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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Difficult is defined by Oxford as follows:
    "Needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand."
    https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/difficult

    Effort
    OR
    Skill

    Something which requires significant amounts of effort, such as taking a lot of time and persistence, is difficult.

    You guys are straight up changing the definitions of words in order to facilitate your weird obsession with intentionally misunderstanding Classic fans.
    Yes, and there is nothing which requires any significant mental or physical effort outside of BfA high-end raiding. Spending a lot of time is not equal to making an effort. The very lenient, but yet present, skill floor does mean there is a small group of people who will find themselves challenged by Classic, but not by retail, but they are outliers and probably handicapped or afflicted by old age. Retail has basically no skill floor, so there's sort of a difficulty difference there, but it's really twisting the concept, when it only applies to a very specific subset of players.

    That doesn't mean that Classic fans are all handicapped or having one foot in the grave - far from it. As I've repeatedly mentioned, there are other reasons to enjoy the game. I'm perfectly fine with that. But the notion that Classic (or retail outside cutting edge raid and Mx content) is difficult? Simply absurd.
    Last edited by Ungeir; 2019-09-11 at 07:06 PM.

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Raiding for sure is easier, but leveling and dungeons are far more taxing than current, albeit more annoying.
    Not even close. Any Classic dungeon can be easily 3-manned by 3 hybrids of any kind. Don't even need dedicated tank/heals.

  3. #463
    I did ST last night. Group was 49-52. Hardly overlevelled. Bosses died in 30 seconds. We were all, "That was anti-climatic."

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by Khuzog View Post
    Currently leveling a Holy Paladin in a group, my first five talent points thus far have given me 2 intellect or 20 mana.

    Man I sure am glad we have these back. Can you imagine not being able to immerse yourself into this level of customization? Imagine if I had a choice of three new abilities by now, that'd just lead me to some cookie cutter bullshit.
    Let me talk about my "choices" of talents for Holy priest in BfA:

    1st talent: regen mana 10% more. I don't know at what level you have mana issues but it certainly isn't at level those levels of that tier. Compeletely worthless out of the gate.

    2nd talent: replicate 35% heal on previous target when healing a new target. Useful but nothing exciting because there are no mechanics at those levels that it has a huge impact.

    3rd talent: Single target heals refreshes Renew on target. Again, absolutely useless on those levels because you either never have to use renew or renew on it's own is enough to heal the target.

    How fun.

    Edit: just had a thought, if retails tuning were the same as classic, these choices would have had a noticeable and fun impact. 10% mana reg is super useful always in classic, cleave healing would be fun in dungeons and renewing renew free is always beneficial.
    Last edited by Dergiab; 2019-09-12 at 07:57 AM.

  5. #465
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Look up multiple threads and you will see plenty of people stating Vanilla is harder, and even one where someone posted a YouTube video to show how Naxx Vanilla was harder based on raw numbers.
    And I wonder who they are. I suspect they are people who never played vanilla, or even hard content in retail. Vanilla is praised, and playing classic now, I also really like it, but it baffles me how people can praise it cause of it's difficulty. Leveling leaves corpses around, but that's about it

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by Alempa View Post
    Dont get me wrong, leveling is much harder (well.. slower) than retail.


    But all this "Raids were harder" or "You actually needed to CC mobs in dungeons!"
    Dont, its false. Yeah CC to some degree, but NOT nearly as much as in retail wow with mythic +.


    Please dont use the argument "Classic isn't Vanilla" nothing changed dungeon wise.
    i never said it was harder
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  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Wickedtongue View Post
    Not even close. Any Classic dungeon can be easily 3-manned by 3 hybrids of any kind. Don't even need dedicated tank/heals.
    Considering tank could solo all BFA dungeons atm up to +10, 3 manned dungeon is definitely harder than soloable dungeon.

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by Dergiab View Post
    Let me talk about my "choices" of talents for Holy priest in BfA:

    1st talent: regen mana 10% more. I don't know at what level you have mana issues but it certainly isn't at level those levels of that tier. Compeletely worthless out of the gate.

    2nd talent: replicate 35% heal on previous target when healing a new target. Useful but nothing exciting because there are no mechanics at those levels that it has a huge impact.

    3rd talent: Single target heals refreshes Renew on target. Again, absolutely useless on those levels because you either never have to use renew or renew on it's own is enough to heal the target.

    How fun.

