Arcane torrent needed nerf but shadowmeld is fine??

[Shakana]

Bless your heart OP.

Arcane torrent OP and broken for near 10 years, but the sheer amount of crying during BFA alone because there's now alliance representation in ANYTHING because of one racial that is nothing more than a combat drop.. it brings a tear of happiness to my eye.

I agree it is on the broken side of things (and will likely be nerfed because of it).. but my god. Get a grip.

That's actually true, it survived near 10 years and now they nerfed it cause of the cry that they are too OP on M+ and alliance couldn't compete with horde racials.

Void elves
Entropic Embrace: Your abilities have a chance to empower you with the essence of the Void. Entropic Embrace increases damage and healing by 5% for 12 sec. It has a 33% proc chance with 60 seconds internal cooldown.
Preternatural Calm: Your spell casts are not delayed by taking damage.

Humans
Every Man for Himself - Removes all stun effects.

For me those are from alliance that are the best racials.

On horde i loved arcane torrent from belfs, berserking and regeneration from trolls.

- - - Updated - - -

Chaos Nova is still a stun, the disoriented one is cancelled.

Lol, i am confused. Well the time is so little that i didn't even pay attention to thaat, and that as well reflects a bit of my interest in bfa's dh. I love dh but in the beginning it felt really weak. They changed a lot of stuff on dh. as i said, i still live in legion, and i have been playing more other classes to get a bit relief from dh and get distracted with other classes understanding. But that's probably the one thing i was confused about. (I also woke up now, i barely can type accurate) thank you for correcting me without calling me retarded, appreciated xD

[klaps_05]

As this doesnt affect MDi at all, i sense this is some angry horde kids whining cause its void week. Love all the tears about shadowmeld after the only reason horde could do the highest keys in Legion was arcane torrent which lasted for 3 years and is still strong in BFA as a dispel. To counter shadowmeld they need to fundamentally change how NPCs work in all of wow not just dungeons.

Arcane torrent and meld also addressed 2 completely different issues:

Meld is strong now because a straight run in a dungeon puts you at 120-130% trash in cases like KR, Temple, Atal.

Arcane torrent made impossible pulls possible as you basically had a permanent silence into 2 stuns which gave enough time clear the packs (e.g. pulls in DHT and Arcway were impossible for alliance unless you had absolute godly control, compared to an Arcane torrent ration).

Tldr: OG arcane torrent allowed you to do things which you shouldnt be able to, while Meld allows you to skip some trash, but still have to clear up to 100%.

[Mikazukinoyaiba]

As this doesnt affect MDi at all, i sense this is some angry horde kids whining cause its void week. Love all the tears about shadowmeld after the only reason horde could do the highest keys in Legion was arcane torrent which lasted for 3 years and is still strong in BFA as a dispel. To counter shadowmeld they need to fundamentally change how NPCs work in all of wow not just dungeons.

Arcane torrent and meld also addressed 2 completely different issues:

Meld is strong now because a straight run in a dungeon puts you at 120-130% trash in cases like KR, Temple, Atal.

Arcane torrent made impossible pulls possible as you basically had a permanent silence into 2 stuns which gave enough time clear the packs (e.g. pulls in DHT and Arcway were impossible for alliance unless you had absolute godly control, compared to an Arcane torrent ration).

Tldr: OG arcane torrent allowed you to do things which you shouldnt be able to, while Meld allows you to skip some trash, but still have to clear up to 100%.

IDK what you're trying to argue here, arcane torrent being in the game for 3 years, yet Shadowmeld have been in the game for decade.

Dungeon balance shouldnt be tuned around a single ability, its ok if you dont agree, 100% of the mdi team is night elves and all the casters are talking about it 24/7.

It will get nerfed but your effort is respectable.

[DotEleven]

You do only need the healer to be the Night Elf, more than that is just a luxury, Brez reach is thousand yards.

You do know how SM works right? you ran straight thru multiple deadly pack, meld and grats you skipped 6 minutes of hard fight.

Losing 28 sec (if you have 1 Night Elf) and saving 6 minutes timer is totally worth it am i talking to M+ player atm?



That's because shadowmeld is not a stealth/prowl/shroud ability, They're basically vanish, a 2 minute cooldown ability attached to a racial.
Nerfing it into stealth is the way to make it not OP. The problem is definitely Shadowmeld being a vanish and not the dungeon design.

There's no way the devs can design around shadowmeld unless they implement zone wide true sight, but thats basically would indirectly nerf rogue's vanish (which is fine for a class that doesnt have a mass ress ability), and again, devs shouldn't design every dungeon around a single racial ability, they removed Dark Simulacrum from PVE for this reason alone.

