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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by smityx View Post
    Populations will self correct one way or another thru various means if we don't control it ourselves. War, famine, disease.
    No.

    Malthusianism is pseudoscience and repeating myths like this just encourages gross inaction in the face of crisis. See: the English response to the Potato Famine.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsugunai View Post
    I'm not being sarcastic or ironic here but I always thought the prospect of children and teens dedicating their lives to studying without distractions was a great idea and the solution to declining education and downfall into gangsta/hood life. But your article seems to say "no" and recreational distractions like video games are necessary.
    Except that countries like South Korea and Japan have higher rate of suicide than the global average.

  3. #83
    Keeping in mind the old adage that causation does not imply correlation, City Lab did an interesting article on youth suicide.

    Teen Suicide Rates Are Higher In States Where More People Own Guns

    The study also looks carefully at what researchers have dubbed a “substitution effect,” by which the prevalence of guns would cause a change from other methods to guns, but not in the overall youth suicide rate. It did not find evidence of this. As stated in the study, “a higher prevalence of gun ownership is not associated with merely a shift from non-firearm to firearm suicide, but instead it is actually associated with an increase in the overall suicide rate.” Michael Siegel, one of the study’s authors, noted, “Suicide among youth can be an impulsive behavior. If you can get past that moment of time, you can have a change of mood. Other methods are not as quick or lethal [as guns].”
    Causation may not be correlation, but there is definitely a strong correlation shown on the scattergraph below.


  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Dude there's no such thing as a population problem, that's entirely a myth. The only real limit to progress is how fast people make new products and services, push science and tech, etc.

    Also we need a vastly better child rearing and educational philosophy. The K-12 school system is complete garbage that makes kids hate the learning process. It's need to be less structured and kids need to have more agency in terms of pursuing their academic interests from a young age. What we want is differentiation and to stop using school as a cookie cutter.
    It isn't rocket science to understand the concept of scale. One person in a hundred is worth more than one person in a million. The argument behind population control really should be more towards forcing companies to generate better infrastructure across the country instead of focusing on a handful of gigantic concrete strongholds. Giving people the ability and reason to move out of the city will solve overpopulation problems within cities. Though I'm not certain that we can spread this many people across our country in a safe or meaningful fashion.

    This isn't about just "how many people can survive in the landmass of the USA", it is about overpopulation at hot spots. 9 million people in the state of New York is one thing, 9 million people in the CITY of New York is quite another. Studies have actually shown a distinct correlation between higher population density and higher rates of depression, stress, drug addiction, respiratory disease, cancer, and even short-sightedness developing due to view blocking buildings. People didn't evolve to live inside these cramped spaces and sitting in cubicles all day.

    https://www.newgeography.com/content...ss-and-density

    [edit] I will concede that suicide rates tend to be higher in rural areas, though I assume that is more due to social stigma. It is easier to go kill yourself in a field alone, than it is to hang yourself off the edge of your third story apartment for all to see. As funny as it sounds, it's very possible that people don't kill themselves because it would be embarrassing.
    Last edited by Puzzlesocks; 2019-09-11 at 05:34 PM.
    “Care about what other people think and you will always be their prisoner.”
    ― Lao Tzu

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Except that countries like South Korea and Japan have higher rate of suicide than the global average.
    I think it has a lot to do with the culture also. In both Japan and South Korea, honor is of paramount importance, and suicide is considered an honorable way to die. In 2011, social psychologists Lindsey Osterman and Ryan Brown at the University of Oklahoma reported that honor states in the U.S. have higher rates of depression and suicide, even after controlling for other state-level variables that are typically related to depression and suicide. They also found, in a separate study, that individuals who embraced an honor ideology were more likely to suffer from depression.

    An honor culture is defined as a society or social group that emphasizes the importance of an individual’s reputation or “honor.” In honor cultures, people are especially polite and avoid offending others. They also strive to establish and maintain a reputation for punishing those who besmirch their honor.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Puzzlesocks View Post
    [edit] I will concede that suicide rates tend to be higher in rural areas, though I assume that is more due to social stigma. It is easier to go kill yourself in a field alone, than it is to hang yourself off the edge of your third story apartment for all to see. As funny as it sounds, it's very possible that people don't kill themselves because it would be embarrassing.
    Tend is an understatement of the year. Here is a study by JAMA Pediatrics which covers the period of 1996 - 2010.

