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  1. #981
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    [I]

    And my reply was, there is nothing better in vanilla than in current WoW. So taking something inferior to downgrade current experience is not the way to go.
    What are you smoking here ? The quality of the game dropped dramatically over the years especially in BFA. This is a well known fact and not arguable.
    Professions are useless most of the time, the leveling system needs a rework ( fact stated by Blizzard) , class design and balance has ups and downs but it's gone downhill in BFA since Legion, the itemization system is an rng show especially in pvp where you have absolutely no control over your gear choices. The community aspect of the game barely exists and became a boost service fiesta.
    Retail has improved in many aspects over the years but it failed at respecting the core aspects of the RPG genre , character progression and player interactions being some examples.
    Mage tower and M+ were a nice addition to the game, but M+ needs some design updates if it's going to stay relevant in the future.

  2. #982
    Quote Originally Posted by Logician View Post
    So, one could imagine a game where you had a choice in gearing styles. You could either be hybrid, have gear that supports all sorts of stats. Or you could be pure, and have gear that only focuses one stat. In this game, you could imagine that the devs, for whatever reason, make it so that pure playstyles are way more ineffective than hybrid playstyles. The playerbase would exlaim, "Pures just don't work, and could never work!".

    Now, the WoW player would look at this hypothetical playerbase as silly. In WoW, those focusing on one role, the pure, work just fine. Well, think of me as a player of that hypothetical game. I don't see it as impossible to make the true hybrid functional in WoW. In fact, i find it very silly that people who play WoW actually do. They think hybrid roles are impossible to implement. As i said, i think it is very much possible, and that it will be very fun.
    Except Blizzard has explicitly stated over the years they hold the Trinity as the rule. No exceptions. There is no room for support roles in WoW according to the devs themselves. If you gave a hybrid class the ability to play 2 roles at once, they'd be unstoppable or they'd be complete garbage. If there was no PVP in the game, it might be a little more plausible, but you have the argument of "why be a pure class when you can be the better class?" Fun aside. You can't balance a game like that without setting a rule like the Trinity with how WoW is. You can argue that FF has support roles, but WoW wasn't designed with that in mind and the devs don't want it to be that way.

    Their mindset is, pick a spec and be good at it. That's how it's always been.

  3. #983
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfrostzero View Post
    Except Blizzard has explicitly stated over the years they hold the Trinity as the rule. No exceptions. There is no room for support roles in WoW according to the devs themselves. If you gave a hybrid class the ability to play 2 roles at once, they'd be unstoppable or they'd be complete garbage. If there was no PVP in the game, it might be a little more plausible, but you have the argument of "why be a pure class when you can be the better class?" Fun aside. You can't balance a game like that without setting a rule like the Trinity with how WoW is. You can argue that FF has support roles, but WoW wasn't designed with that in mind and the devs don't want it to be that way.

    Their mindset is, pick a spec and be good at it. That's how it's always been.
    Well, FF 14 has no true supp role either. There is some dps for instance that give buffs to the raid but they tend to dps less than the 2 selfish dps (Black mage and Samurai) and that also tend to be untrue currently as one of the best dps is the monk that gives quite a lot of buff to the raid.

  4. #984
    Quote Originally Posted by Logician View Post
    So, that is frankly untrue.

    But, let's look at it in another way. I'll say why i don't like the BC-on model of gearing, and the Wrath-on model of 'player over class'. First, we must see that this model doesn't fix the problem. If Feral Combat druids were to fall behind on damage, giving them their own tailor-made tier gear will not avail them a raid spot.

    Second, we must see that this model will always result in homogenizing classes. I make four tier sets for the druid. In doing so, the druid plays each of the four roles--melee, ranged, healer, and tank. However, i do not differentiate between those inside the roles. That is, the tank can dress up as a bear, or wear a shield, or make his eyes blue, but, besides these aesthetic differences, he isn't that different.

