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  1. #441
    Old God Orby's Avatar
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    Raiding for sure is easier, but leveling and dungeons are far more taxing than current, albeit more annoying.

  2. #442
    Quote Originally Posted by The-loon View Post
    This 1.12 itemization out the gate and items pre 1.10 dropping from day 1 are making stuff very easy
    Hate to burst your "muh vanilla experiunz" bubble, but even on private servers with patch 1.1 itemization, MC still dropped in 1 week.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommi View Post
    LFR saved raiding
    Quote Originally Posted by Haekke View Post
    LFR is not really easy. I would say it's a lot harder thant Mythic Dungeons
    get_a_load_of_this_guy_cam.jpg

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by cface View Post
    I wonder who actually said that vanilla was harder, cause it can't be those who actually played the content then, and then also the content in retail. I too, think people actually just said this to stir shit up.

    Look up multiple threads and you will see plenty of people stating Vanilla is harder, and even one where someone posted a YouTube video to show how Naxx Vanilla was harder based on raw numbers.

  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    This "hard" thing is such a complex subject to discuss.
    I mean... hard relative to what?
    If we had both versions 15 years ago?
    If we had both versions now? (which we do)
    Vanilla 15 years ago versus Retail now?
    Highest end difficulty for retail or any difficulty?
    With good players or clueless players?
    Are we looking at world firsts only for raids or looking at an average from the raiding pop?

    This is why I don't think people will agree. There will always be some setup in which Classic is harder than retail.
    Classic compared to any other version of WoW has less abilities on players and bosses executed at a much, much lower pace. Unless you're phrasing the question in a very specific way there is only one obvious answer to it. That's why you see people desperate enough try to argue the point based on selective dictionary definitions, because it's that hard to keep this particular delusion going.

  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by TwoMana View Post
    Chill dude. Jesus.
    Nevermind. Fuck this discussion. Live in your bubble.
    I'm proving your argument wrong and asking for the (easily accessible) actual numbers.
    Seems by your backing off when confronted with facts that you're the one living in a bubble and unwilling to admit it.

  6. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by Alempa View Post
    Dont get me wrong, leveling is much harder (well.. slower) than retail.


    But all this "Raids were harder" or "You actually needed to CC mobs in dungeons!"
    Dont, its false. Yeah CC to some degree, but NOT nearly as much as in retail wow with mythic +.


    Please dont use the argument "Classic isn't Vanilla" nothing changed dungeon wise.
    The leveling is 100% harder, I have not died while leveling since like BC. Now I die 2-3 times to a mob or pack of mobs that are my level.

  7. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by Alphatorg View Post
    Classic compared to any other version of WoW has less abilities on players and bosses executed at a much, much lower pace. Unless you're phrasing the question in a very specific way there is only one obvious answer to it.
    Not that I disagree with the fact that MC is much easier than current raid, but I disagree with your argument that is a very common but very selective take on what makes up for "difficulty". Number of abilities and pace CAN (and often do) play a role in difficulty, but they aren't defining factors in any way and you can have very difficult elements in a game that are completely unrelated with how many and how often you press keys.

  8. #448
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caperfin View Post
    I don't believe anyone claimed WoW Vanilla is harder. It's 15 years old after all...
    It was probably much harder at the time. Not being on the pre xpac patch, much older hardware, less information, and a lot of people were most likely still on 56k.

  9. #449
    I am Murloc! dacoolist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spdr View Post
    It was probably much harder at the time. Not being on the pre xpac patch, much older hardware, less information, and a lot of people were most likely still on 56k.
    Dood people still had dialup for games for REAL in 2004-2007.. WTF

    I was LATE to the cable/broadband camp (DSL was out like 5 years BEFORE cable) and I got CABLE from suckcast in the middle of KNOWHERE indiana in 1998.. SO I MEAN HAHAHAHAHA If most of you are in big ol' cities and STUFF (like I am now in Murica Texass), you all had broadband WAY before classic existed

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also to add on to the dial up thing: HALO 2 launched with World of Warcraft... Yeah they are on like Halo 9000 now. That's how gdamn long ago that was, BUT when Halo 2 launched MOST people had broadband for gaming

  10. #450
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Not that I disagree with the fact that MC is much easier than current raid, but I disagree with your argument that is a very common but very selective take on what makes up for "difficulty". Number of abilities and pace CAN (and often do) play a role in difficulty, but they aren't defining factors in any way and you can have very difficult elements in a game that are completely unrelated with how many and how often you press keys.
    That's true for games in general, but I don't see how wow's difficulty goes beyond both sides abilities and pacing?

  11. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by dacoolist View Post
    Dood people still had dialup for games for REAL in 2004-2007.. WTF

    I was LATE to the cable/broadband camp (DSL was out like 5 years BEFORE cable) and I got CABLE from suckcast in the middle of KNOWHERE indiana in 1998.. SO I MEAN HAHAHAHAHA If most of you are in big ol' cities and STUFF (like I am now in Murica Texass), you all had broadband WAY before classic existed
    Cant speak for US but most of EU side was vastly different.

    Apart from the scandinavians, most didnt have even DSL as an option, till 2003-2005, and those that did were snobbing it as expensive "not needed" or terrible cables cause ancient buildings like the UK.

