what classes could be combined to simplify the game

[Dundebuns]

I think they need to add a spec or redo a spec for each class, actually, so each class can at least tank or heal.

[This One Time At Bandcamp]

On the contrary, I think they should introduce more classes - or remove all classes and build a new "build-your-own"-style of talent tree..

[BeepBoo]

Simply put; the game is becoming bloated in classes and specs and needs to be simplified so the cost of time balancing the game is improved and a new and more fun class and/or spec can be added down the road. what would be the classes to combine with the result that at least 1 or 2 specs would be removed from the total after the combination?.

No, go fuck yourself. The game is simple as it is. Every change blizzard has done "to make it easier for us to balance!!!!111!1!1ONE!1" Has resulted in... absolutely no change to their abhorrent balance. Know what NEEDS to happen for them to actually successfully balance things?

They need to dedicate more than one afternoon from one intern.
They need to release more than one "light tuning" patch every tier.
They need to analyze their own shit properly before releasing said tiers (hello AZ traits).

Blizzard needs to treat balance like the prime citizen it should be, not the red headed step child it is right now.
Stop buying their excuses. They have more money and resources at their disposal than any other MMO dev. They can fucking afford to spend time on balancing. They just don't want to, and no amount of dumbing down will fix that.

They fucking went so far as to have the ultimate in EZ tuning knobs: THEY HAD FUCKING PVP TEMPLATES. 100% control at all times. Perfectly predictable outcomes. And they STILL were too lazy to make it happen. Like what le actual fuck.

[Endris]

Simply put; the game is becoming bloated in classes and specs and needs to be simplified so the cost of time balancing the game is improved and a new and more fun class and/or spec can be added down the road. what would be the classes to combine with the result that at least 1 or 2 specs would be removed from the total after the combination?.

Hi Ion, how's work treating you?

[Triceron]

I think they need to add a spec or redo a spec for each class, actually, so each class can at least tank or heal.

Yeah but then you wouldn't have any class uniqueness any more if you did that. Considering Blizzard has to balance it all, this would be the worst form of homogenization.

[Ielenia]

It means after money has been put down to play, because money doesn't get paid in poker until bets are being made, and bets can't be made unless you're in the middle of a hand.

If my subscription is active, I'm "playing".

Stop.

You stop. You're insisting on your error, after I explained the issue.

A casino does not work like a game subscription. You don't pay to enter a casino and then play all the games for as many times as you want for as long as you want during that month. You pay for each and every game you play. Your comparison would only work if, in WoW, you had to pay every time you entered each and every dungeon, and each and every raid, and wanted to do each and every quest, and pay for each and every level you gain.

If you're going to compare WoW's services to anything, then compare it to things that are similar, i.e., other subscription services.

No, it's not, because feedback other than "redo the class" exists... You realize this, right?

I never said they don't. I'm just saying that, in the context of what you're complaining about here ("massive" changes to classes), it is pointless, because they're irrelevant to the point.

Small incremental changes over time (what I've been saying I want this entire time) is the opposite of "redo the class" and it still requires and benefits from feedback on changes. You are being obtuse.

Same as above. They're pointless in the context of this discussion because they don't pertain to your complaints about how Blizzard treats class design.

Yes, I do, you won't completely break something with small changes the overwhelming majority of the time, and when you do, it was a small change, so it's easier to fix.

The opposite is also true, though. It won't also completely fix anything with just small changes.

Yes, for the last 50% of the expansion, for the other 50% it's a trainwreck. They are relatively balanced now, they sure as fuck weren't when the expansion launched. We shouldn't have to deal with classes being broken for half of nearly every expansion while they iron out the bullshit that should have been ironed out during beta.

So, through "small and incrementing changes", you'd rather stay through an entire expansion with "broken classes" so you could hopefully get "less broken classes" in the next expansion?

[Schattenlied]

You stop.

No, I meant what I said, stop trying to put words in my mouth.

I never said they don't. I'm just saying that, in the context of what you're complaining about here ("massive" changes to classes), it is pointless, because they're irrelevant to the point.

