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  1. #421
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Hence why it was written that way, and no, if you arent failing at leveling, even for Vanilla standards you can always be same level/outlevel, it just includes some back and forth and a massive waste of time walking if you chose to do so.
    If you grind, yes. But keeping mobs at your level is gona take a long time to level with specially as most areas have a range of 1-3 levels on mobs of the same sort and a lot of areas is elite mobs.

    And even if you only fight equal level mobs the mobs do way more damage than they do on retail. Sure you wont die 1v1 but it can get very ugly if you get 1-2 extra mobs at a bad time.

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbolt View Post
    Yup talent changes have no impact on the game at all. Absolutely true. Also this has been discussed to death by now its time to move on and stop trying to stur up shit and play whatever you want to play and stop worrying about others.
    Vanilla 1.0 WoW was not hard. Yes talents had an impact but is was never difficult.

  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Power growth in Classic is MUCH more moderate.
    Naxx geared people 3-manned Onyxia during Vanilla.
    I'm not sure you can call that moderate.

    Ilvl/gear stat budgeting has always been a problem in MMOs, it's not even a WoW specific problem.
    It sounds stupid, but it's actually really hard problem to solve in persistent world. The WoW team has tried several solutions over the years, but none of them has been truly "good" - Vanilla wasn't either.
    Last edited by TwoMana; 2019-09-11 at 01:35 PM.

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by Absalomm View Post
    And again, that is the point. It has a feel to it that Warcraft 3 had. You are powerfull but not godlike. You could get shit done but entities like Lich King, Sargeras and so on were just untouchable and misterious until one day we woke up, downloaded our newest expansions were we had just enough bears killed to be expirienced and strong enough to let's say kill the LK or fuck up an entire Legion! MODERATE is the key word, modern day wow is like a fucking TV Novela were Illidan one day finds out that he is his own fucking brother, father, mother and lover all at the same time.
    I'm not sure if you're quoting me to confirm what I say, or if you thought I was considering it bad.
    For the record, I much prefer the moderate growth in Classic, and I think the rampant power inflation since late WotLK is the single worst design flaw in the game that ruins everything else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cface View Post
    I wonder who actually said that vanilla was harder, cause it can't be those who actually played the content then, and then also the content in retail. I too, think people actually just said this to stir shit up.
    There is a number of people who went into extreme and basically claimed that Vanilla was some sort of super-hard version of the game on every level.
    The thing is, while they did exist, they were a small minority. But they are used by a lot of people with very specific agenda (or a ton of bad faith) to pretend that they were the mainstream opinion of pro-Classic player.
    It's just, in the end, a pretext to be able to pull a strawman and ignore the actual, much more reasonable and much more valid, main arguments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoMana View Post
    Naxx geared people 3-manned Onyxia during Vanilla.
    I'm not sure you can call that moderate.
    And Sartharion was soloed by the end of ICC.
    Guess it's three times as moderate as WotLK, which is already pretty moderate compared to today's power curve.

    Now that the obvious bait has been dealt with, care to compare the stat on T1 vs T3 and then the (pre-squish) first tier of Legion with latest tier (of the same difficulty) and then just show numbers ? Because you need some heavy-duty bad faith to ignore something that simple and obvious.

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Now that the obvious bait has been dealt with, care to compare the stat on T1 vs T3 and then the (pre-squish) first tier of Legion with latest tier (of the same difficulty) and then just show numbers ? Because you need some heavy-duty bad faith to ignore something that simple and obvious.
    Chill dude. Jesus.
    Nevermind. Fuck this discussion. Live in your bubble.

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by Annelie View Post
    Vanilla was harder, classic is not vanilla.
    This 1.12 itemization out the gate and items pre 1.10 dropping from day 1 are making stuff very easy

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    I'm not sure if you're quoting me to confirm what I say, or if you thought I was considering it bad.
    For the record, I much prefer the moderate growth in Classic, and I think the rampant power inflation since late WotLK is the single worst design flaw in the game that ruins everything else.

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    There is a number of people who went into extreme and basically claimed that Vanilla was some sort of super-hard version of the game on every level.
    The thing is, while they did exist, they were a small minority. But they are used by a lot of people with very specific agenda (or a ton of bad faith) to pretend that they were the mainstream opinion of pro-Classic player.
    It's just, in the end, a pretext to be able to pull a strawman and ignore the actual, much more reasonable and much more valid, main arguments.

