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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    You're making a lot of assumptions here. I don't want better gear than anyone else moreso than I actually am as if we were all running around naked. I want the same gear everyone else has so gear is no longer an issue as far as performance is concerned.
    Ok, I'll take you at your word for all that. I still don't think it's a sustainable model to design the game around you and the handful of other people like you who enjoy one specific thing and loath the rest of the game.

    I think the game's at its least interesting when its just numbers fight, and everything is easily punched into a computer. "XXXX has 20 more damage, it's better than YYYY". That's super boring imo. I like when items have procs, on-use effects, defensive attributes, etc - things that can't be as easily weighed in a calculator. I liked dodging Indomitable Will spears for extra damage, finding the other guy with Incandescent Sliver and avoiding others like the plague.

    Aside from that, personally I remember the farming requirements for my guilds being pretty substantial in vanilla / TBC. We did carry runs through BWL and whatnot to pay for consumables for Naxx, and set up a system of what amount of what items people were expected to bring in early BT, and again in Sunwell... it was a much bigger gold sink than the amount raids gave by far. I'd be farming primal water in Skettis, and primal fire in Shadowmoon (depending on what was pricing better, water was much easier to get primals on) while I was in between college courses during the day, while sniping low auctions and being a pretty successful AH manipulator. Indeed Wrath did remove some of that grind, but not completely... but the playerbase also complained Wrath was made for casuals at the time. I personally enjoyed Wrath a lot too, but I also played every single aspect of the game back then, the same way I do today.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Akibaboy View Post
    Ok, I'll take you at your word for all that. I still don't think it's a sustainable model to design the game around you and the handful of other people like you who enjoy one specific thing and loath the rest of the game.
    I'm not asking them to design it around only my enjoyment. Make it so the best gear for an activity comes from that activity, boom. Problem solved. Disable benthic crap in raids and leave it strictly for open world. Return pvp gear. Create some M+ specific stuff. Now all 3 aspects have their own progression paths for people who like to play everything. Never understood the aversion to having to get multiple gear sets specific to each activity.

    I think the game's at its least interesting when its just numbers fight, and everything is easily punched into a computer. "XXXX has 20 more damage, it's better than YYYY". That's super boring imo. I like when items have procs, on-use effects, defensive attributes, etc - things that can't be as easily weighed in a calculator. I liked dodging Indomitable Will spears for extra damage, finding the other guy with Incandescent Sliver and avoiding others like the plague.
    All the fun stuff boils down to performance eventually and has mathematical best potential. That's just the reality of a numbers based game. I'd be all for them making you have to aim crap like an FPS, or like dark souls, though.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    I'm not asking them to design it around only my enjoyment. Make it so the best gear for an activity comes from that activity, boom. Problem solved.
    That's a contradictory statement. The "problem" you've identified is only a problem for you. A wide range of people in this thread have pointed out it's not a problem. So by calling it one and demanding it be changed, then yes... you're asking them to design around your enjoyment. The design you've identified is a limiting one... if someone has bad luck in raid drops, then tough shit because you demand a design where that's their only option. You've imposed an artificial limit on yourself that you can't enjoy playing a video game unless you're completely equipped in BiS and are better than everyone else at the head of the class - That's not a sustainable design philosophy for the game's ecosystem or its playerbase.
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Never understood the aversion to having to get multiple gear sets specific to each activity.
    But that's exactly what Benthic is - gear acquired in Nazjatar and powerful in Nazjatar. It is outclassed in M+, PvP, War Mode outside Naz, etc. I'm constantly swapping sets between my Benthic items, my Versatility items, and my M+ ones, and my trinket sets. There's no aversion considering you've identified a reason why its great - its strengths are completely situational.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Akibaboy View Post
    That's a contradictory statement. The "problem" you've identified is only a problem for you.
    Pretty sure I'm not the only one who hates benthic. I'm not even the only one who hates it for the reasons I've outlined. Also, with that logic, everything is a "personal" or a "you" problem.

    A wide range of people in this thread have pointed out it's not a problem. So by calling it one and demanding it be changed, then yes... you're asking them to design around your enjoyment.
    Oh and I suppose all the scrubs who want progression without being good or doing hard stuff because they just HAVE to be allowed to play solo and still get shinies aren't doing the same?

    The design you've identified is a limiting one... if someone has bad luck in raid drops, then tough shit because you demand a design where that's their only option.
    If it were designed like in the past, "tough luck" wouldn't happen. It was statistically much more unlikely to not have BIS by the end of the raid tier than it is TO GET a TF piece during world questing now.