    Third, we will lose utility. The tank class who dresses up as a bear cannot, under this model, have anything that allows him to be more useful than the other aesthetically different tank classes. The biggest loser here is utility. Stealth can no longer be an important factor on a fight, because warriors don't have it. Traps cannot be super useful on this one fight; druids don't have them, y'know. Power Word: Barrier becomes just another raid wide cooldown.
    What part is untrue? Blizzard has said many many times that the Trinity of Tank, DPS, and Healer is the standard. They do not, will not, and so far have not strayed from this sentiment in any way. Whenever a spec allowed for your "true hybridization," they nerfed it or removed it's functionality completely. The best example of this was Shockadin. You could put on full Holy gear, and deal enough Spell damage to be a force alone. It wasn't better at DPS than Ret, but it was a lot more sturdy than it.

    Their own tailor made tier gear gives them bonuses that gives them some sort of advantage for collecting that gear. If you had all set gear in Classic, you'd get next to no bonus as most non standard specs.

    That's mainly due to how encounters work and wanting people to play what they want and not feel forced into a meta situation. Without having some homogenization, you'd never have functioning bear tanks or paladins. It's not great, and Blizzard has gone back on this with BFA at least by saying "bring the class not the person" with mechanics that give groups with say 2-4 warlocks on G'huun a huge advantage over those with 2 or less. You can still make a class shine in a situation with this model and allow the ones who don't shine a spot.

    When has stealth ever been advantages in the middle of a fight for a druid? Literally never. They've never had the ability to re-enter stealth. So your point is nonsensical here. Yet, traps still exist...odd. PW:Barrier was a group cooldown that was just PW:S. It was changed to give Disc priests something effective at keeping more than 5 people alive at once. It was changed in the same expansion it was released because it wasn't meeting expectations. Terrible example.

  5. #985
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfrostzero View Post
    Except Blizzard has explicitly stated over the years they hold the Trinity as the rule.
    Out of curiosity, what does the "Trinity" mean to you?
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Quote Originally Posted by mojusk View Post
    Oh, and stop being a "didn't do that in vanilla"-police. If we're doing something now that we didnt do back then, it's not because we had some sorta unwritten moral code back then, it's because we hadn't thought of it yet.

  6. #986
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    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    "I don't like it so it's artificially nerfed"

    as opposed to "non-artificially nerfed" ? Nice ambiguous subjective opinion.
    Do you type in English
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.
    Classic+ Retune/New Boss Abilities >>> #nochanges crowd

  7. #987
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Out of curiosity, what does the "Trinity" mean to you?
    Apologies for inserting myself into this discussion, but I think it's an very interesting.

    When talking in terms of RPGs, the "Trinity" isn't a subject of opinion. It's a hard fact: Tank/Heal/DPS.

    Now, when you get into the details of HOW a particular class or character performs those roles, things can get muddy real fast. Evasion tanking, self-heal tanking, mitigation tanking, kite-tanking, etc. All of these are technically fulfilling the role of "tanking", which is to keep the enemy targets focused on you instead of the other player-characters.

    The problem with Vanilla is that you have classes which simply, objectively, do not have the tools to perform some roles, despite many of their abilities clearly implying that they're meant to be able to. Bear and Paladin tanks, for example. This is poor game design, and heavily suggests that those classes were meant to be able to fill those roles. But whether from poor design or simply being unfinished, they're not able to. And we know from factual history that later on those classes did eventually get their completed toolset, cementing the case that they were always meant to be able to.

    Where this is troublesome is when we run into the purist version of #nochanges for classic conflicting with more modern sensibilities and....quite honestly.....the abandoning of all the lessons learned from the mistakes of the past. And that's where I stand: Paladins and Bears not really being able to tank is a mistake. Other massive imbalances due to developer bias is also a mistake(rogues/mages).