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    And Sartharion was soloed by the end of ICC.
    Guess it's three times as moderate as WotLK, which is already pretty moderate compared to today's power curve.

    Now that the obvious bait has been dealt with, care to compare the stat on T1 vs T3 and then the (pre-squish) first tier of Legion with latest tier (of the same difficulty) and then just show numbers ? Because you need some heavy-duty bad faith to ignore something that simple and obvious.
    I got a bit carried away, i agree with you, things got way out of hand past Wrath and then hit a sweet spot (balance wise) during MoP and then it got crazy pass that. I think that the story telling fucked this one up, since they decided to make the player almost godlike lore wise they needed to follow that trough game wise and they could not for the love of god find a way to balance it out! Adding things from Diablo and other games didn't help, at least that is my opinion. Legendary items splashing all around, mythic+ was a way of saving some trivial content like dungeons... It turned in to a big mess to be honest. I mean i'm not saying mythic+ is a bad thing but it should not reward raid quality gear. If you want to be an elitist, you should do it foe the dificulty alone, like Diablo from where the idea originated.

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by Ifeanychukwu View Post
    You mean a choice between 3 abilities that used to be baseline but now you have to choose which of the three you get back? The first 10-15 points in the talent tree are pretty boring for most classes, but real choices are made later in the trees. Build defining choices come in at around 10-15 points. Or how about leveling in retail for 10 or more levels without getting a single ability? That just feels so fucking awesome, right?
    Hey so! I actually already defended this point but I get that people really hate reading. The three abilities that would have been available to me in Retail are not and have never been baseline abilities. One is a boring passive, sure, and one uses the same art that Sacred Shield used to use but oh man, I feel you this was a really huge mental puzzle I rolled out.

    There are also no "real choices" in the vanilla trees, sorry. For HPal you can choose to be self-sufficient with Holy Shock or got assigned the role of the bitch who didn't get to have solo fun who had to take Blessing of Sanctuary. I understand a one point / one skill difference is ABSOLUTELY the pinnacle of game design and I hope you don't hurt yourself making tough decisions like "Am I maces or swords as an Arms warrior?"

    I mean I guess you have me on the no-new-skills-drought thing that retail has, so congratulations, 1/3.

  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by Ifeanychukwu View Post
    You mean a choice between 3 abilities that used to be baseline but now you have to choose which of the three you get back? The first 10-15 points in the talent tree are pretty boring for most classes, but real choices are made later in the trees. Build defining choices come in at around 10-15 points. Or how about leveling in retail for 10 or more levels without getting a single ability? That just feels so fucking awesome, right?
    So tired of seeing posts like these with people either ignorant or willfully being ignorant. In Retail you gain a new ability, or passive ability that may change some things, every 2-8 levels on top of the ability choice every 15 levels. It’s as if people either forgot about them or ignore them to prove some point that doesn’t exist.

  10. #430
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    Raiding for sure is easier, but leveling and dungeons are far more taxing than current, albeit more annoying.
    I love Warcraft, I dislike WoW

    Unsubbed since January 2021, now a Warcraft fan from a distance

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by The-loon View Post
    This 1.12 itemization out the gate and items pre 1.10 dropping from day 1 are making stuff very easy
    Hate to burst your "muh vanilla experiunz" bubble, but even on private servers with patch 1.1 itemization, MC still dropped in 1 week.

  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by cface View Post
    I wonder who actually said that vanilla was harder, cause it can't be those who actually played the content then, and then also the content in retail. I too, think people actually just said this to stir shit up.

    Look up multiple threads and you will see plenty of people stating Vanilla is harder, and even one where someone posted a YouTube video to show how Naxx Vanilla was harder based on raw numbers.

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    This "hard" thing is such a complex subject to discuss.
    I mean... hard relative to what?
    If we had both versions 15 years ago?
    If we had both versions now? (which we do)
    Vanilla 15 years ago versus Retail now?
    Highest end difficulty for retail or any difficulty?
    With good players or clueless players?
    Are we looking at world firsts only for raids or looking at an average from the raiding pop?