    You've imposed an artificial limit on yourself that you can't enjoy playing a video game unless you're completely equipped in BiS and are better than everyone else at the head of the class - That's not a sustainable design philosophy for the game's ecosystem or its playerbase.
    Without my artificial limit, the game is boring af. Too easy. If I were in a raid with 19 other "me"s I'd be full mythic clear by now instead of just half.

    What about players having a perpetual carrot on a stick where everything can be an upgrade if you're lucky enough is sustainable for people who enjoy competition? It's the opposite. So are you saying wow, at baseline, isn't a competitive game? It's an MMO. Any and every multiplayer game is innately competitive. Besides, people actually got a sense of fulfillment before. I'd wager that's far more important than just constantly being able to get something else from your mindless grind. People like to feel accomplished. Randomly getting an upgrade or doing menial tasks to get more power doesn't feel like an accomplishment.

    Only to bottom tier humans who like gambling and casinos, who are on par with crack addicts.

    But that's exactly what Benthic is - gear acquired in Nazjatar and powerful in Nazjatar. It is outclassed in M+, PvP, War Mode outside Naz, etc. I'm constantly swapping sets between my Benthic items, my Versatility items, and my M+ ones, and my trinket sets. There's no aversion considering you've identified a reason why its great - its strengths are completely situational.
    Raid instances are different from the zone. Ergo, gear shouldn't work in raid.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Pretty sure I'm not the only one who hates benthic. I'm not even the only one who hates it for the reasons I've outlined. Also, with that logic, everything is a "personal" or a "you" problem.
    Only when taken to extremes really.

    What we're discussing is: "Should gear thats good for raids come only from raids?" The answer historically from both Blizzard and the community is largely "we don't know". For your examples of "designed in the past", I can think of just as many, and if not greater periods in the game's history going all the way back to its founding releases where tertiary activities were considered mandatory to raid competitively. Half the people bitched about it, and then when Blizzard took all of it away and said "hey, go to the raid it's fine"... the other half wondered where their super fun attunement quests went, why their professions were worthless, why there wasn't any world content, why dungeons were pointless, why their gear sucked in PvP, and like you... why it had all gotten so damn easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Without my artificial limit, the game is boring af. Too easy. If I were in a raid with 19 other "me"s I'd be full mythic clear by now instead of just half.
    And here's our actual, core problem: You don't like this video game. It has nothing to do with benthic gear. It has absolutely everything to do with this quote here. If they get rid of benthic tomorrow, this quote would remain exactly the same - benthic yes / benthic no... it's irrelevant. This is the root of the issue, and you'd have a new worst thing to ever happen to WoW next week.

    Solution:
    • Have you tried playing video games you like?

    • Do you enjoy games that you find reason to bond and lift up others? If not, try finding a game you play by yourself... instead of one thats dependent on others for success. Rather than putting 19 other people down for not being you, you can be OK with just being you.

    WoW's most successful raiding organizations consist of members who operate as a team, not unlike a professional sports team. They aren't nearly as concerned with being better than one another as they are with the overall success of the group as a whole. Sometimes the "top" performers will sit out a fight to try a new strat because they understand that the group's progress is their progress.

    • If you can only take enjoyment in being "better" than other live humans, try a competitive PvP game that does not operate on gearing or progression but rather purely on skill. WoW's PvP will be frustrating as typically Blizzard rewards people who do a myriad of different activities with additional player power.
    Last edited by Akibaboy; 2019-09-17 at 02:34 AM.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post
    That's on you for thinking that you need Benthic Gear to raid.

    Learn some self-control instead of trying to remove something fun from WoW.

    - - - Updated - - -


    This is the best course of action.
    Benthic gear is not fun, it's the opposite of fun. It invalidates 4 slots, as in the raid gear is invariably inferior to 425 socketed benthic. 425 world gear should not, no matter what, ever be better than mythic raid gear.

    Also, most people that raid mythic aren't interested in farming pearls for weeks because it just feels bad raiding without benthic. I got lucky and got all of mine in 2 weeks, but it wasn't fun. Benthic is one of the most ridiculous things blizzard as ever done.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Akibaboy View Post
    What we're discussing is: "Should gear thats good for raids come only from raids?" The answer historically from both Blizzard and the community is largely "we don't know".
    They need to pick one, stick to it, and advertise they're going with it for good so players know if they should be holding onto hope or cutting their losses and moving on.

    And here's our actual, core problem: You don't like this video game.
    I enjoy the game that exists within the game. I enjoyed mage tower challenge immensely. I've played every incarnation of dank souls, every other "hardcore" video game, and I can easily say, when I did it (first week it was up, in my...296 ilvl?) gear, it was as hard as anything I've done. managing CC on multiple adds while dancing around one-shot mechanics, while keeping DPS I could barely get with 100% uptime, let alone amidst all the other garbage. It is actually among the top video game moments in my life.