    Widening Rural-Urban Disparities in Youth Suicides, United States, 1996-2010

    Across the study period, 66 595 youths died by suicide, and rural suicide rates were nearly double those of urban areas for both males (19.93 and 10.31 per 100 000, respectively) and females (4.40 and 2.39 per 100 000, respectively). Even after controlling for a wide array of county-level variables, rural-urban suicide differentials increased over time for males, suggesting widening rural-urban disparities (1996-1998: adjusted incidence rate ratio [IRR], 0.98; 2008-2010: adjusted IRR, 1.19; difference in IRR, P = .02). Firearm suicide rates declined, and the rates of hanging/suffocation for both males and females increased. However, the rates of suicide by firearm (males: 1996-1998, 2.05; and 2008-2010: 2.69 times higher) and hanging/suffocation (males: 1996-1998, 1.24; and 2008-2010: 1.63 times higher) were disproportionately higher in rural areas, and rural-urban differences increased over time (P = .002 for males; P = .06 for females).

    Suicide rates for adolescents and young adults are higher in rural than in urban communities regardless of the method used, and rural-urban disparities appear to be increasing over time. Further research should carefully explore the mechanisms whereby rural residence might increase suicide risk in youth and consider suicide-prevention efforts specific to rural settings.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Tend is an understatement of the year. Here is a study by JAMA Pediatrics which covers the period of 1996 - 2010.

    Widening Rural-Urban Disparities in Youth Suicides, United States, 1996-2010
    Does that do anything to disprove the assumption of embarrassment or public shame as a factor? Even animals go off on their own to die, if there is nowhere to run, it is more likely that people will keep on living, and suffering. Some of the biggest fears of people that commit/attempt suicide is that their death will hurt someone else. In a heavily populated area, it is reasonable to assume that people are less likely to commit suicide purely because of this factor. How many people commit suicide with others around? How likely are you to be completely alone or far away from people in a city compared to a village?

    If anything the rural numbers give you a better view of the number of people that would commit suicide if there were less people around. It gives you a view of the number of people suffering and contemplating suicide on the daily in big cities. It could even help explain why there is a much larger percentage of people suffering from severe depression in cities inversely to rural people committing suicide.
    “Care about what other people think and you will always be their prisoner.”
    ― Lao Tzu

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Dude there's no such thing as a population problem, that's entirely a myth. The only real limit to progress is how fast people make new products and services, push science and tech, etc.
    There you go pushing this line of bullshit again.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    I think it has a lot to do with the culture also. In both Japan and South Korea, honor is of paramount importance, and suicide is considered an honorable way to die. In 2011, social psychologists Lindsey Osterman and Ryan Brown at the University of Oklahoma reported that honor states in the U.S. have higher rates of depression and suicide, even after controlling for other state-level variables that are typically related to depression and suicide. They also found, in a separate study, that individuals who embraced an honor ideology were more likely to suffer from depression.

    An honor culture is defined as a society or social group that emphasizes the importance of an individual’s reputation or “honor.” In honor cultures, people are especially polite and avoid offending others. They also strive to establish and maintain a reputation for punishing those who besmirch their honor.
    I can't speak as much to South Korea, but the problem of youth suicides in Japan was something we talked about a lot in educator circles. There's a saying in Japan to the effect of 出る釘は打たれる- "the nail that sticks out gets hammered down", which is pretty indicative of the culture's attitude towards people that are either unwilling or unable to adjust to strict social expectations.

  9. #89
    Brewmaster smityx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    No.

    Malthusianism is pseudoscience and repeating myths like this just encourages gross inaction in the face of crisis. See: the English response to the Potato Famine.
    Difference with the potato famine is there is no ship to jump onto to take you to the land of freedom, milk and honey where the streets are lined with gold. I'm speaking more of the whole world basically being "lit on fire" to burn for a time. Survivors of whatever will start the whole process over again. Which is why I find the latest Avengers movies kind of pointless. There would need to be another Thanos every couple hundreds/thousand years to snap those fingers.

  10. #90
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smityx View Post
    Difference with the potato famine is there is no ship to jump onto to take you to the land of freedom, milk and honey where the streets are lined with gold. I'm speaking more of the whole world basically being "lit on fire" to burn for a time. Survivors of whatever will start the whole process over again.
    ??

    You realize the population is going up to 8 billion right now. Will probably be up to or over 9 billion by 2100. I'm not sure where people are getting this idea that a massive amount of people are going to die.

