"No changes/QOL" = in denial.

[Heartbreaker]

...those statements are the same thing

"""""""""direct contradiction"""""""""""" ?

Also thanks for taking 1 sentence out of context and ignoring the entire rest of my post, rofl

Nope. Despite and because mean opposite things.

[Granyala]

= Acting as if no one ever wanted changes back in 2004/05. Acting as if it were acceptable for Blizzard to leave hybrid classes incredibly weak compared to pures/semi-pures.

Well, the whole point was to recreate the 1.x experience as best as they could, so people like me, who didn't have DSL until 2007 can experience the way WoW was back then.
So yes: no changes makes sense.

[jstnw89]

Wait for TBC OP

[Lucetia]

i used to think no changes would be the way to go, that the game itself would foster community at least a little bit like back then. but the attitude in classic is a lot more BFA than it is vanilla.

So now i'm like, this dev team has demonstrated that they know what they are doing, so go ahead and make changes focused on improving the community aspects of the game.

As I was telling a friend earlier. It's not that the attitude in classic is like BFA. It's that the attitude with gamers overall (for every game) changed. Classic only felt like it had a community because it was new and MMORPG's that were decent was a wild idea. As time evolved with games and such the attitudes changed. People Classic had this "special community". It never did. It wasn't Classic. It was just that time period with games in general and nothing we do will ever get it back unless the models for all games change overall.

[last1214]

@Moor Shadows: It sounds to me like you dont really want to play "classic." You want to paly some off brand version of it, and granted, so do I. The problem is, you and I will disagree about what should change, and what should stay. Changing very little keeps most people happy.

[Specialka]

As someone else pointed out, this is simply naive thinking. Do you really think the people who developed BfA are going to replicate Vanilla as much as possible? If you do, please send a private message as I have a number of lovely bridges for sale around the country.

BC was the expansion that improved upon Vanilla while keeping the vast majority of the experience intact. Wrath was already deviating too much (hence, no further growth, statistically, in subs), and Cata took the trend downhill. Most of it was because of QoL improvements.

Take a hard look at BfA. That is what the constant QoL improvements got us to. Retail WoW is just an MMO...it isn't an RPG anymore. It is trying to be some hybrid Action MMO pseudo-RPG...and it fails miserably. While Legion was tolerable by virtue of Blizz at least putting in pretty good effort for that expansion, it was still a pale candle next to Wrath, much less BC.

Sorry, but only a fool would trust the current crew at Blizz to "improve" Vanilla without destroying it.

Nothing can grow undefinitely. And, around 2010, mmos stopped being the mainstream game.

[forrestgimp]

= Acting as if no one ever wanted changes back in 2004/05. Acting as if it were acceptable for Blizzard to leave hybrid classes incredibly weak compared to pures/semi-pures.

No, hybrid classes being weaker in their current state is *not* good game design - not in any reasonable way. They waited an entire Xpac to bring them up to a reasonable standard. That sucks. As long as a change is done "in the spirit of Vanilla" (to burrow a phrase from the Catholic Church) then it shouldn't be controversial. And yeah, I acknowledge that Blizzard aren't Jagex in terms of their skills at communicating with the needs/wants of their player-base. I understand if someone is worried about any potential QOL changes.

RSC is one of the most successful MMO's of all time, and it's a reboot of past game version. They have still made changes, "in the spirit of 2007". This utopia nonsense over no-change has got to stop, because trust me when I say this: Classic will not maintain its current level of popularity if it doesn't.

Want the vanilla experience replicated as much as possible in Classic? Accept calls for QoL changes.

(At any rate, what do you even want? To keep playing classic as it is right now for years? Lol)

So you are playing a hybrid and getting pumped and you want changes. lol

[Annelie]

People wanted changes, and they got changes, it is called retail WoW.

[Seranthor]

= Acting as if no one ever wanted changes back in 2004/05. Acting as if it were acceptable for Blizzard to leave hybrid classes incredibly weak compared to pures/semi-pures.