Oh, now we're going six minutes? The other person said it was 1-4. Not to mention that like I said it's 28 seconds PER time you do the strat it. It's also funny cause you say this, yet all the people at MDI run everyone as night elves when they go alliance (except one team I saw which went with a LD HEALER so they can't use your thing).

Finally, if that's all that matters you can skip the whole "die and have your healer rez everyone" by using Shroud of Concealment and having everyone be stealthed anyway.

[Aeula]

Alliance whine louder than Horde. So naturally their racials rarely get nerfed.

[Mikazukinoyaiba]

Oh, now we're going six minutes? The other person said it was 1-4. Not to mention that like I said it's 28 seconds PER time you do the strat it. It's also funny cause you say this, yet all the people at MDI run everyone as night elves when they go alliance (except one team I saw which went with a LD HEALER so they can't use your thing).

Finally, if that's all that matters you can skip the whole "die and have your healer rez everyone" by using Shroud of Concealment and having everyone be stealthed anyway.

Im sorry but pretty sure 2 person can have 2 different opinion, triple skipping Motherlode definitely worth more than 1-4 minutes, 1-4 minutes is underestimating Shadowmeld wayyyyyy too much.

And no, you cant shroud Void Emissary or Rizzak's route but you definitely can meld them.

Most people think stealth and vanish have the same/equal value, they're misinformed, Shadowmeld is a vanish, shroud is a stealth.

[DotEleven]

Im sorry but pretty sure 2 person can have 2 different opinion, triple skipping Motherlode definitely worth more than 1-4 minutes, 1-4 minutes is underestimating Shadowmeld wayyyyyy too much.

And no, you cant shroud Void Emissary or Rizzak's route but you definitely can meld them.

Most people think stealth and vanish have the same/equal value, they're misinformed, Shadowmeld is a vanish, shroud is a stealth.

It's still like I said, gonna be 30 seconds PER resurrection if you only have one Night Elf as the healer.

There's a reason the pros use 5. Because otherwise it's just not worth it. So once again, is it really so problematic if it requires 5 of them? Arcane Torrent was a problem because you brought one Blood Elf along and you just destroyed people. In PvE, in PvP it was just amazing and it only got stronger if you brought even more. You only have one Shadowmeld and it's just not worth it to do these Shadowmeld strats.

[Mikazukinoyaiba]

It's still like I said, gonna be 30 seconds PER resurrection if you only have one Night Elf as the healer.

There's a reason the pros use 5. Because otherwise it's just not worth it. So once again, is it really so problematic if it requires 5 of them? Arcane Torrent was a problem because you brought one Blood Elf along and you just destroyed people. In PvE, in PvP it was just amazing and it only got stronger if you brought even more. You only have one Shadowmeld and it's just not worth it to do these Shadowmeld strats.

Ok what's wrong with 30 second? You're legit the only one in the entire universe that said throwing 30 seconds to get 6 minutes advantage is not worth it.

Tell me why is it not worth it? Dont just argue for the sake of arguing.

Also LMAO at "you just brought one Blood Elf and you destroyed people", If AoE interrupt is that strong MDI people would not have bring Troll Warlock into the mix.

Name 1 race from vanilla until now that can give you 6 minutes advantage in M+, definitely not Orc, definitely not Human, definitely not pre nerfed Arcane Torrent.

[monkaW]

It's still like I said, gonna be 30 seconds PER resurrection if you only have one Night Elf as the healer.

There's a reason the pros use 5. Because otherwise it's just not worth it. So once again, is it really so problematic if it requires 5 of them? Arcane Torrent was a problem because you brought one Blood Elf along and you just destroyed people. In PvE, in PvP it was just amazing and it only got stronger if you brought even more. You only have one Shadowmeld and it's just not worth it to do these Shadowmeld strats.

Dude its fine the nerf will happen in the next expansion, you got like a year worth of unnerfed Shadowmeld : ))

Just calm down ok.

[DotEleven]

Ok what's wrong with 30 second? You're legit the only one in the entire universe that said throwing 30 seconds to get 6 minutes advantage is not worth it.

Tell me why is it not worth it? Dont just argue for the sake of arguing.

Also LMAO at "you just brought one Blood Elf and you destroyed people", If AoE interrupt is that strong MDI people would not have bring Troll Warlock into the mix.

Name 1 race from vanilla until now that can give you 6 minutes advantage in M+, definitely not Orc, definitely not Human, definitely not pre nerfed Arcane Torrent.

30 seconds PER USE. You're not doing it just once. Each time you want to do that Shadowmeld drop is another 30 and another 30 and another 30.

Dude its fine the nerf will happen in the next expansion, you got like a year worth of unnerfed Shadowmeld : ))

Just calm down ok.

It's funny cause I haven't even done it. I have no interest in personally doing it. BTW, nice joke. "Only a year with unnerfed Shadowmeld" Even if we call Shadowmeld OP, just how long was Arcane Torrent allowed to be broken in EVERY facet of the game instead of just one niche aspect that requires everyone to take it.

