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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by NabyBro View Post
    First off, let me get this one straight: I don't care whether alliance or horde racials are Op, if they are OP i have a problem with it.

    You are clearly biased towards alliance side.

    Horde racials being stronger for PvE is not a thing for many years now. This argument holds zero relevance toward this topic at all.
    Arcane Torrent was OP for a very long time, and I was one of the people saying it should be nerfed. It was.

    There is a huge problem with Shadowmelf in MDI because MDI (as you said so) is there to entertain. Shadowmeld cheeses a fundamental part of an M+ run, and if that's the go-to strategy every single time then the show loses entertainment value.
    Look at cheese tactics in MOBA games and how fast they are fixed once they start ruining the entertainment on a championship level. Exact same situation.
    Problem is, M+ in its current form is here to stay. So Blizz can't just adapt the whole M+ system to one racial, guess what needs to be addressed then.

    Raiding has little to no relevance to this topic, but let's see: The big guilds operate at least 4-5 characters per person. That's why Limit went back to horde, they didn't transfer every single one of their characters, just the main ones at that time.
    Racial difference in power in current wow is non-existent. The reason why Limit and Method and other big guild are Horde is because: They like that more, and it gives them better recruitment scene. NOT because alliance racials are so garbage that they wouldn't be able to raid. Don't mistake the lack of big Alliance pve guilds to alliance being objectively worse. No correlation there.

    You also have to handle last bosses of a raid and M+ differently. Yes, the troll passive was good for Jaina but that's one encounter in one tier and it's a minor passive.
    If a boss had a massive raidwide stun on a frequent basis everyone would be orc.
    If a boss had a massive raidwide bleed everyone would be Dark iron.
    If a boss required constant underwater movement (with no buff like in EP) everyone would be Kul Tiran.
    Etc etc etc
    These only matter ofc if said bosses are the last bosses in a raid (nobody would care to race change to the first bosses of any raid).
    And even then, Trolls didn't trivilize the Jaina encounter. They didn't teleport to the ice arena or anything. It was just very slighty better.
    This type of advantage is on the encounter designers, not the class/race balance team.

    The problem with Shadowmeld is that the M+ scene won't change. Jaina is a last tier boss now, no-one cares about that. Hell, no-one cared about it after the world first either. Shadowmeld's power will stay because no matter what affix blizz comes up with in 8.3, it won't affect Shadowmeld's ability to trivialize trash packs.

    Saying that there is invis potions or shroud or whatever doesn't address the problem either. They are there, and then there is Shadowmeld ON TOP of them. They are not mutually exclusive. If they were (like Shadowmeld shared a cooldown with shroud and invis potions) that would actually solve the problem pretty good imo.
    I'd suggest that as a solution, now that I think about it. It's already the case with undead/human racials.

    And yes, subtlety rogues WERE deleted (in PvE at least). Tell me when was the last time you saw a sub rogue in any PvE content that required actual group effort.
    I can tell you when I did, it was 2018 November. I haven't seen a single sub rogue since then, and I play 3 characters actievely, doing +10 and higher keys and heroic raids every single week.

    Shadowmeld doesn't have to be 'really good' anywhere. Like any other racial. Or tell me where Cannibalize, Haymaker, Rocket Jump, Blood Fury, War Stomp, Escape Artist or literally any other active racial is 'really good' to the point that they single handedly cheese end-game content.
    It took you a while but you finally, thankfully, realized Shadowmeld only matters in MDI and it's usage inside retail wow is limited, thank you.
    As to all the other points you're making, it's got nothing to do with this, and I don't have a point with Shadowmeld in MDI at all, if you watch MDI you will also see that, yes it's good, but also very easy to fck up, as multiple times, less competent people mess it up and either die or wipe the grp due to not properly using Shadowmeld.

    As to raids, well you obviously don't get how big the raiding scene is and the money in it now, more and more top guilds are sponsored, literally earning more and more money on this, and the "world first (inset new raid tier)", and since there's continously new raid tiers, it's an endless cycle, and horde racials, however you wanna argue it, have more power and more impact on the raiding scene and current wow.

    And about rogues, well shit, they have 3 speccs, there's 36 speccs in the entire game, newsflash, they can't all be balanced, and yes, poor subt rogue, when's the last time you've seen a feral kitty in any kind of competetive scene, and I mean regularly, not 1 out of a 1000.