No, hybrid classes being weaker in their current state is *not* good game design - not in any reasonable way. They waited an entire Xpac to bring them up to a reasonable standard. That sucks. As long as a change is done "in the spirit of Vanilla" (to burrow a phrase from the Catholic Church) then it shouldn't be controversial. And yeah, I acknowledge that Blizzard aren't Jagex in terms of their skills at communicating with the needs/wants of their player-base. I understand if someone is worried about any potential QOL changes.

RSC is one of the most successful MMO's of all time, and it's a reboot of past game version. They have still made changes, "in the spirit of 2007". This utopia nonsense over no-change has got to stop, because trust me when I say this: Classic will not maintain its current level of popularity if it doesn't.

Want the vanilla experience replicated as much as possible in Classic? Accept calls for QoL changes.

(At any rate, what do you even want? To keep playing classic as it is right now for years? Lol)

So you want to replicate vanilla by infusing it with chocolate, strawberry and whatever other abominative flavor you can dream up? No.

You wanted vanilla, now shut up and eat it.

'classic will not maintain its current level of popularity if it doesn't'

Classic is that retro restaurant that everyone claims is so good... and some go and try and and love it... and some go and try it and say its meh... and some go and try it and hate it... Dont like it? Dont go back... It really is THAT simple.

[SirCowdog]

As I was telling a friend earlier. It's not that the attitude in classic is like BFA. It's that the attitude with gamers overall (for every game) changed. Classic only felt like it had a community because it was new and MMORPG's that were decent was a wild idea. As time evolved with games and such the attitudes changed. People Classic had this "special community". It never did. It wasn't Classic. It was just that time period with games in general and nothing we do will ever get it back unless the models for all games change overall.

I think there is some value to be had in molding the direction of gamers when it comes to community. Things like keeping Classic servers limited to a single server, with no paid boosts and no xmog, for example, can direct the attention of gamers towards certain goals. Other changes, like the limit of finding groups via chat channels, doesn't seem to serve much of a purpose beyond raw nostalgia.

I think that there's some decent amount of value to be had in milking that nostalgia for a certain amount of time. But at some point(very quickly, IMO) that nostalgia will evaporate and Blizzard will have to start deciding if it's more worth it to continue catering to people who want a stone-age experience, or to start making concessions to bring the Vanilla content more up to speed to match modern communities.

Personally I think they should do both by having a handful of servers locked in time for those who want that. But also having "unlocked" servers where players are allowed a more modern take on older content.

IMO there's no reason not to have our cake and eat it too.

[Eggroll]

But, but,... the beauty of Vanilla is exactly it's imperfection and imbalance...

[Charge me Doctor]

It's actually quite funny to me to hear those "No QOL changes!" also googling addons that show you quests in game on a map.

[Bapestar]

As I was telling a friend earlier. It's not that the attitude in classic is like BFA. It's that the attitude with gamers overall (for every game) changed. Classic only felt like it had a community because it was new and MMORPG's that were decent was a wild idea. As time evolved with games and such the attitudes changed. People Classic had this "special community". It never did. It wasn't Classic. It was just that time period with games in general and nothing we do will ever get it back unless the models for all games change overall.

This is only partly true. There definitely is more interaction and sense of community in Classic atm. Of course its not as deep as when the game was fresh and new. But to say "Classic only felt like it had a community because it was new", is kinda bullshit.

[Bumkin]

= Acting as if no one ever wanted changes back in 2004/05. Acting as if it were acceptable for Blizzard to leave hybrid classes incredibly weak compared to pures/semi-pures.

No, hybrid classes being weaker in their current state is *not* good game design - not in any reasonable way. They waited an entire Xpac to bring them up to a reasonable standard. That sucks. As long as a change is done "in the spirit of Vanilla" (to burrow a phrase from the Catholic Church) then it shouldn't be controversial. And yeah, I acknowledge that Blizzard aren't Jagex in terms of their skills at communicating with the needs/wants of their player-base. I understand if someone is worried about any potential QOL changes.

RSC is one of the most successful MMO's of all time, and it's a reboot of past game version. They have still made changes, "in the spirit of 2007". This utopia nonsense over no-change has got to stop, because trust me when I say this: Classic will not maintain its current level of popularity if it doesn't.