[idunnowatdo]

I thought keys were horde dominated anyway so the fact that might elves can do it is mostly moot and just used mostly in tournament settings.

[HCLM]

I mean, you could just use pots to achieve the same result

No. There is a major difference. After you drink pot you have 25 or so seconds to get from point A to point B. Meanwhile, as NE you can just rush through the mobs and vanish at any moment u want AND u can still use pot.

Every single MDI players is confirming that NE racial is OP.

One of the main reasons noone was even trying to play Ele shaman was = NE cannot be shaman

[Mindstripper]

There's a difference between good and gamebreaking, Lightforged AOE damage racial is good, Dark Iron racial is good, Void Elves racial is good, Shadowmeld is broken.

No. It's not. Because, again, IT ONLY WORKS IF YOUR PARTY CONSISTS ENTIRELY OF NIGHT ELVES AND ROGUES. Which means there are at least 3 classes that you can't take in that Comp because NElves don't have access to it.

The Lightforged AoE damage racial is passive and only works if you've fucked up, there's nothing clutch or rewarding about it's gameplay. The Void Elf racial is just a really shitty Blink-esque ability on a 3min CD, and is completely useless and Entropic Embrace has a 60sec internal CD and is just a minor amount of extra damage during those 12 seconds. The Dark Iron racial is just a DPS version of Stoneform, which is arguably the best racial that Alliance gets outside of Shadowmeld and is shit compared to pretty much any of the Horde racials. I mean you're really gonna tell me that Light's Reckoning, Spacial Rift or Stoneform/Fireblood is as good as Berserking? Or Blood Fury? Or Touch of the Grave? I'm gonna call absolute bullshit.

That's not even going into Every Man For Himself vs Will of the Forsaken. They both break CC effects, they both trigger a shared CD on other such abilities, e.g. Medallion. Will of the Forsaken hits 3 different types of CC (Sleep, Fear and Charm), is on a 2min CD and only triggers a 30sec shared CD. Every Man For Himself only hits Stuns, and while that's arguably the most important one, it's on a 3min CD and triggers a 90sec shared CD....That's fucking bullshit.

I can go, right now, and look at all the racials and I don't think I'd find a SINGLE bad Horde racial. Like Nightborne get just a straight 1% spell damage increase and have access to every single DPS caster spec except Elemental Shaman and Balance Druid. What the fuck is that? Alliance doesn't get anything even approaching that good, the most comparable racial we have is probably Viciousness on Worgen, which is a passive 1% crit chance, and that's nowhere near as good.

But no, Alliance gets ONE racial, that let's them skip trash IN A VERY SPECIFIC COMP, which only matters for this ONE SPECIFIC EVENT, and suddenly the Horde lose their minds. Because like I've said multiple times in this thread already, GOD FORBID THE ALLIANCE GET ANYTHING NICE.

[Goldfingaz]

To be fair Arcane Torrent broke when they removed Mana Tap. They should have brought Mana Tap back, make sure it's on the GCD and problem solved. They could even limit it to force you to have 3 stacks of it before Arcane Torrent can work.

The focus we have on MDI and nerfing/balancing things is absurd. I wish they wouldn't have turned PvE into an E-Sport.

[Ealyssa]

Yes, I forgot everyone mained Belf outside of MDI when AT was deemed too OP. It being OP and unfair in a professional invitational makes it even worse. Perfectly balanced, esport ready.

But that's the whole point...

BE was stupidly OP no matter the context, you didnt need everyone to be BE. Just that every single one you had made the group run easier. And it also allowed class without interupt to have one.

NE on the other side is super gimmicky where you have to have your whole group is NE or its pretty much pointless. It's a MDI only thing, it has no impact on live players (who are still playing horde, because alliance is dead)

[LuminaL]

didnt they already shit on night elves and the alliance is on a fucked up state of low players? a nerf to both will piss on both players and the game. its probably the only good thing alliance has

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you can achieve the same shit with most classes, a druid/shaman/DK/ rogue with eng in your team and you get the same thing.

the only difference that people refuse to understand is if in MDI they use all Night elves its because they are racing on seconds. 95% of all normal player groups it doesnt matter if its 15:14 min left or 16:32

[Mindstripper]

It's a MDI only thing, it has no impact on live players (who are still playing horde, because alliance is dead)

This is the truth. Right here. It doesn't matter because outside of the MDI, it's a super specific comp on the faction that sees the least amount of competitive play. I mean the fact that max level Horde out number max level Alliance across all servers by 15% isn't enough, Horde has more players actively playing Arena, more players actively raiding, more players actively doing high level mythic keys. So when the amount of active players on Horde outnumbers alliance by...I wanna say 5:1, what does it matter if Alliance has ONE racial that works REALLY well for this ONE specific event.