    And good for you, doing +10 keys and heroic raids, not to burst your bubble, but why does racials in the game even matter to you at that level of play? Until +15, numbers are hardly of matter, it's about mechanics and execution, yeah numbers slowly matter at 13+, but, hardly.
    Get voice, somewhat competent people and boom, clearing +10 timed is a children's walk, can be done with people around 400ilvl and lower.

    And to return to it, yes Shadowmeld is strong in MDI, but not to the point it has to be taken, and it doesn't affect retail wow at all, just entertainement value, and I like to see, especially cause it's not foolproof, many ppl fck it up!

  2. #122
    what? breaking several end-of-tier boss-fights wasn't enough?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nadiru View Post
    If that's really the case, I would expect further kneecaps to Horde racials.
    good, they've been overpowered since vanilla.

  3. #123
    Sounds like OP is bored of Classic already. Until an ability is abused by a large number of people it is fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  4. #124
    It's not balanced but its niche as fuck so who really cares?

    Belf wasn't really niche, it was useful almost anywhere in a dungeon for a blanket aoe silence.

  5. #125
    Shadowmeld is only OP if you have 5 of them in a group and used maybe 2 or 3 times in a 20 min dungeon run, compared to Arcane Torrent (Legion verison) being OP on a single character, only getting more OP the more you had them. And usable in most dungeons pretty much on CD.

  6. #126
    I have never had shadowmeld actually work to drop aggro, it comes back the second the meld ends unless the mobs reset.

    Yeah you could sync all 5 nelves at the exact same time, but that seems about as likely as actually being able to use my damned AoE stealth ability to skip even one trash pack literally ever because there's always THAT GUY in the back that runs out of it, you know who you are.

    Even with a macro that /yells "STAND IN THE DAMNED CIRCLE" it still happens...

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    Arcane torrent is barely nerfed at all.
    Just instead of an AoE silence with mana recovery you have an AoE dispell with mana recovery.
    Disagree. As someone who's mained a Belf paladin since BC and had a Belf rogue for almost as long, I found that AT as a silence was far more useful than AT as a dispel. At least, from a PvE perspective. As a tank, I loved having an extra means to get casters to group up.

    Going from silence to dispel was, imo, a massive nerf for PvE.

  8. #128
    If shadowmeld was so broken how come most of these people in MDI play horde on the live servers? Clearly it doesn't stop horde from doing M+ at the highest levels. I couldn't care less about some stupid M+ tournament. If its broken in that garbage then just disable racials for it ffs.
    No collusion. No obstruction.

  9. #129
    Curse those Alliance players getting a PVE advantage OmegaLUL

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    I don't really give a shit because I rarely watch MDI's anyway, but if you refuse to acknowledge that it is kind of dumb that pretty much every run is full NE (that it is that imbalanced that there really isn't even a choice to be made), then I don't know what to tell you. I feel like you're trying to be dense.
    I've said time and time again, in this thread alone, that Racials should be disabled in the MDI.

    When it's an official, professional tournament, everyone should be on as equal a footing as possible.



    I just don't think it actually matters outside of the MDI. Keystones aren't competitive, and any team of any race can complete them on time. So who gives a crap?

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Yunaqt View Post
    Curse those Alliance players getting a PVE advantage OmegaLUL
    Stop using twitch-chat talk and learn how to write correctly.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorotia View Post
    The really funny thing is people actually think there are groups of players playing Nelves for anything other than these competitions, like they'd actually give up their superior racials or pay for constant race changes just to finish their M+'s a little faster.
    I play WoW for pushing high keys, and I would instantly rerrol to NE from my BE if I didn’t have to change the faction for that. But i’m tied to the community already, to my m+ team and my raiding team. But i’m so envious when I watch other teams on twitch who are alliance and who can do skips that our team can’t only because we don’t have shadowmeld at least on healer. We have have to sacrifice the battlerez for similar skips and that means we don’t have it later, and that might cost us the whole key.
    I REALLY wish thay either nerf it somehow, or maybe m+ and raiding are going to be cross-faction in the next expansion, so I could pick shadowmeld over AT without needing to abandon my friends first.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Mintra View Post
    I play WoW for pushing high keys, and I would instantly rerrol to NE from my BE if I didn’t have to change the faction for that. But i’m tied to the community already, to my m+ team and my raiding team. But i’m so envious when I watch other teams on twitch who are alliance and who can do skips that our team can’t only because we don’t have shadowmeld at least on healer. We have have to sacrifice the battlerez for similar skips and that means we don’t have it later, and that might cost us the whole key.
    I REALLY wish thay either nerf it somehow, or maybe m+ and raiding are going to be cross-faction in the next expansion, so I could pick shadowmeld over AT without needing to abandon my friends first.
    Well if you'd throw away good racials just to make M+ go a little faster that is up to you, either you're nuts or you're just saying that because you have a vendetta...