    I REALLY think that after all the purists have had their nostalgic time in the spotlight, that Blizzard should take steps to deviate from the purist vision in order to correct these blatant oversights that were only acceptable in Vanilla because we, both as players and developers, just didn't know any better. And no... "Go play retail" isn't a valid response. A lot of people want the immersion, environments, and themes of Vanilla, but not the obviously broken aspects simply for the sake of fueling nostalgia.

    If this takes a completely new or separate server, then I say Blizzard should just fucking do it.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-10-01 at 03:07 AM.
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  8. #988
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Apologies for inserting myself into this discussion, but I think it's an very interesting.

    When talking in terms of RPGs, the "Trinity" isn't a subject of opinion. It's a hard fact: Tank/Heal/DPS.
    I'm not speaking from experience here; but I was always led to believe it was the community of WoW which made that, and the Devs had come from the earlier game (Everquest?) in which the "trinity" was Tank/Healer/CC.

    The reason I asked the poster; is because they were saying that the Devs had this trinity in mind when designing WoW, whereas I was lead to believe that back when they would have been designing *Vanilla* WoW, DPS was never a part of the Trinity. Maybe it is something that came later, say around TBC time.

    By all means refute that with "I've never heard of that before in my life" like I say, I wasn't around back then and maybe I've just been spun some tall tales It seemed to make sense, but then I never played EQ.

    It also runs counter to the idea that support classes can't exist, or have no place, because clearly they can, and could. which is why I thought to raise the distinction.
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Quote Originally Posted by mojusk View Post
    Oh, and stop being a "didn't do that in vanilla"-police. If we're doing something now that we didnt do back then, it's not because we had some sorta unwritten moral code back then, it's because we hadn't thought of it yet.

  9. #989
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    I'm not speaking from experience here; but I was always led to believe it was the community of WoW which made that, and the Devs had come from the earlier game (Everquest?) in which the "trinity" was Tank/Healer/CC.

    The reason I asked the poster; is because they were saying that the Devs had this trinity in mind when designing WoW, whereas I was lead to believe that back when they would have been designing *Vanilla* WoW, DPS was never a part of the Trinity. Maybe it is something that came later, say around TBC time.

    By all means refute that with "I've never heard of that before in my life" like I say, I wasn't around back then and maybe I've just been spun some tall tales It seemed to make sense, but then I never played EQ.

    It also runs counter to the idea that support classes can't exist, or have no place, because clearly they can, and could. which is why I thought to raise the distinction.
    I'm a 43 year old gamer, and yes, as long as I can remember the Trinity has always been Tank/Heal/DPS. It's absolutely possible that Blizzard started designing encounters in TBC around having CC in the group comp. But there's a difference between talking about the role a class fills, and the tools that an encounter requires.

    Mainly because it's what defines an entire class-theme. ANY class can have a form of CC. The only way CC would come into the trinity is if a class was designed entirely around it. A warrior tank can have a stun, or a fear shout, which qualifies as having CC. And yet the entire warrior class is not centered on having those abilities. Likewise, and DPS or healer class can have CC abilities without having their entire structure designed around it.

    Another example of how to think about this: A hunter has a pet which has some tank-like abilities and attributes. And yet the hunter class as a whole is NOT a tank class, but rather is a DPS class because that's its primary function.

    I don't even know what a pure-CC class would look like. Would it even be able to do damage? Or would it be purely a support class, similar to a healer? Which classes in Vanilla would be considered a CC-class?
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  10. #990
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I'm a 43 year old gamer, and yes, as long as I can remember the Trinity has always been Tank/Heal/DPS. It's absolutely possible that Blizzard started designing encounters in TBC around having CC in the group comp. But there's a difference between talking about the role a class fills, and the tools that an encounter requires.

    Mainly because it's what defines an entire class-theme. ANY class can have a form of CC. The only way CC would come into the trinity is if a class was designed entirely around it. A warrior tank can have a stun, or a fear shout, which qualifies as having CC. And yet the entire warrior class is not centered on having those abilities. Likewise, and DPS or healer class can have CC abilities without having their entire structure designed around it.