Want the vanilla experience replicated as much as possible in Classic? Accept calls for QoL changes.

(At any rate, what do you even want? To keep playing classic as it is right now for years? Lol)

it wouldnt be classic then, its like saying mcdonalds should start selling steaks to become better, vanilla is vanilla and people want to play vanilla, how hard can it be to understand

[Vilendor]

= Acting as if no one ever wanted changes back in 2004/05. Acting as if it were acceptable for Blizzard to leave hybrid classes incredibly weak compared to pures/semi-pures.

No, hybrid classes being weaker in their current state is *not* good game design - not in any reasonable way. They waited an entire Xpac to bring them up to a reasonable standard. That sucks. As long as a change is done "in the spirit of Vanilla" (to burrow a phrase from the Catholic Church) then it shouldn't be controversial. And yeah, I acknowledge that Blizzard aren't Jagex in terms of their skills at communicating with the needs/wants of their player-base. I understand if someone is worried about any potential QOL changes.

RSC is one of the most successful MMO's of all time, and it's a reboot of past game version. They have still made changes, "in the spirit of 2007". This utopia nonsense over no-change has got to stop, because trust me when I say this: Classic will not maintain its current level of popularity if it doesn't.

Want the vanilla experience replicated as much as possible in Classic? Accept calls for QoL changes.

(At any rate, what do you even want? To keep playing classic as it is right now for years? Lol)

Acting as the goal of Classic isn't to be a carbon copy of the original so people can play and experience the original.
Acting as you just want a new time travel expansion with some/all of the retail changes.

[Aradur]

It's actually quite funny to me to hear those "No QOL changes!" also googling addons that show you quests in game on a map.

Classic-Fanbois trying to be the "TRUE PLAYAZ" in a nutshell.

[Gaidax]

It's not about "denial" or shit like that - people asked for Vanilla experience and Blizzard rightfully does its best to deliver just that.

If Blizz would go ahead and start pushing changes before release, you'd end up with outcry about how this is not the real thing, but a cheap fake pushed by Actiblizz corporate fiends and so on.

It is important that there will be no changes, because this was the thing that sold. Later down the road they could open some sort of Classic+ servers with changes, but they clearly have to be authentic, lest the whole thing fails.

[Vorkreist]

Another case of confusion easily cured by #GOBACKTOBFA

[DechCJC]

The #NoChanges crowd will sway eventually if they keep playing. The nostalgia will wear off and people will either quit or ask for changes, it's bound to happen. Regardless of what you think of retail WoW, over the years there has been many changes that made sense. Even straight into TBC there were a few changes that made everything objectively better with 0 downside.

You say no changes, yet the main menu has been totally revamped to match live, the character creation screen has been tweaked so that we can move characters or even restore them and there's more options for higher-end graphics. These are good changes that nobody's complaining about. People say that the goal of classic was to simply recreate the original experience; Nobody is asking for the experience to be significantly altered, some people just want some basic functionality added to the game that has no reason not to be there so that they can enjoy vanilla for the next few years or whatever.

Now, down the line I am totally up for Classic+ in the same way that OSRS deals with it. Once Naxx is cleared I don't see why we can't change it, I think it's a foolish missed opportunity not to. Classic is fun but it has a lot of glaring flaws, why can't we keep the cap at 60 and introduce new content that works around how the game plays in say, 3 years when everyone's burned out? I believe it's necessary.

A few sensible changes that I would make right now at the top of my head:

- Enemy health.
- Debuff timers.
- Focusing people being possible. Maybe.
- Named mob respawns increased where it's dire, nobody should have to wait 30 minutes for one mob.
- Auction house cleaned up.
- Enemy cast bars.

I know that a lot of these can be solved with addons, but they shouldn't be needed and they're also not totally reliable. An example change that I would make in 3 years time or so would be to increase or remove the debuff limit and re-tweak bosses to make up for it, it's bad gameplay. Or perhaps adding quests to zones that just lack them because they were unfinished, dustwallow marsh for example got an entirely new hub in TBC to make up for the lack of reason to go there.

[VincentWolf]

Vanilla had done a lot of things wrong, I'm all up for some QoL. Dual spec is a must.