Page 7 of 7 FirstFirst ...
5
6
7
  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Wrong.
    If you want to be wrong, if you want to insist on your mistake, then be my guest. I've already explained it to you. Your comparison fails on a fundamental level because you're comparing two activities with fundamentally different monetization strategies.

    No, they aren't, and I explained that in the post you just quoted, the massive changes only ever break shit, the classes then remain broken for half an expansion while they make small changes to eventually fix them, and then they invalidate all the time hard work that went into fixing them by resetting it all again.
    Your usage of hyperbole is not helping your argument any. Classes aren't anywhere as bad as you make them to be at the beginning of an expansion. "Broken". The only really "broken" class that I can think of is the death knights, at their implementation, as they were tanks that did more DPS than most dps specs, and were dps that could tank better than most tank specs.

    You're right, which is why wasting time by hitting the reset button every other expansion,
    It's not a waste of time. World of Warcraft is a game that is soon to be over fifteen years old. Staying "mostly the same with only small changes" is not an option if a game wants to stay relevant. And with how technology quickly evolves and with how so many games are released each year, it becomes basically a necessity.

    Anecdotal evidence, I know, but I'm eager to find out how classes will change next expansion, especially considering Ion's comments about his admission that they went "too far" with spec identity in Legion to the point of basically forsaking class identity. Also: rogue and hunter were never classes that interested me, but the changes to Outlaw and Survival, respectively, I'm enjoying how those specs play.

    Yes, because in vanilla, the classes had just been created from scratch... All that shit started slowly getting fixed and was eventually remedied by the time WotLK came around (and in fact ALL of that except for Paladin tanking was fixed in TBC, and even then Paladins were ok tanks in TBC), without any massive changes.

    It's like you aren't even listening.
    And they would remain "broken" for a long, long time if all Blizzard did was "small changes".

    I disagree, and like I just said, they would be changing, just slowly rather than abruptly being redesigned from scratch.
    Because they didn't have time to get bored. And again, changing slowly over time does not work because time is not an unlimited resource.

    Wrong, that came in as part of WotLK, it was not a part of a total overhaul of the class, it was simply their new end of tree talent.
    I'm not wrong, because I never claimed the ability did not come with Wrath. I'm saying they would never have gained the ability because it changes a lot about how the spec is played.

    Could have just been a new 4th spec, which would have then been slowly iterated on and then brought in line with the others, and as an added bonus it wouldn't have pissed off the people who liked the old survival.
    Oh yeah. Give only the hunters a new 4th spec. That would please a lot of people, and certainly wouldn't piss off anyone who have been asking for a fourth spec to their preferred classes, or worse, the DH players who have been asking for a third spec for their class. Yeah. Much simpler and easier.

    None of that requires doing an abrupt reset of everything, "innovation" doesn't require wiping the slate clean, there was plenty of innovation between vanilla and the end of WotLK, all was done without total overhauls.

    And regardless of that, they can still do "major" innovation by, you know, making new classes and specs, rather than massively altering old ones. Instead of overhauling the existing specs, maybe make some new ones, I would greatly prefer that... It's not like there's some set in stone rule dictating that each class must have only 3 specs... Give Paladins a ranged spec (either a true shockadin spec, or a ranged weapon spec), give Mages that Time Mage healing spec people have been wishing for for a while, shit like that.

    Keep the game fresh by adding new things rather than taking old things away... When a spec gets to the point where adding more new stuff would be too much "bloat", just move to making tweaks here and there, and put the remaining effort towards making entirely new specs.
    It's like you don't understand how things work, here. Are you telling me you're the kind of guy that never even tried to reorganize your home to give it a different air? Never thought about painting the walls a different color? Moving to another home? Are you the kind of guy who thinks the most one should do to redecorate is to just move the couch five inches to the side?

    Big changes like what Blizzard does to the classes are necessary. And even from Legion to BfA the changes were rather small, as it just basically kept how classes worked in Legion, with rather minimal changes.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  2. #122
    Legendary! Schattenlied's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    6,523
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Classes aren't anywhere as bad as you make them to be at the beginning of an expansion. "Broken".
    Yeah, they are.


    It's not a waste of time.
    Yes, it is.

    Anecdotal evidence, I know, but I'm eager to find out how classes will change next expansion, especially considering Ion's comments about his admission that they went "too far" with spec identity in Legion to the point of basically forsaking class identity.
    The only reason I'm even curious about what they will do is because of how horrifically they fucked up last time, and that's mostly because I'm worried they are just going to fuck it up even more.

    Also: rogue and hunter were never classes that interested me, but the changes to Outlaw and Survival, respectively, I'm enjoying how those specs play.
    Both could have have been new specs.
    And they would remain "broken" for a long, long time if all Blizzard did was "small changes".
    I literally told you that this was untrue in the passage you just quoted.

    ALL they did was small changes from vanilla to the end of WotLK... Nothing but Paladin tanks were remotely broken by the time TBC launched, and only Death Knights were broken when Wrath launched, and they were fixed by the end of it.

    Because they didn't have time to get bored. And again, changing slowly over time does not work because time is not an unlimited resource.
    You really going to argue this in a circle again?

    How much time do you think it takes to redesign a class from scratch?

    A fuckload.

    Now take that same time, and spread it out.

    Not adding any time, just not spending it all at once.