No, it's not irrelevant to the point, because what I'm saying is that those massive changes shouldn't be happening at all.

The opposite is also true, though. It won't also completely fix anything with just small changes.

Yes, you will, over time.

So, through "small and incrementing changes", you'd rather stay through an entire expansion with "broken classes" so you could hopefully get "less broken classes" in the next expansion?

Broken classes happen because of massive, abrupt changes... If they switched to a small changes only system right now, the classes would already be in a non-broken state and just keep getting better instead of getting reset and being broken again.


They use both, currently... They do a massive change when they "revamp" the classes like they did in Legion (and then they broke them again by removing artifacts in BFA, but that's a separate issue), and then they do small changes to fix them over the course of the expansion... If they just stopped doing the massive changes part, we would rarely, if ever, again end up in a state where they are broken, because they would cease rebuilding them from the ground up with massive flaws.

[CrawlFromThePit]

Simply put; the game is becoming bloated in classes and specs and needs to be simplified so the cost of time balancing the game is improved and a new and more fun class and/or spec can be added down the road. what would be the classes to combine with the result that at least 1 or 2 specs would be removed from the total after the combination?.

Classes just need to become classes again. A paladin should have to dps heal and tank shit at the same time, use all the skills in their toolbox. A mage should throw out every element they have, not be one dimensional, etc. Specs should be options given to the player to boost what they enjoy the most, not be a choice that turns off 2/3 of the class they picked.

[Ielenia]

No, I meant what I said, stop trying to put words in my mouth.

I did not put words in your mouth. I explained how your example doesn't work, and how it affects the actual implication of your explanation.

No, it's not irrelevant to the point, because what I'm saying is that those massive changes shouldn't be happening at all.

Why? Because you don't like them? Especially since, according to you, said "massive changes" are working as intended, bringing classes to balance.

Yes, you will, over time.

"Time" is not an infinite resource.

Broken classes happen because of massive, abrupt changes...

Are you sure? Because there are many, many, many arguments to be made about Vanilla classes being "broken" considering tanking specs for paladins and druids were basically "dead in the water", warlocks being 90% shadowbolt, mages 90% frostbolt. Hyperbolic examples, I know, but they serve to illustrate the point.

They use both, currently... They do a massive change when they "revamp" the classes like they did in Legion (and then they broke them again by removing artifacts in BFA, but that's a separate issue), and then they do small changes to fix them over the course of the expansion... If they just stopped doing the massive changes part, we would rarely, if ever, again end up in a state where they are broken, because they would cease rebuilding them from the ground up with massive flaws.

And we would end up with people getting bored with the classes in WoW because they never change. Warlocks would have never gotten the metamorphosis ability, and the changes to the hunter's Survival spec pissed off a lot of people, but also pleased a lot of people.

The best course of action is always to innovate. There are chances you miss the mark, but it helps keep things fresh and interest high. If a class changes, there's the chance someone will try that class to experience the changes.

[melodramocracy]

Close this thread.

Better yet, you can stop reading it.


As for the OP, the game is broken down into physical damage, light / holy, dark /fel, and nature / arcane damage. Not a ton of overlap here really, so it'd be fairly interesting to split 'classes' into one of these 4 or 5 categories, and then allow players to mix and match specs as they see fit.

Rogue - warrior - hunter
DK - Warlock - Demon Hunter - Shadow Priest
Holy Priest - Paladin
Shaman - Druid - Mage

Even better would be throwing abilities from each classification into a pool, and letting players pick and choose what they want based on a points system (ala old Asheron's Call). A nightmare for PvP, but eh.

This game is too far along for that sort of revamp however.

[Schattenlied]

I did not put words in your mouth. I explained how your example doesn't work, and how it affects the actual implication of your explanation.

Wrong.

Especially since, according to you, said "massive changes" are working as intended, bringing classes to balance.

No, they aren't, and I explained that in the post you just quoted, the massive changes only ever break shit, the classes then remain broken for half an expansion while they make small changes to eventually fix them, and then they invalidate all the time hard work that went into fixing them by resetting it all again.