    Edit: just had a thought, if retails tuning were the same as classic, these choices would have had a noticeable and fun impact. 10% mana reg is super useful always in classic, cleave healing would be fun in dungeons and renewing renew free is always beneficial.
    Imagine writing out a synopsis of what each talent does and how it might affect the later build and saying that's somehow inferior to getting 20 mana, and that being all that's good for until about 30.

    But hey at least by then I'll also have +12% more healing and the spell knockback reduction. My chest swells with mind blowing gameplay decisions. "IF retail's tuning were the same as classic, these choices would have had a noticable and fun impact" fucking what lol, I got 20 mana for my first five points, 30 if my bro-mage hits me with Arcane Intellect. My friend would get +5% Parry or more Rend damage (which you have to take, since another important talent is locked behind it) as an Arms warrior instead of one of two new skills or a new rage regeneration passive, all three of which have "Hey I mean, you could use any of these if you prefer the playstyle." What the fuck am I gonna do as an HPal instead, take Divine Strength? Man these options have such a noticable and fun impact.

    Look, I get it, you don't have an actual platform beyond "I like this and don't like that", you've never actually designed anything in your life, and that's fine, but don't piss in my ear and tell me it's raining and that the old talent system is somehow more "noticable" other than they put a "You get to PUSH a BUTTON that will BARELY CHANGE the CORE GAMEPLAY of your CLASS. WHOOOA. :shocked pikachu:" carrot in front of your face.

    I'm waiting for the full 180 when people start saying that the fact you can use almost any talent in any build in evil, evil retail just means your choices don't mean anything and being locked into cookie cutter builds is akshually the superior gameplay model. Then we'll have come all the way.
    Last edited by Khuzog; 2019-09-12 at 02:21 PM.

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    Hate to burst your "muh vanilla experiunz" bubble, but even on private servers with patch 1.1 itemization, MC still dropped in 1 week.
    Fastest Rag clear I'm aware of on a private server with the itemization you outlined was day 9, which is 50% longer than on classic where <APES> cleared on day 6. It seems that itemization did play a role in killing faster. As well as bugged dungeon exp giving 290%, bugged demo shout threat tanking, and allowing 10 people in a 5 man dungeon with no experience penalty.

    Shocked someone would actually deny that these are huge contributing factors...

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by The-loon View Post
    Fastest Rag clear I'm aware of on a private server with the itemization you outlined was day 9, which is 50% longer than on classic where <APES> cleared on day 6. It seems that itemization did play a role in killing faster. As well as bugged dungeon exp giving 290%, bugged demo shout threat tanking, and allowing 10 people in a 5 man dungeon with no experience penalty.

    Shocked someone would actually deny that these are huge contributing factors...
    You seriously think that people having a few more stats on their gear is a larger contribution than bugged dungeons causing people to level way faster?

    Fuckin' lulz m8

    good bait, 10/10 got me to reply
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommi View Post
    LFR saved raiding
    Quote Originally Posted by Haekke View Post
    LFR is not really easy. I would say it's a lot harder thant Mythic Dungeons
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  11. #471
    Blizzard themselves say it wasn't harder
    The best players in the world say it wasn't harder
    The vast majority who play and played the game say it wasn't harder

    At what point do we simply agree to ignore the nutjobs?

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by Khuzog View Post

    I'm waiting for the full 180 when people start saying that the fact you can use almost any talent in any build in evil, evil retail just means your choices don't mean anything and being locked into cookie cutter builds is akshually the superior gameplay model. Then we'll have come all the way.
    The talent choices in retail means nothing because they have barely any impact whatsoever until level 100 or higher. Maybe you don't care about that, but I think it's horsepoop.

    I'd be fine with retail talent structure if they impacted gameplay at their level, not just endgame.
    Last edited by Dergiab; 2019-09-12 at 02:47 PM.

  13. #473
    2004 van wow did not have/or:
    - start at patch 1.12
    - open betas for players to practice leveling for 1-19, 1-30/40 for the time they were up.
    - layering
    - 10 player dungeon XP bonus
    - prelaunch practice, prep, and raid completion
    - unauthorized servers to practice on for 14 years
    - addons like now

    player who set the 60 leveling record, predid it even faster on a unauthorized server prior to classic wow, this server was more than likely a updated closer to classic wow version with data obtained from Beta and early download.

    MC and Onxy was "easy, way to easy, easier than remembered" for the WF classic group per their comments. composed of OG van wow players and others who did this at years back or at much harder levels on unauthorized servers

    can not accurately compare the two.

