I felt that up-front visceral feel was preferable. WoW's combat strikes the right balance between smooth and deliberate at 1500ms. Haste can let you bend that rule linearly, and it's some classes can enjoy faster pace as part of their identity, but 1.5s feels right for Paladins. They're 2H Plate Hybrids, not the traditional Holy Monk archetype.

[bloodmoth13]

Even when we had the talent that made seal swapping a viable gameplay strategy. It was so goddamn clunky and unintuitive that most Paladins didn't run it for the marginal DPS gain it provided. The general attitude was pretty much "fuck that headache for less than 1% dps"

I honestly think the OP's question is not a great one to be asking people who play this particular class. Despite the flaws people think Paladins have currently. It's objectively still a better iteration than anything we had in Vanilla on the simple basis alone that all 3 specs are actually viable right now.

I completely agree, and i actually like current paladin, i think the design is solid, gameplay smooth and i love the spell effects, especially blade of light.
Thats why i said it would need a complete redesign, and if im honest i dont want that. I dont think retail deserves some of the hate it gets.

Vanilla paladin design was fucking horrid, boring as fuck. But i did like the concept of seals and judgements.I am of the opinion though that 'buffs' should never be passive. Outlaw rogues i think have incredibly well designed 'buffs' with roll the bones. you always get something different and it impacts your combat flow in an interesting way. its like every 30s you get a new rotation and need to adapt to it.

Honestly, i think that 'buff' concept of short term buffs that overlap eachother for bonus effects and an ability to 'detonate' them would work really well for a bard class (riffs and crescendos or something)
In saying that i dont think i ever want to see a bard class added to the game, i think the concept is stupid, but i enjoy theorizing even about things i hate.

[xxcloud417xx]

I couldn't care less about the GCD change. Everybody was hysterical about it and I didn't even slightly care. I actually kind of appreciated them adding animations and effects to a few CDs to justify the cost of a GCD. I felt that up-front visceral feel was preferable. WoW's combat strikes the right balance between smooth and deliberate at 1500ms. Haste can let you bend that rule linearly, and it's some classes can enjoy faster pace as part of their identity, but 1.5s feels right for Paladins. They're 2H Plate Hybrids, not the traditional Holy Monk archetype.

I have 8 GCDs before I can cast my first Templar's Verdict on pull. I also have Bubble and Steed on the GCD. Adding hard casts and more utility that in a clutch moment is just gonna be on the fucking GCD when someone needed it, is a bad, bad feeling. So, sure, maybe you think you're unaffected, but if you play Ret at higher tiers, it's when you start to see how the GCD change is awful.

[roboscorcher]

Upon further reflection, I think they should merge Seal gameplay into Auras.

Make Auras that are persistent through death and modify our rotation (ret aura could add cleave to our HoPo-builder abilities, sanctity could buff our spenders, etc). Auras also modify Judgement, similar to classic. The biggest change I would make is that auras would only apply to the Paladin, until Aura Mastery is pressed. That would apply a temporary effert to the raid/party, unique to each aura.

EDIT: Also give us Vengeance procs back in some form. Maybe limit them to crits from AA or Spenders, but give the procs a longer duration. It would be a nice splash of RNG to our very predictible rotation.

[PelinalWhitestrake]

Keep from retail:

- Their slow
- Their interrupt
- Divine Storm*
- Their taunt

Keep from classic:

- Seals
- Auras
- Judgement interaction with seals
- Strength of their off healing
- Holy Light
- Blessings**
- Divine Intervention
- Holy Wrath
- Exorcism

* Divine Storm: Uhh, honestly, i could do without this one, under the condition that consecration is buffed to compensate.
** Blessings: Keep, but change them. 5min duration is trash and everyone knows it. The actual variety is cool though. Make them 30 minutes like every other buff in vanilla and thats really all you need to do.

Result: You have a modern class that actually has a theme: a holy warrior of light that can off heal and deals exceptionally well with undead. Currently, they're just arms warriors with different animations.

THIS!, even holy itself that is a healing spec is a joke ever since legion, it doesnt feel like im playing a paladin.

[ipoststuff]

I really don't sea the appeal of seals. Melee attacks do increased dmg. No one liked seals when they were first introduced instead of crusader strike/holy strike. For the entirety of classic we asked for a melee strike which we have gotten at TBC prepatch.

[Mukind]

I'm told there are counters to bubble?

Why?

Wut?

How about renew the sanctity of bubble

[Pugfugly]

I really don't sea the appeal of seals. Melee attacks do increased dmg. No one liked seals when they were first introduced instead of crusader strike/holy strike. For the entirety of classic we asked for a melee strike which we have gotten at TBC prepatch.

I believe the appeal is that it is a unique system in the game. It isn't perfect and could be improved upon. But at least it's not just another combo building spec as it exists today.