[ID811717]

No. It's not. Because, again, IT ONLY WORKS IF YOUR PARTY CONSISTS ENTIRELY OF NIGHT ELVES AND ROGUES. Which means there are at least 3 classes that you can't take in that Comp because NElves don't have access to it.

Just make your healer shadowmeld and mass res those who could not pass. That might still be better than clearing painful trash (such as ML mobs between 2nd and 3rd bosses, and then between 3rd and 4th bosses).

the only difference that people refuse to understand is if in MDI they use all Night elves its because they are racing on seconds. 95% of all normal player groups it doesnt matter if its 15:14 min left or 16:32

But we are racing on seconds in live keys as well. Regardless of whether you can time +10 and then deplete +11 by 30 seconds. Or you can time +21 and then deplete +22 by 30 seconds. Either way: getting those 30 seconds from shadowmeld will help you time a higher key (although, if you can not time +11, then lack of shadowmeld is not your biggest problem).

You will probably respond that it's a niche problem for 1% of game's population. And you will be correct. But likewise, the M+ meta should only be a concern for 1% of game's population (people want to invite only warrior tank, druid healer, and preferably only melee DPS players). Yet somehow it tickles down all the way to keys below +10. So I can see why the (lack of) shadowmeld is perceived in a similar way.

[DotEleven]

Just make your healer shadowmeld and mass res those who could not pass. That might still be better than clearing painful trash (such as ML mobs between 2nd and 3rd bosses, and then between 3rd and 4th bosses).



But we are racing on seconds in live keys as well. Regardless of whether you can time +10 and then deplete +11 by 30 seconds. Or you can time +21 and then deplete +22 by 30 seconds. Either way: getting those 30 seconds from shadowmeld will help you time a higher key (although, if you can not time +11, then lack of shadowmeld is not your biggest problem).

You will probably respond that it's a niche problem for 1% of game's population. And you will be correct. But likewise, the M+ meta should only be a concern for 1% of game's population (people want to invite only warrior tank, druid healer, and preferably only melee DPS players). Yet somehow it tickles down all the way to keys below +10. So I can see why the (lack of) shadowmeld is perceived in a similar way.

Once again, every time you do this it's 30 seconds +. 5 seconds per death, 8-10 seconds for the mass res and the time it took to wait for your team to die in the first place.

Remember, we're talking MDI here because that's the only place that is having this issue of a bunch of Night Elves, you know, where they do 5 man comps because having only one Shadowmeld doesn't do anything.

[ID811717]

Once again, every time you do this it's 30 seconds +. 5 seconds per death, 8-10 seconds for the mass res and the time it took to wait for your team to die in the first place.

Remember, we're talking MDI here because that's the only place that is having this issue of a bunch of Night Elves, you know, where they do 5 man comps because having only one Shadowmeld doesn't do anything.

At some point it is well worth it even if healer has to mass res everyone else. The resto druid dominance was not established yet in Season 1 of BfA M+. But it was already clear that it was very inefficient to clear any trash after 2nd boss in ML. So while running with non-healer druids, I'm afraid to admit, how many +17,+18,+19 keys my groups depleted throughout the 1st Season just because of the failed death skips in ML (we rarely had resto druid, warlock or bdk in group, but often had some boomie that would die before landing a CR on the healer).

There are many other spots across M+ dungeons (especially on void-heavy weeks) where skips are very desirable. Just on top of my head: 2nd pull on the left side after starting a Temple key, which usually gets shrouded when Void emissary is not there.

Also, if you were active in M+ in Legion, you might remember just how powerful Failure Detection Pylons were. It made for a lot of easy skips and easy wipe recoveries. Shadomeld gives a lot of the same. Especially on the healers, since they are normally not the first to die.

Now again, this is a very niche problem. Not even 1%. Make it 0.001% if you wish. But if Shadowmeld was available to some horde race, I think a large fraction of characters starting from ~2.3k score (as of now) would pay for a race change. Especially the healers.

I just checked world top 100 alliance characters in M+. Only 22 of them are not Night Elves:
7 Rogues (they can vanish)
2 Hunter (they can feign death)
4 Shamans (night elf race not available)
5 Paladins (night elf race not available)
3 Prot Warriors (all of them dark iron dwarves)
1 Monk (pandaren)
So there are only 4 chars (warriors and monk) out of 100 that could benefit from playing Night Elf but for some reason decided not to race change. It would be interesting to check similar statistics for top 1000-3000 alliance chars but I know no easy way to do that.

P.S. The first response on this reddit question suggests a lot of different ways how to use Shadowmeld in M+, among other things to avoid certain boss abilities that could one-shot you.