The small changes are what's bringing the classes to balance, the massive changes are what is breaking them.

"Time" is not an infinite resource.

You're right, which is why wasting time by hitting the reset button every other expansion, effectively rendering all the time they spent balancing the classes over the previous couple years is a stupid fucking idea... It is beyond my comprehension how you can possibly think that redesigning the classes from scratch every couple years, and then having to fix all the broken shit that inevitably comes with the redesigns is somehow a better use of time, when it is in fact an infinite loop of time wasting.

Are you sure? Because there are many, many, many arguments to be made about Vanilla classes being "broken" considering tanking specs for paladins and druids were basically "dead in the water", warlocks being 90% shadowbolt, mages 90% frostbolt. Hyperbolic examples, I know, but they serve to illustrate the point.

Yes, because in vanilla, the classes had just been created from scratch... All that shit started slowly getting fixed and was eventually remedied by the time WotLK came around (and in fact ALL of that except for Paladin tanking was fixed in TBC, and even then Paladins were ok tanks in TBC), without any massive changes.

It's like you aren't even listening.

And we would end up with people getting bored with the classes in WoW because they never change.

I disagree, and like I just said, they would be changing, just slowly rather than abruptly being redesigned from scratch. No one felt the classes were getting stale from vanilla-wrath, and they were going by the design philosophy I am suggesting here, smaller changes over time, rather than all at once abrupt redesigns.

Warlocks would have never gotten the metamorphosis ability

Wrong, that came in as part of WotLK, it was not a part of a total overhaul of the class, it was simply their new end of tree talent.

and the changes to the hunter's Survival spec pissed off a lot of people, but also pleased a lot of people.

Could have just been a new 4th spec, which would have then been slowly iterated on and then brought in line with the others, and as an added bonus it wouldn't have pissed off the people who liked the old survival.

The best course of action is always to innovate. There are chances you miss the mark, but it helps keep things fresh and interest high. If a class changes, there's the chance someone will try that class to experience the changes.

None of that requires doing an abrupt reset of everything, "innovation" doesn't require wiping the slate clean, there was plenty of innovation between vanilla and the end of WotLK, all was done without total overhauls.

And regardless of that, they can still do "major" innovation by, you know, making new classes and specs, rather than massively altering old ones. Instead of overhauling the existing specs, maybe make some new ones, I would greatly prefer that... It's not like there's some set in stone rule dictating that each class must have only 3 specs... Give Paladins a ranged spec (either a true shockadin spec, or a ranged weapon spec), give Mages that Time Mage healing spec people have been wishing for for a while, shit like that.

Keep the game fresh by adding new things rather than taking old things away... When a spec gets to the point where adding more new stuff would be too much "bloat", just move to making tweaks here and there, and put the remaining effort towards making entirely new specs.

[UnluckyAmateur]

Personally I'd merge

Priest - Mage - Warlock

Warrior - Paladin - Death Knight

Rogue - Demon hunter - Hunter

Shaman - Monk


Instead bringing it down to like 3-4 classes with tons of specs and adding more when a new expansion comes out like Blade master (rogues), tinkerer (hunters), Necromancer (mage), etc.

[Shadowferal]

I'm reminded of a certain quest; Round 4: The P.U.G.

Defeat Hackiss, Healiss and Tankiss.
Defeat Hackiss
Defeat Healiss
Defeat Tankiss

[Ielenia]

Wrong.

If you want to be wrong, if you want to insist on your mistake, then be my guest. I've already explained it to you. Your comparison fails on a fundamental level because you're comparing two activities with fundamentally different monetization strategies.

No, they aren't, and I explained that in the post you just quoted, the massive changes only ever break shit, the classes then remain broken for half an expansion while they make small changes to eventually fix them, and then they invalidate all the time hard work that went into fixing them by resetting it all again.

Your usage of hyperbole is not helping your argument any. Classes aren't anywhere as bad as you make them to be at the beginning of an expansion. "Broken". The only really "broken" class that I can think of is the death knights, at their implementation, as they were tanks that did more DPS than most dps specs, and were dps that could tank better than most tank specs.