    Quote Originally Posted by smityx View Post
    Which is why I find the latest Avengers movies kind of pointless. There would need to be another Thanos every couple hundreds/thousand years to snap those fingers.
    Oh are you joking about all of this? I can't tell if people seriously believe in the Thanos theory...
    -----------------
    Malthus was wrong - Let's avoid ad hominem - Occam's razor - Hanlon's razor: Never assume malice over lack of knowledge. Life = problem solving. Explanation > Prediction. (Critical)Rationalism, not empiricism. Deduction, not induction/Bayesianism.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Keeping in mind the old adage that causation does not imply correlation, City Lab did an interesting article on youth suicide.

    Teen Suicide Rates Are Higher In States Where More People Own Guns



    Causation may not be correlation, but there is definitely a strong correlation shown on the scattergraph below.

    Makes sense there is this correlation. The vast majority of suicides are not long planned out affairs where people make preparations for their suicide. They are generally when they are at their emotional rock bottom and see no point in living. Looking for any way out and a gun is quick and to the point. Other popular forms of suicide take longer to kill you and give a longer time for others to find and stop you, like overdosing, hanging or cutting your wrists, or have longer set ups like trying to jump off a bridge or building. If the person is able to survive their suicide attempt or take long enough for them to climb back out of that emotional pit they don't want to attempt or regret attempting suicide. I am not going to lie I have had suicidal thoughts at various points in my life. Not so much that I have ever tried it but if I had access to a gun at the lowest points then I can't say I might not have reached for it.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by smityx View Post
    Difference with the potato famine is there is no ship to jump onto to take you to the land of freedom, milk and honey where the streets are lined with gold. I'm speaking more of the whole world basically being "lit on fire" to burn for a time. Survivors of whatever will start the whole process over again. Which is why I find the latest Avengers movies kind of pointless. There would need to be another Thanos every couple hundreds/thousand years to snap those fingers.
    That you think the potato famine was the result of overpopulation is hilarious.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Puzzlesocks View Post
    Does that do anything to disprove the assumption of embarrassment or public shame as a factor? Even animals go off on their own to die, if there is nowhere to run, it is more likely that people will keep on living, and suffering. Some of the biggest fears of people that commit/attempt suicide is that their death will hurt someone else. In a heavily populated area, it is reasonable to assume that people are less likely to commit suicide purely because of this factor. How many people commit suicide with others around? How likely are you to be completely alone or far away from people in a city compared to a village?

    If anything the rural numbers give you a better view of the number of people that would commit suicide if there were less people around. It gives you a view of the number of people suffering and contemplating suicide on the daily in big cities. It could even help explain why there is a much larger percentage of people suffering from severe depression in cities inversely to rural people committing suicide.
    Until somebody do a research to see if “public embarrassment” is a factor in people not killing themselves, I guess your assumption will remain assumption for now.

    On the other hand, we do have more recent studies specific to the US to disprove the notion that there are larger percentage of people suffering from depression in cities. Here are two studies from 2014 and 2015 from JAMA Psychiatry.

    Are mental disorders more common in urban than rural areas of the United States?

    Urban vs. rural residence is commonly cited as a risk factor for depression and other mental disorders, but epidemiological evidence for this relationship in the US is inconclusive. We examined three consecutive annual samples (2009-2011) of adolescents (age 12-17, N = 55,583) and adults (age 18 and over, N = 116,459) from the National Survey of Drug Use and Health (NSDUH) to compare the prevalence of major depression and other serious mental illness across four categories of urbanicity: (1) large metropolitan areas, (2) small metropolitan areas, (3) semi-rural areas, and (4) rural areas, with and without adjustment for other demographic risk factors. For adolescents, no association was observed between urbanicity and the prevalence of major depression, with or without statistical adjustments. For adults, no differences were found in the prevalence of major depression or serious mental illness between large metropolitan areas and rural areas, but the prevalence of both was slightly higher in the two intermediate urbanicity categories than in large metropolitan areas, with statistically significant odds ratios after adjustment ranging from 1.12 to 1.19. Contrary to expectations, the prevalence of mental disorders was not higher in the most urban compared with the most rural areas, suggesting that the move to identify mechanistic explanations for risk associated with the urban environment is premature. Evidence of slightly higher prevalence in small urban and semi-rural areas relative to large urban areas, reported for the first time, requires additional investigation.

    The conclusion of the next study is more interesting.