    This is why I don't think people will agree. There will always be some setup in which Classic is harder than retail.
    Classic compared to any other version of WoW has less abilities on players and bosses executed at a much, much lower pace. Unless you're phrasing the question in a very specific way there is only one obvious answer to it. That's why you see people desperate enough try to argue the point based on selective dictionary definitions, because it's that hard to keep this particular delusion going.

  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by TwoMana View Post
    Chill dude. Jesus.
    Nevermind. Fuck this discussion. Live in your bubble.
    I'm proving your argument wrong and asking for the (easily accessible) actual numbers.
    Seems by your backing off when confronted with facts that you're the one living in a bubble and unwilling to admit it.

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by Alempa View Post
    Dont get me wrong, leveling is much harder (well.. slower) than retail.


    But all this "Raids were harder" or "You actually needed to CC mobs in dungeons!"
    Dont, its false. Yeah CC to some degree, but NOT nearly as much as in retail wow with mythic +.


    Please dont use the argument "Classic isn't Vanilla" nothing changed dungeon wise.
    The leveling is 100% harder, I have not died while leveling since like BC. Now I die 2-3 times to a mob or pack of mobs that are my level.

  16. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by Alphatorg View Post
    Classic compared to any other version of WoW has less abilities on players and bosses executed at a much, much lower pace. Unless you're phrasing the question in a very specific way there is only one obvious answer to it.
    Not that I disagree with the fact that MC is much easier than current raid, but I disagree with your argument that is a very common but very selective take on what makes up for "difficulty". Number of abilities and pace CAN (and often do) play a role in difficulty, but they aren't defining factors in any way and you can have very difficult elements in a game that are completely unrelated with how many and how often you press keys.

  17. #437
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caperfin View Post
    I don't believe anyone claimed WoW Vanilla is harder. It's 15 years old after all...
    It was probably much harder at the time. Not being on the pre xpac patch, much older hardware, less information, and a lot of people were most likely still on 56k.

  18. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by spdr View Post
    It was probably much harder at the time. Not being on the pre xpac patch, much older hardware, less information, and a lot of people were most likely still on 56k.
    Dood people still had dialup for games for REAL in 2004-2007.. WTF

    I was LATE to the cable/broadband camp (DSL was out like 5 years BEFORE cable) and I got CABLE from suckcast in the middle of KNOWHERE indiana in 1998.. SO I MEAN HAHAHAHAHA If most of you are in big ol' cities and STUFF (like I am now in Murica Texass), you all had broadband WAY before classic existed

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    Also to add on to the dial up thing: HALO 2 launched with World of Warcraft... Yeah they are on like Halo 9000 now. That's how gdamn long ago that was, BUT when Halo 2 launched MOST people had broadband for gaming

  19. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Not that I disagree with the fact that MC is much easier than current raid, but I disagree with your argument that is a very common but very selective take on what makes up for "difficulty". Number of abilities and pace CAN (and often do) play a role in difficulty, but they aren't defining factors in any way and you can have very difficult elements in a game that are completely unrelated with how many and how often you press keys.
    That's true for games in general, but I don't see how wow's difficulty goes beyond both sides abilities and pacing?

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by dacoolist View Post
    Dood people still had dialup for games for REAL in 2004-2007.. WTF

    I was LATE to the cable/broadband camp (DSL was out like 5 years BEFORE cable) and I got CABLE from suckcast in the middle of KNOWHERE indiana in 1998.. SO I MEAN HAHAHAHAHA If most of you are in big ol' cities and STUFF (like I am now in Murica Texass), you all had broadband WAY before classic existed
    Cant speak for US but most of EU side was vastly different.

    Apart from the scandinavians, most didnt have even DSL as an option, till 2003-2005, and those that did were snobbing it as expensive "not needed" or terrible cables cause ancient buildings like the UK.

    I mean you can look at the terrible numbers the government ISP (Government ISP was renting everything basically so they knew, 100% private companies started the last few years here) put out in 2009 about DSL connections in my country.

    DSL was avaliable mid 2003, by end of 2007 we had 120.000 DSL connections, by end of 2009 and because of facebook we had 1.2mil connections, i hate my country

    Now imagine the rest of the Balkans/ex-USSR state of the Internet, which is half of EU.
    Last edited by potis; 2019-09-11 at 03:24 PM.

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