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by Dergiab View Post
    The talent choices in retail means nothing because they have barely any impact whatsoever until level 100 or higher. Maybe you don't care about that, but I think it's horsepoop.

    I'd be fine with retail talent structure if they impacted gameplay at their level, not just endgame.
    Retail: "Has barely any impact whatsoever"
    Classic: my first three talent points literally couldn't move my intellect score up, my fourth one gave me 10 mana, my fifth one gave me a newsworthy 20. I immediately rushed to the Classic forums on Reddit with keyboard clenched firmly between my thighs so I could moan about what an improved gameplay experience this was as all the nostalgia of skipping classes and sitting in a non-air conditioned bedroom 13 years ago came flooding back.

    Serious Gameplay Decisions for Serious Players Only, clearly.

    You tried to flex on my post with Holy Priest as your example. Did the 1% more crit on Holy spells in vanilla have a meaningful impact? Or did you start with Disc first for the willpower trait for 3% resistance against all the mobs that don't fear or stun until later levels? Maybe you grabbed Holy Concentration so you had at least a minimal chance to heal yourself while you can't smite anything to the ground due to all the knockback since it isn't covered by Holy Concentration in the first place.

    I get it, I know Classic is a fragile ecosystem because it will never be improved, so when people make you see the ugly flaws in your game your only choice is to live with them or quit, but vanilla talents aren't a pedestal worthy endeavor, it just means you're happier with pressing a button three times to get Improved Renew rather than one time to get the replacement for Improved Renew. Your illusion of choice isn't actually choice, it's just a re-skinned skinner box of small rewards while you ignore getting all the QOL stuff automatically in retail but I guess it's bad now because you didn't push the button with the pretty picture five times. Are you going to use the ONE endgame viable build for Holy Priest or are you gonna do the "Yeah I mean... I guess if you want to use that one" deeper Discipline build? Or will you be the promised one who finds a m-m-m-metabreaker build after fifteen years?

    Doesn't matter, you'll hit two buttons in a raid. Three if you make a macro that cries out for Innervate instead of manually asking for it.

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by Khuzog View Post

    Doesn't matter, you'll hit two buttons in a raid. Three if you make a macro that cries out for Innervate instead of manually asking for it.
    Doesn't matter, you'll hit one button in anything outside an instance in retail.

  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by Dergiab View Post
    Doesn't matter, you'll hit one button in anything outside an instance in retail.
    This is the most adorable case of "no u" when being faced with valid points that I've ever seen and I love you for it. Oh you.

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by Khuzog View Post
    This is the most adorable case of "no u" when being faced with valid points that I've ever seen and I love you for it. Oh you.
    Just got home from commute so I have no time or willingness to argue anymore because I'm busy being incredibly bored in Classic. Because that is what I do, playing games I'm bored by.

  18. #478
    The fascinating takeaway here is that with Vanilla's instanced content so much easier when revisited, it's almost certain BC's is, too -- which means that the late-Wrath call for harder stuff "like it used to be" was drawn from nostalgia of player skill at the time.

    And that means Cataclysm's difficulty bump wasn't a reversal of Wrath's design so much as it was an artificial bar -- and giant middle finger -- raised against players who'd spent the last four years getting just good enough to clear things. And to top it all off, questing was made forgettably and tediously easy. No wonder subs never recovered.

  19. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alempa View Post
    Dont get me wrong, leveling is much harder (well.. slower) than retail.


    But all this "Raids were harder" or "You actually needed to CC mobs in dungeons!"
    Dont, its false. Yeah CC to some degree, but NOT nearly as much as in retail wow with mythic +.


    Please dont use the argument "Classic isn't Vanilla" nothing changed dungeon wise.
    For one it is harder at 60 in pugs. It just is man. Mainly because people dont know how to play their class so they get aggro and its just bad. And no raids arent harder. MC and BWL are jokes. AQ40 is gonna smack some around however. But its not harder than retail raids of course. It's just different. You need consumables and such.

    And to be fair, this is 1.12 so its a lot easier than doing stuff at say patch 1.6. This is post every single class revamp so all classes are better than they were for the majority of vanilla.

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by Absintheminded View Post
    To put it in perspective, the current content is being completed with a catch-up patch’s tuning across the board. That includes classes, bosses, combat mechanics, etc. 1.12 is very different from all the patches before it.
    No. It's not.

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