    The game is too different and covers too much of a spectrum, though, you're right. They range from THAT to monkeys dancing on keyboards. They could reconcile it by allowing the two to exist independently of each other so people could just piece-meal their own game out of the two-tons of crap they attempt to cram into it, but you seem opposed to that.


    Solution:
    • Have you tried playing video games you like?
    Yes, and there aren't enough high quality top tier games out there to soak my time. During droughts is when I play wow the most, and it NEVER feels anywhere near as rewarding. It gets close in raid.

    • Do you enjoy games that you find reason to bond and lift up others? If not, try finding a game you play by yourself... instead of one thats dependent on others for success. Rather than putting 19 other people down for not being you, you can be OK with just being you.
    I definitely prefer solo games, yes. Or games where you can hard-carry the entire rest of the team and they can witness your glory, a'la early LoL days of snowballing, dota (og wc3 version), CS:GO, etc.

    WoW's most successful raiding organizations consist of members who operate as a team, not unlike a professional sports team. They aren't nearly as concerned with being better than one another as they are with the overall success of the group as a whole. Sometimes the "top" performers will sit out a fight to try a new strat because they understand that the group's progress is their progress.
    Good for them. They're people willing to do whatever it takes because their mutual goal is to be first together. I prefer sports like tennis, swimming, etc. You're "on a team" but your victories aren't tied to others. I can get that in wow, and I have historically always been able to get that in wow. Recently, it's just been trending away from that.

    • If you can only take enjoyment in being "better" than other live humans, try a competitive PvP game that does not operate on gearing or progression but rather purely on skill. WoW's PvP will be frustrating as typically Blizzard rewards people who do a myriad of different activities with additional player power.
    name me a raid sim that has stats and epeen sites on-par with wow and I'll hop ship. I play FPSs or mobas for actual PvP and do really well. I play wow for the UNIQUE cooperative competitive content it offers. That content is unlike anything else. That's why I'm so upset. There won't BE a replacement for wow or what I get out of it once I choose to move on. It's like the girl you probably shouldn't be with but can't say no to. She has to be the one to break it off and do it in the coldest, hardest fashion for you to finally be able to move on with life.

  8. #188
    Players: "we want a currency for raid level gear to get from non-raid content. Ya know, like Wrath had"
    Blizzard: "here, have Benthic"
    Players: "not like that"

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Players: "we want a currency for raid level gear to get from non-raid content. Ya know, like Wrath had"
    Blizzard: "here, have Benthic"
    Players: "not like that"
    You only get that from world questing. Not everyone likes quests.

    The currency needs to drop from everry component you play. You should be able to get reputation from any component you play. Sure, there will be something like the most effective path, but it is up to blizzard to balance the rewards accordingly.

    Blizzard wants players to quest and raid and world pvp and do dungeons and do arena and do battlegrounds (best organized or rated, because of addiction level).. while many players just want to play one component of them all. There are some who just want to raid, some that just want to world pvp, some that just want to do dungeons, many that just want to do quests.. That is the reality.

    One of blizzards biggest conceptual mistakes is trying to lure every player into every other component. An example is the fact you start something as a quest chain and have to run a dungeon to complete that quest chain. That is not what many players would like. That is where playing something you like becomes a chore. Blizzard should allow people to focus on their gameplay, which would mean people should be able to get the rewards they like either from skill shown or effort spent from the gameplay they like.

    Blizzard should get rid of the idea you need to run component b) to complete a task from component a). Blizzard should drop a currency you can use for any kind of reward from any gameplay. While this never was the case, people should be able to limit themself to one path in the vast wow universe.

    Example 1: In BFA i got the feeling blizzard would want to drag me into world pvp by doing world quests which are also visible in warmode off . Why? Let those only appear in warmode. A completionist gets a heart attack everytime there is still some open quest on the minimap. While i personally never would activate warmode.

    Example 2: The achievement "A nation divided" starts as a quest chain.. and suddenly wants you to run dungeons. Even a mythic dungeon at start of BFA, now heroic. If you do not like to play dungeons, this would be unfun for you to do. It would be no problem, if that achievement just was an achievement, but locked behind it is the ability to play Kul Tirans.
    Last edited by Fred Skinner; 2019-09-17 at 05:41 AM.
    Rinse and repeat. For the rewards. Send even more turtles into the water.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    You do realize that can still take thousands of pearls right? It took me around 1850 to get my gloves on main.
    So your bad at the game. It's still relatively pain free.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    So your bad at the game. It's still relatively pain free.
    Lol what? I ran 14 pearl divers for a month and a half in what way does me getting screwed by rng on top of rng make me bad rofl.

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