    I mean you can look at the terrible numbers the government ISP (Government ISP was renting everything basically so they knew, 100% private companies started the last few years here) put out in 2009 about DSL connections in my country.

    DSL was avaliable mid 2003, by end of 2007 we had 120.000 DSL connections, by end of 2009 and because of facebook we had 1.2mil connections, i hate my country

    Now imagine the rest of the Balkans/ex-USSR state of the Internet, which is half of EU.
    Last edited by potis; 2019-09-11 at 03:24 PM.

  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by Alphatorg View Post
    That's true for games in general, but I don't see how wow's difficulty goes beyond both sides abilities and pacing?
    Just to illustrate the point, a very basic skill that is nevertheless critical to nearly all fights : getting out of fire (and conversely not getting in), or more generally positioning. It can just as much NOT pressing key than pressing them, the core component being to simply be placed at the right time at the right place.
    More generally, all the situational awareness and decision-making is mostly unrelated to key press.

    To be a bit simplistic, going into a bad place and running back to kill the add that spawned require more key presses in a shorter time than just not moving from the adequate place and being able to switch immediately to the add, yet it's actually playing better.

  13. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by Gardoc View Post
    Yeah it is so much better to choose one of the three pruned abilities that used to be baseline. /s
    I completed mythic raids without ever changing talents. They are not that great. Might give 1-3 % more dmg from boss to boss.
    19KbBmTBCvHyA3eHFhP8UCnbx2JoYA3az6

  14. #454
    Herald of the Titans Daffan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    I don't know about Vanilla but we definitely cc'd in BC dungeons/raids.
    Same in Vanilla.

    Hunter distract shot first to get mob into freeze trap (No throw trap and can't trap while in combat) also using Hunter to kite last boss in UBRS.

    Sap on pull to offset the out of stealth effect.

    Sheep caster or ranged mob.

    In Classic none of this is true as everyone is way better itemized and boosted so hardcore that they can just cleave everything down. It's like M+5 gear in Normals.
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.
    Classic+ Retune/New Boss Abilities >>> #nochanges crowd

  15. #455
    People have such a hard on to be the smartest person in the room, and claim everyone was always a cake walk.

    What is 'harder'? What part of the current game is hard? Unless you skip to saying 'mythic raids', which are for a fraction of the playerbase. Nothing is any more challenging now than it was prior.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Look up multiple threads and you will see plenty of people stating Vanilla is harder, and even one where someone posted a YouTube video to show how Naxx Vanilla was harder based on raw numbers.
    The video was specifically about Naxx40 vs Naxx Wotlk, which if you argue the Wotlk version was harder, you're likely dense af.

  16. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Just to illustrate the point, a very basic skill that is nevertheless critical to nearly all fights : getting out of fire (and conversely not getting in), or more generally positioning. It can just as much NOT pressing key than pressing them, the core component being to simply be placed at the right time at the right place.
    More generally, all the situational awareness and decision-making is mostly unrelated to key press.

    To be a bit simplistic, going into a bad place and running back to kill the add that spawned require more key presses in a shorter time than just not moving from the adequate place and being able to switch immediately to the add, yet it's actually playing better.
    I mean the difficulty of those aspects almost entirely depends on the complexity of your class/opponent and the pacing of the fight.
    Last edited by Alphatorg; 2019-09-11 at 05:14 PM.

  17. #457
    yea i agree, tbc was the hardest expansion

  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by Alempa View Post
    Dont get me wrong, leveling is much harder (well.. slower) than retail.


    But all this "Raids were harder" or "You actually needed to CC mobs in dungeons!"
    Dont, its false. Yeah CC to some degree, but NOT nearly as much as in retail wow with mythic +.


    Please dont use the argument "Classic isn't Vanilla" nothing changed dungeon wise.
    The thing that's a thousands times harder is to go into a random cave and survive

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Everyone knows it except it doesn't appear on a single page on the internet. Alright bud.
    https://twitter.com/ghostcrawler/sta...396162?lang=en

    Enjoy bro, just to make sure you dont forget about it.

    PS. It was explained in detail in an interview later about exactly what he meant, but his comments below explain it quite well, if you can read.

  20. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Difficult is defined by Oxford as follows:
    "Needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand."
    https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/difficult

    Effort
    OR
    Skill

    Something which requires significant amounts of effort, such as taking a lot of time and persistence, is difficult.

    You guys are straight up changing the definitions of words in order to facilitate your weird obsession with intentionally misunderstanding Classic fans.
    Yes, and there is nothing which requires any significant mental or physical effort outside of BfA high-end raiding. Spending a lot of time is not equal to making an effort. The very lenient, but yet present, skill floor does mean there is a small group of people who will find themselves challenged by Classic, but not by retail, but they are outliers and probably handicapped or afflicted by old age. Retail has basically no skill floor, so there's sort of a difficulty difference there, but it's really twisting the concept, when it only applies to a very specific subset of players.

    That doesn't mean that Classic fans are all handicapped or having one foot in the grave - far from it. As I've repeatedly mentioned, there are other reasons to enjoy the game. I'm perfectly fine with that. But the notion that Classic (or retail outside cutting edge raid and Mx content) is difficult? Simply absurd.
    Last edited by Ungeir; 2019-09-11 at 07:06 PM.

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