    And again, yeah, time is not an unlimited resource, WHICH IS WHY THEY SHOULD NOT BE THROWING AWAY THE WORK THEY JUST DID EVERY COUPLE YEARS. Time is a limited resource, throwing it away is a waste of that resource.

    I'm not wrong, because I never claimed the ability did not come with Wrath. I'm saying they would never have gained the ability because it changes a lot about how the spec is played.
    It wasn't a big change... Adding one ability is not a big change, no matter how much it "changes how the spec plays" because it's one ability, if it's introduction breaks something you already know that one new ability is the problem and can easily fix it by tweaking that one ability.

    In terms of development, it's small.

    Oh yeah. Give only the hunters a new 4th spec. That would please a lot of people, and certainly wouldn't piss off anyone who have been asking for a fourth spec to their preferred classes, or worse, the DH players who have been asking for a third spec for their class. Yeah. Much simpler and easier.
    Literally said, in this same post, that they should make more specs for other classes too. Stop being obtuse.

    It's like you don't understand how things work, here. Are you telling me you're the kind of guy that never even tried to reorganize your home to give it a different air? Never thought about painting the walls a different color? Moving to another home? Are you the kind of guy who thinks the most one should do to redecorate is to just move the couch five inches to the side?
    ROFL... Small changes like I'm suggesting would be the reorganizing... What blizzard is doing ain't fuckin reorganizing, they are demolishing the house and building a new one. Small changes, like I suggest, would be the reorganizing.

    Now who's "comparison fails on a fundamental level"? Fucking yours.

    You're the one that doesn't get it.

    Moving to another home?
    That would be switching classes, which people are already free to do.

    Big changes like what Blizzard does to the classes are necessary.
    No, no they aren't.

    They weren't necessary from vanilla-wrath, they aren't necessary now.

    And even from Legion to BfA the changes were rather small, as it just basically kept how classes worked in Legion, with rather minimal changes.
    Sure, if you want to call removing the artifact weapons and all their talents and abilities with them, things the class design in Legion leaned on HEVAILY small...


    At this point it's obvious that it's impossible to convince you of anything, so I'm done with this conversation, arguing with you is a complete waste of my time and I won't be reading your responses from this point forward. Have a nice life.
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2019-09-11 at 06:43 PM.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    None. Not adding any more new classes is completely sufficient.
    I would love to agree with you and say to never add more, but then I look at my favorite classes to play (DH, DK, Monk) and realize that, IN MY OPINION, the game has been made better by their additions.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Yeah, they are.
    No they are not, and this is not even up to discussion. The only class that could be considered broken is current fire mage because once you queue pyroblast after scorch, global cooldown animation does not trigger.

    Pretty much everything else is working correctly. Just because you don't like current iterations does not mean classes are broken, and definitely does not mean majority don't like it.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Bwgmon View Post
    I always felt that Paladins and Death Knights were cut from the same cloth. Same can be said for Shaman and Death Knights. Also, Druids and Death Knights have way too many similarities, they're practically the same! /s
    Idk how I got here, bit saw this and just wanted to say: this is freaking stupid. Not onky talking about this comment, but talking about this thread.

    We need more customization not less.. so wth?

  6. #126
    Scarab Lord Dellis0991's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Detroit,Michigan,USA
    Posts
    4,978
    There is no bloat.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    This.

    But preferably just stop revamping them for no reason.


    It doesn't matter how many classes there are so long as they actually take the time to work on them and keep iterating them to perfection, and if they didn't hit the fucking reset button every other expansion we'd already have well balanced, well designed classes.
    Hitting the reset button is what keeps people from pulling a classic and spending 10 years perfecting the classes rotation, stats, etc.. and then Facerolling everything once they get the tactics for new bosses down.

  8. #128
    Legendary! Schattenlied's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    6,523
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Hitting the reset button is what keeps people from pulling a classic and spending 10 years perfecting the classes rotation, stats, etc.. and then Facerolling everything once they get the tactics for new bosses down.
    Rotations and "stats, etc" are literally perfected before the first raid is even open after the expansion launches... This is an irrelevant argument.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by maulgryve View Post
    I would love to agree with you and say to never add more, but then I look at my favorite classes to play (DH, DK, Monk) and realize that, IN MY OPINION, the game has been made better by their additions.
    I would definitely agree and heres the thing! Even IF you dont like DH, DK, Monk as a class, they made YOUR class BETTER. These new classes were completely revolutionary for class design and have improved every single spec in the game as a result of their creation. When DK came out it was leagues ahead of every other spec in the game in terms of design. Look at the original arms warrior if you need an example, or arcane mage. They were so freaking dated. These classes came in with new ideas, new ways of playing and improved the entire game.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Rotations and "stats, etc" are literally perfected before the first raid is even open after the expansion launches... This is an irrelevant argument.
    They are somewhat perfected but not even close to what you get when you have someone playing the same thing for 10 years straight.

  11. #131
    I don't think this (the topic) needs to be done, but I do wish my character could be more than one class.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    They are somewhat perfected but not even close to what you get when you have someone playing the same thing for 10 years straight.
    No human being can even be close to perfection, not after 10 years not after 20 years, basically never. If anything, it will get incredibly boring during that time. So yeah they should continue to revamp specs. Like they did with demo lock, which I consider the best spec ever created. Nothing comes even remotely close.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •