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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Nefarious Tea View Post
    For a while early in vanilla's lifespan, the bigger dungeons were actually 10 player raids: Strat, Scholo, UBRS, and LBRS. I think BRD might also have been. They were converted to five player instances to homogenize dungeon group size.
    You had to 5 man them for quests prior to the revamp. They were not 10 man raids. They were 5 man dungeons that let you 10 man them if you were bad.

  2. #82
    Yeah this 10-man raiding thing is a bit weird.

    Had you argument been that Blizzard should diversify it's dungeons and raids and add restrictions on maximum amount of allowed people in a specific raid, down to 10 for the smaller raids, then i could see where you are coming from. But otherwise this argument of Classic promoting 10-man raiding when those were dungeon and BfA already has 10m raiding is a bit odd.

  3. #83
    10man MC runs in Phase 4 confirmed?

  4. #84
    10 man mythic raiding would have saved the game for me, keeping 20 mythic raiders together was just too hard after a while, as alliance.

    But now I play classic and I love every second of it, unlikely i'll ever return to bfa.

  5. #85
    10m raids were amazing.

    I had the best time of WoW in 10m Throne of Thunder.

  6. #86
    What was the last boss anyone here has done on Mythic to say that we need 10-man raids back based on Classic?

    Classic raids are barely Normal level based on difficulty, and it needs 40 people (well, technically 40 anyways, can be done with way less).

    Normal and Heroic raids are flex, which means you can do them with 10 people (they are 10-30 people).

    Classic 'raiders' acting like they are the toughest there is, yet they've never seen Mythic progress raiding.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Nefarious Tea View Post
    Behold, two people utterly not reading what I wrote. If an instance has a max group size of 10 or 15 people, it clearly falls under the "10 player raid" umbrella of what OP is tlaking about and what we saw with ZA and Karazhan in BC (as well as every instance in Wrath, Cata, and pre-SOO Mists). Just because it's a dungeon now, or in the 1.12 patch that is Classic, doesn't mean it never was a small raid.
    Except...they don't. Scholo, Strath, and BRD were never considered raids by Blizzard, even back in Classic's hey day. They were always intended to be 5-man dungeons. The problem was a combination of the dungeons being over tuned for 5-man groups, and it being more efficient to run them in 10-man raid groups. Every quest within those dungeons, however, were completable only by a 5-man group, they were not flagged as raid quests.

    LBRS and UBRS are a bit of a different beast, however. Lower Blackrock Spire was a 5-man dungeon, as the quests in there were flagged as such, but Upper Blackrock SPire was originally considered a "Raid" portion of the same dungeon, and quests up there were actually flagged as Raid Quests. Upper Blackrock Spire also had it's own miniature attunement line with it's sealed key, which required you to look a gem off of three bosses inside the Lower section.

    Besides Upper Blackrock, however (Which was a 15-man raid originally, then cut down to a 10-man when Blizzard began enforcing a hard limit on how many people you could bring into the level 58-60 dungeons), the smallest proper raids in Classic were 20-mans, those being Zul'Gurub and the Ruins of Ahn'Qiraj.

    Let's not kid ourselves here - Stratholme, Scholomance, and Blackrock Depths were never designed as Raid dungeons. They were 5-mans that people ran with ten people because it drastically reduced the difficulty of them, to the point of them being entirely faceroll.

  8. #88
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    They cut 10man because it trivializes mechanics too much by picking a to specific comp. We do have that in any raid size, but it get's worse the lower the raid size gets. Siege of Orgrimmar showed anyone with a brain, that two equally hard 10/25 modes can not exist and a flex mode for the lower difficulties is the best compromise. One standard for the hardest content is the right choice to make. If they'd reintroduce the 10/25 split, bosses would get even more dull and generic, for they must be equally hard for both setups, which significantly limits encounter design.

  9. #89
    Warchief Mrbleedinggums's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbreed View Post
    Based on the reception Classic had, what are the chances we see 10-Man raiding come back?

    It was 100% better than the current 20 man setup, more subs, and Classic proves this.

    Thoughts?
    No 10 man raids until TBC.

    Classic raids suck horribly, unless you want the mechanics to be piss easy as well in retail? Oh look 1 single mechanic to deal with!

    Classic proves nothing about your claim on raiding. If your claim was that raids were never difficult back then, then sure.

    20 man set up > 10 man set up because they can design encounters with specific classes/abilities needed since it's more reasonable that a 20 man group would likely have at least 1 of every class. 10 man raids you had those restrictions in place. Unless of course, you were trying to make it Classic style and have half the shit immune, the other half not even phased by most of the classes so if you wanted anything done you should stack a class.

    Ooze boss in AQ anyone?
    "Why of course the people don't want war…. But, after all… it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by NabyBro View Post
    What was the last boss anyone here has done on Mythic to say that we need 10-man raids back based on Classic?

    Classic raids are barely Normal level based on difficulty, and it needs 40 people (well, technically 40 anyways, can be done with way less).

    Normal and Heroic raids are flex, which means you can do them with 10 people (they are 10-30 people).

    Classic 'raiders' acting like they are the toughest there is, yet they've never seen Mythic progress raiding.
    Im not sure what classic has to do with 10m raiding. But im in a world 500 guild and i wish deeply they add 10m mythic raiding again.

  11. #91
    Warchief Mrbleedinggums's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NabyBro View Post
    What was the last boss anyone here has done on Mythic to say that we need 10-man raids back based on Classic?

    Classic raids are barely Normal level based on difficulty, and it needs 40 people (well, technically 40 anyways, can be done with way less).

    Normal and Heroic raids are flex, which means you can do them with 10 people (they are 10-30 people).

    Classic 'raiders' acting like they are the toughest there is, yet they've never seen Mythic progress raiding.
    /clap

    Thank you for saying that. Classic "raiders" never were raiders to begin with. Only a handful of people I know ever touched foot in Mythic raiding, let alone actually did enough meaningful raiding to be able to be classified as true end-game raiders. The rest are just carebears that could barely get past Normal, let alone Heroic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    Im not sure what classic has to do with 10m raiding. But im in a world 500 guild and i wish deeply they add 10m mythic raiding again.
    Oh yea, I'm in a top 10 guild and I wish they kept 20 man raiding. See how easy it is to make empty claims?
    "Why of course the people don't want war…. But, after all… it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbreed View Post
    Based on the reception Classic had, what are the chances we see 10-Man raiding come back?

    It was 100% better than the current 20 man setup, more subs, and Classic proves this.

    Thoughts?
    But you can do 10 man raiding all you want outside of Mythic and LFR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bladesyphon View Post
    Except...they don't. Scholo, Strath, and BRD were never considered raids by Blizzard, even back in Classic's hey day. They were always intended to be 5-man dungeons. The problem was a combination of the dungeons being over tuned for 5-man groups, and it being more efficient to run them in 10-man raid groups. Every quest within those dungeons, however, were completable only by a 5-man group, they were not flagged as raid quests.

    LBRS and UBRS are a bit of a different beast, however. Lower Blackrock Spire was a 5-man dungeon, as the quests in there were flagged as such, but Upper Blackrock SPire was originally considered a "Raid" portion of the same dungeon, and quests up there were actually flagged as Raid Quests. Upper Blackrock Spire also had it's own miniature attunement line with it's sealed key, which required you to look a gem off of three bosses inside the Lower section.

    Besides Upper Blackrock, however (Which was a 15-man raid originally, then cut down to a 10-man when Blizzard began enforcing a hard limit on how many people you could bring into the level 58-60 dungeons), the smallest proper raids in Classic were 20-mans, those being Zul'Gurub and the Ruins of Ahn'Qiraj.

    Let's not kid ourselves here - Stratholme, Scholomance, and Blackrock Depths were never designed as Raid dungeons. They were 5-mans that people ran with ten people because it drastically reduced the difficulty of them, to the point of them being entirely faceroll.
    They were not ever intended to be 5 man dungeons, they were intended to be 10 and 15 man dungeons. Just that any group ove 5 is called a raid. They were never raids in the sense of raiding.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Mrbleedinggums View Post
    /clap

    Thank you for saying that. Classic "raiders" never were raiders to begin with. Only a handful of people I know ever touched foot in Mythic raiding, let alone actually did enough meaningful raiding to be able to be classified as true end-game raiders. The rest are just carebears that could barely get past Normal, let alone Heroic.

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    Oh yea, I'm in a top 10 guild and I wish they kept 20 man raiding. See how easy it is to make empty claims?
    Not like it matters what rank my guild is, but to say YOU DONT EVEN DO THAT KIND OF CONTENT!! - is just stupid. I am doing that kind of content. So whats your point again?

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbreed View Post
    Based on the reception Classic had, what are the chances we see 10-Man raiding come back?

    It was 100% better than the current 20 man setup, more subs, and Classic proves this.

    Thoughts?
    you do realise you can do 10 man raiding if you want now right, its pointless to make mythic raids 10 man as if makes some bosses easier and some harder, if you can get a 20 man team for mythic raiding then stick to heroic.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    you do realise you can do 10 man raiding if you want now right, its pointless to make mythic raids 10 man as if makes some bosses easier and some harder, if you can get a 20 man team for mythic raiding then stick to heroic.
    but i cleared hc the first week. So no more content for me? in the next 8 months?

  16. #96
    10 man raids should never have been removed.

    It's literally twice as hard to assemble a raid group currently, and 10 man raids required better players overall. 1 death in a 10 man raid was crippling compared to the stupid number of deaths you can have in 20 man.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbreed View Post
    Based on the reception Classic had, what are the chances we see 10-Man raiding come back?

    It was 100% better than the current 20 man setup, more subs, and Classic proves this.

    Thoughts?
    Huh? Classic has 40-man raiding though.
    Also, most players are not even close to any form of raiding in classic so how did you work this out?

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    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    10 man raids should never have been removed.

    It's literally twice as hard to assemble a raid group currently, and 10 man raids required better players overall. 1 death in a 10 man raid was crippling compared to the stupid number of deaths you can have in 20 man.
    Ehm, so "stupid number of deaths" means two deaths in your head?
    Really odd.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    Im not sure what classic has to do with 10m raiding. But im in a world 500 guild and i wish deeply they add 10m mythic raiding again.
    Congratz, then you have a legit claim there. But don't pretend like the statement holds true for the majority of players.

    There is a bunch of reason why blizz chose 20-man for mythic (both gameplay and irl social aspects) but the main thing you have to look at is basic encounter design:
    encounters would need to be drastically dumbed down if we cut 10 people from the raid and Blizz has a pretty good team to design encounters around 20 man for the past few years now.

    Also, if you are world 500, why do you care about 10 man, you got 20 man.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbreed View Post
    Based on the reception Classic had, what are the chances we see 10-Man raiding come back?

    It was 100% better than the current 20 man setup, more subs, and Classic proves this.

    Thoughts?
    What does classic have to do with 10-man raids returning?

    Classic raids are 40-man, even worse than 20-man you have today and seem to argue against?

    O_o

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Huh? Classic has 40-man raiding though.
    Also, most players are not even close to any form of raiding in classic so how did you work this out?

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    Ehm, so "stupid number of deaths" means two deaths in your head?
    Really odd.
    Maybe you can have a bunch of deaths in a large heroic group, but certainly not on mythic. If it's a progression boss and two people are dead early on with no way to rez, we just call wipe if we already have seen that part of the fight a lot.

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