You're right, which is why wasting time by hitting the reset button every other expansion,

It's not a waste of time. World of Warcraft is a game that is soon to be over fifteen years old. Staying "mostly the same with only small changes" is not an option if a game wants to stay relevant. And with how technology quickly evolves and with how so many games are released each year, it becomes basically a necessity.

Anecdotal evidence, I know, but I'm eager to find out how classes will change next expansion, especially considering Ion's comments about his admission that they went "too far" with spec identity in Legion to the point of basically forsaking class identity. Also: rogue and hunter were never classes that interested me, but the changes to Outlaw and Survival, respectively, I'm enjoying how those specs play.

Yes, because in vanilla, the classes had just been created from scratch... All that shit started slowly getting fixed and was eventually remedied by the time WotLK came around (and in fact ALL of that except for Paladin tanking was fixed in TBC, and even then Paladins were ok tanks in TBC), without any massive changes.

It's like you aren't even listening.

And they would remain "broken" for a long, long time if all Blizzard did was "small changes".

I disagree, and like I just said, they would be changing, just slowly rather than abruptly being redesigned from scratch.

Because they didn't have time to get bored. And again, changing slowly over time does not work because time is not an unlimited resource.

Wrong, that came in as part of WotLK, it was not a part of a total overhaul of the class, it was simply their new end of tree talent.

I'm not wrong, because I never claimed the ability did not come with Wrath. I'm saying they would never have gained the ability because it changes a lot about how the spec is played.

Could have just been a new 4th spec, which would have then been slowly iterated on and then brought in line with the others, and as an added bonus it wouldn't have pissed off the people who liked the old survival.

Oh yeah. Give only the hunters a new 4th spec. That would please a lot of people, and certainly wouldn't piss off anyone who have been asking for a fourth spec to their preferred classes, or worse, the DH players who have been asking for a third spec for their class. Yeah. Much simpler and easier.

None of that requires doing an abrupt reset of everything, "innovation" doesn't require wiping the slate clean, there was plenty of innovation between vanilla and the end of WotLK, all was done without total overhauls.

And regardless of that, they can still do "major" innovation by, you know, making new classes and specs, rather than massively altering old ones. Instead of overhauling the existing specs, maybe make some new ones, I would greatly prefer that... It's not like there's some set in stone rule dictating that each class must have only 3 specs... Give Paladins a ranged spec (either a true shockadin spec, or a ranged weapon spec), give Mages that Time Mage healing spec people have been wishing for for a while, shit like that.

Keep the game fresh by adding new things rather than taking old things away... When a spec gets to the point where adding more new stuff would be too much "bloat", just move to making tweaks here and there, and put the remaining effort towards making entirely new specs.

It's like you don't understand how things work, here. Are you telling me you're the kind of guy that never even tried to reorganize your home to give it a different air? Never thought about painting the walls a different color? Moving to another home? Are you the kind of guy who thinks the most one should do to redecorate is to just move the couch five inches to the side?

Big changes like what Blizzard does to the classes are necessary. And even from Legion to BfA the changes were rather small, as it just basically kept how classes worked in Legion, with rather minimal changes.

[Schattenlied]

Classes aren't anywhere as bad as you make them to be at the beginning of an expansion. "Broken".

Yeah, they are.

It's not a waste of time.

Yes, it is.

Anecdotal evidence, I know, but I'm eager to find out how classes will change next expansion, especially considering Ion's comments about his admission that they went "too far" with spec identity in Legion to the point of basically forsaking class identity.

The only reason I'm even curious about what they will do is because of how horrifically they fucked up last time, and that's mostly because I'm worried they are just going to fuck it up even more.

Also: rogue and hunter were never classes that interested me, but the changes to Outlaw and Survival, respectively, I'm enjoying how those specs play.

Both could have have been new specs.

And they would remain "broken" for a long, long time if all Blizzard did was "small changes".

I literally told you that this was untrue in the passage you just quoted.