    More along the lines of a vendetta I'm guessing because people have suggested ways they could fix this for M+ so they cant's skip all of that yet people still yell NERF NERF NERF.
    Hope, the greatest power of all!

    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorotia View Post
    Well if you'd throw away good racials just to make M+ go a little faster that is up to you, either you're nuts or you're just saying that because you have a vendetta...

    More along the lines of a vendetta I'm guessing because people have suggested ways they could fix this for M+ so they cant's skip all of that yet people still yell NERF NERF NERF.
    M+ is about pushing high keys and beating timers. If shadowmeld let's you beat a key faster than "good racials", that means that for m+ meld is a *better* racial than the "good" ones.

    And it would help if nearly every suggested way to fix meld for m+ wasn't called a Nerf by people like you and most of the nelf players.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Imurbandaid View Post
    Yes, I forgot everyone mained Belf outside of MDI when AT was deemed too OP. It being OP and unfair in a professional invitational makes it even worse. Perfectly balanced, esport ready.
    What is this bullshit? WoW will never be perfectly balanced, the whole reason class design feels garbage is because they’ve attempted too heavily to focus on perfectly balancing the game and in their attempt to create diversity they actually homogenized a lot of classes.

    Maybe they shouldn’t design an entire dungeon that’s basically comprised of just trash? The latter half of ML is probably the worst experience I’ve had in dungeons in recent years, there’s way too much clumped together and they are very annoying to deal with.

    Regardless, if it wasn’t for shadowmeld you’d probably see even more rogues honestly which I personally don’t wanna see.

    Wish people would stop calling for every aspect of the game to get nerfed because of the MDI. Making an mmorpg into an esport was an interesting idea but I don’t really like how it’s turned out overall especially with the effect it’s had on dungeons. It also seems like interest has been down quite a bit for this MDI. Regardless I really hope they don’t run around nerfing the game to attempt to make the MDI better.
    Last edited by Taeldorian; 2019-09-10 at 03:07 PM.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    M+ is about pushing high keys and beating timers. If shadowmeld let's you beat a key faster than "good racials", that means that for m+ meld is a *better* racial than the "good" ones.

    And it would help if nearly every suggested way to fix meld for m+ wasn't called a Nerf by people like you and most of the nelf players.
    All I've seen is nerf it nerf it.

    They could put in some kind of detection or mechanic...but no people want it nerfed as a vendetta for Arcane Torrent.
    Hope, the greatest power of all!

    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  17. #137
    I was thinking about this thread when I did a Tol Dagor with Beguiling this week. Twice in this run we had the Tide girl with the Seaspeaker. What was the worst pull of the dungeon would have been trivial having one BE. I cannot think of any other racial that have this impact in the game.
    Solus in hostes ruit et patriam servavit.

    "Sims again? I thought we learned last time." - Ornyx

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Testodruid View Post
    Stop using twitch-chat talk and learn how to write correctly.
    Sure thing granddad, great chat.

  19. #139
    100% of MDI class that can be NE, is NE.

    Enjoy it while it lasts.

  20. #140
    BE racials are crap, all my BE are benched PVP wise

    i never need the extra energy, mana, or focus. since WOTLK my mage has really never had any mana issues, hunter/rogue using arcane torrent for resource adds a GCD i can't afford to happen, and not enough focus/energy to matter. arcane torrent is not on my bars/macro'd or keyed for any of my BE since last nerf. not for flaming pissed off at blizzard reasons, honestly i have no use for the racial, stays in spell book

    go into PVP, when a player is stacked with buffs, removing one doesn't matter.

    i play alliance too, NE, HU, Gnome at max level. NE SM imo is rather gamebreaking, its insanely fun playing NE, doing double stun openers that no other druid race can do, or racial can make up for. when you hang at goldshire you will find alot of ally races not wanting to duel NE, or QQing about NE SM after a loss when it was evident SM was the deciding factor
    Last edited by pinkz; 2019-09-13 at 01:21 AM.

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