    Urban vs Rural Residence and the Prevalence of Depression and Mood Disorder Among African American Women and Non-Hispanic White Women.[/

    Compared with urban African American women, rural African American women had a significantly lower odds of meeting criteria for lifetime (odds ratio [OR], 0.39; 95% CI, 0.23-0.65) and 12-month (OR, 0.29; 95% CI, 0.18-0.46) MDD and for lifetime (F?=?0.46; 95% CI, 0.29-0.73) and 12-month (F?=?0.42; 95% CI, 0.26-0.66) mood disorder. However, the interaction of urbanicity and race/ethnicity suggested that rural non-Hispanic white women had a significantly higher odds of meeting criteria for lifetime (OR, 2.76; 95% CI, 1.22-6.24) and 12-month (OR, 9.48; 95% CI, 4.65-19.34) MDD and for lifetime (OR, 2.27; 95% CI, 1.06-4.87) and 12-month (OR, 5.99; 95% CI, 3.01-11.94) mood disorder than rural African American women. Adjusted prevalence analyses revealed significantly lower rates of lifetime (4.2%) and 12-month (1.5%) MDD among rural African American women than their urban counterparts (10.4% vs 5.3%; P?=?.01). The same pattern was found for mood disorder, with rural African American women experiencing significantly lower rates of lifetime (6.7%) and 12-month (3.3%) mood disorder when compared to urban African American women (13.9% vs 7.6%; P?=?.01) Conversely, rural non-Hispanic white women had significantly higher rates of 12-month MDD (10.3%) and mood disorder (10.3%) than their urban counterparts (3.7% vs 3.8%; P?=?.01).

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    You realize the population is going up to 8 billion right now. Will probably be up to or over 9 billion by 2100. I'm not sure where people are getting this idea that a massive amount of people are going to die.
    Your inability to grasp how people are dying today through malnutrition, lack of water, among other resources is dreadfully appalling.
    Were you home schooled?
    Because this willful denial has got to have a source.

  15. #95
    The Unstoppable Force breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Keeping in mind the old adage that causation does not imply correlation, City Lab did an interesting article on youth suicide.

    Teen Suicide Rates Are Higher In States Where More People Own Guns



    Causation may not be correlation, but there is definitely a strong correlation shown on the scattergraph below.

    in case you haven't noticed but lack of guns doesnt do ANYTHING to stop suicide. where there is a will there is a way. also guns are NOT the most effective way in fact it's not uncommon to have people in the hospital for failed suicide attempts by gunshot. methods like carbon monoxide poisoning and cyanide poisoning are usually more effective. the former of which isn't hard to setup at all. (no i am not going to list how to do it for obvious reasons.)
    r.i.p. alleria. 1997-2017. blizzard ruined alleria forever. blizz assassinated alleria's character and appearance.
    i will never forgive you for this blizzard.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by breadisfunny View Post
    in case you haven't noticed but lack of guns doesnt do ANYTHING to stop suicide. where there is a will there is a way. also guns are NOT the most effective way in fact it's not uncommon to have people in the hospital for failed suicide attempts by gunshot. methods like carbon monoxide poisoning and cyanide poisoning are usually more effective. the former of which isn't hard to setup at all. (no i am not going to list how to do it for obvious reasons.)
    Neither I, nor the study, ever made the claim that the lack of guns will stop suicide. All it does is show that there is an inverse correlation between the rate of youth suicide and gun ownership.

  17. #97
    Average young person's schedule:

    Wake up after staying up all night, go to boring classes or shit job, come home to swipe tinder, eat junk food and don't exercise, smoke weed, play video games, watch Netflix, sleep

    This isn't exactly surprising. People have no sense of meaning anymore whether it be through their religion, career, family, etc. Young Americans now embody the European (more specifically the French) way of life, maximizing the satisfaction of the carnal pleasures until you die.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You can't post memes here but Google "i don't know why my depression won't go away starter pack" and you will see a perfect illustration of what I'm talking about.
    Last edited by Knadra; 2019-09-11 at 11:31 PM.

  18. #98
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Neither I, nor the study, ever made the claim that the lack of guns will stop suicide. All it does is show that there is an inverse correlation between the rate of youth suicide and gun ownership.
    Where they are available, yeah. But Japan has a higher suicide rate than the US does and they do not have access to firearms anywhere near what it is in the US.
    " America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
    - Abraham Lincoln
    The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference – they deserve a place of honor with all that’s good.”
    – George Washington.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Average young person's schedule:
    Because you're the expert, lol.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Because you're the expert, lol.
    Yes, that's right.

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