ALL they did was small changes from vanilla to the end of WotLK... Nothing but Paladin tanks were remotely broken by the time TBC launched, and only Death Knights were broken when Wrath launched, and they were fixed by the end of it.

Because they didn't have time to get bored. And again, changing slowly over time does not work because time is not an unlimited resource.

You really going to argue this in a circle again?

How much time do you think it takes to redesign a class from scratch?

A fuckload.

Now take that same time, and spread it out.

Not adding any time, just not spending it all at once.

And again, yeah, time is not an unlimited resource, WHICH IS WHY THEY SHOULD NOT BE THROWING AWAY THE WORK THEY JUST DID EVERY COUPLE YEARS. Time is a limited resource, throwing it away is a waste of that resource.

I'm not wrong, because I never claimed the ability did not come with Wrath. I'm saying they would never have gained the ability because it changes a lot about how the spec is played.

It wasn't a big change... Adding one ability is not a big change, no matter how much it "changes how the spec plays" because it's one ability, if it's introduction breaks something you already know that one new ability is the problem and can easily fix it by tweaking that one ability.

In terms of development, it's small.

Oh yeah. Give only the hunters a new 4th spec. That would please a lot of people, and certainly wouldn't piss off anyone who have been asking for a fourth spec to their preferred classes, or worse, the DH players who have been asking for a third spec for their class. Yeah. Much simpler and easier.

Literally said, in this same post, that they should make more specs for other classes too. Stop being obtuse.

It's like you don't understand how things work, here. Are you telling me you're the kind of guy that never even tried to reorganize your home to give it a different air? Never thought about painting the walls a different color? Moving to another home? Are you the kind of guy who thinks the most one should do to redecorate is to just move the couch five inches to the side?

ROFL... Small changes like I'm suggesting would be the reorganizing... What blizzard is doing ain't fuckin reorganizing, they are demolishing the house and building a new one. Small changes, like I suggest, would be the reorganizing.

Now who's "comparison fails on a fundamental level"? Fucking yours.

You're the one that doesn't get it.

Moving to another home?

That would be switching classes, which people are already free to do.

Big changes like what Blizzard does to the classes are necessary.

No, no they aren't.

They weren't necessary from vanilla-wrath, they aren't necessary now.

And even from Legion to BfA the changes were rather small, as it just basically kept how classes worked in Legion, with rather minimal changes.

Sure, if you want to call removing the artifact weapons and all their talents and abilities with them, things the class design in Legion leaned on HEVAILY small...


At this point it's obvious that it's impossible to convince you of anything, so I'm done with this conversation, arguing with you is a complete waste of my time and I won't be reading your responses from this point forward. Have a nice life.

[maulgryve]

None. Not adding any more new classes is completely sufficient.

I would love to agree with you and say to never add more, but then I look at my favorite classes to play (DH, DK, Monk) and realize that, IN MY OPINION, the game has been made better by their additions.

[kaminaris]

Yeah, they are.

No they are not, and this is not even up to discussion. The only class that could be considered broken is current fire mage because once you queue pyroblast after scorch, global cooldown animation does not trigger.

Pretty much everything else is working correctly. Just because you don't like current iterations does not mean classes are broken, and definitely does not mean majority don't like it.

[Alanar]

I always felt that Paladins and Death Knights were cut from the same cloth. Same can be said for Shaman and Death Knights. Also, Druids and Death Knights have way too many similarities, they're practically the same! /s

Idk how I got here, bit saw this and just wanted to say: this is freaking stupid. Not onky talking about this comment, but talking about this thread.

We need more customization not less.. so wth?

[Dellis0991]

There is no bloat.

[qwerty123456]

This.

But preferably just stop revamping them for no reason.


It doesn't matter how many classes there are so long as they actually take the time to work on them and keep iterating them to perfection, and if they didn't hit the fucking reset button every other expansion we'd already have well balanced, well designed classes.

Hitting the reset button is what keeps people from pulling a classic and spending 10 years perfecting the classes rotation, stats, etc.. and then Facerolling everything once they get the tactics for new bosses down.