    Another example of how to think about this: A hunter has a pet which has some tank-like abilities and attributes. And yet the hunter class as a whole is NOT a tank class, but rather is a DPS class because that's its primary function.

    I don't even know what a pure-CC class would look like. Would it even be able to do damage? Or would it be purely a support class, similar to a healer? Which classes in Vanilla would be considered a CC-class?
    Sorry, it's late and maybe I didn't write my response properly. I didn't mean to say "Blizzard designed Vanilla WoW with the idea that some classes would tank some would heal and some would CC" I meant that Blizzards strict adherence to any trinity of "Tank/Heal/DPS" (as mentioned by the original guy I quoted) must have come later whereas during vanilla it wouldn't have been so strict as it wouldn't have been as solid an idea yet, due to it formerly being a "Tank/Healer/Control" trinity. Which again, may be complete nonsense *anyway*

    Did you play Everquest? (I obviously didn't or I'd be stronger in my conviction )

    As for what it would look like, I guess take some of the absurd control abilities that come into play in later expansions like Ring of Frost, or that Death knight one (that worked on Ragnaros when it first came out); or strong as fuck debuffs that minimise enemy effectiveness and give it to a class that does bugger all damage like Paladin. Or a talent tree for priests and other support classes instead of the heal/heal/damage :P Balance could be more about control; and Elemental for shaman, just spitballing.

    So yeah, none of this was meant to be a "This is how it was, durr" if anything it was more to air the alternative idea of the Trinity as I had heard it originally was; and see if anyone else had heard that or agreed And all that just because I personally don't see a reason that a "Control" class couldn't exist in an MMO. It may not be a hugely popular class to play, or be stacked in a "try hard" raid comp; but it could definitely have a place that wasn't too unbalanced. Make the control effects scale with a stat, so they get better with raid gear. I need to go to sleep but I'm sure given even a few more moments thought it wouldn't be too hard to find a place for it.
    Last edited by AeneasBK; 2019-10-01 at 03:54 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Quote Originally Posted by mojusk View Post
    Oh, and stop being a "didn't do that in vanilla"-police. If we're doing something now that we didnt do back then, it's not because we had some sorta unwritten moral code back then, it's because we hadn't thought of it yet.

  11. #991
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Sorry, it's late and maybe I didn't write my response properly. I didn't mean to say "Blizzard designed Vanilla WoW with the idea that some classes would tank some would heal and some would CC" I meant that Blizzards strict adherence to any trinity of "Tank/Heal/DPS" (as mentioned by the original guy I quoted) must have come later whereas during vanilla it wouldn't have been so strict as it wouldn't have been as solid an idea yet, due to it formerly being a "Tank/Healer/Control" trinity. Which again, may be complete nonsense *anyway*

    Did you play Everquest? (I obviously didn't or I'd be stronger in my conviction )

    As for what it would look like, I guess take some of the absurd control abilities that come into play in later expansions like Ring of Frost, or that Death knight one (that worked on Ragnaros when it first came out); or strong as fuck debuffs that minimise enemy effectiveness and give it to a class that does bugger all damage like Paladin. Or a talent tree for priests and other support classes instead of the heal/heal/damage :P Balance could be more about control; and Elemental for shaman, just spitballing.

    So yeah, none of this was meant to be a "This is how it was, durr" if anything it was more to air the alternative idea of the Trinity as I had heard it originally was; and see if anyone else had heard that or agreed And all that just because I personally don't see a reason that a "Control" class couldn't exist in an MMO. It may not be a hugely popular class to play, or be stacked in a "try hard" raid comp; but it could definitely have a place that wasn't too unbalanced. Make the control effects scale with a stat, so they get better with raid gear. I need to go to sleep but I'm sure given even a few more moments thought it wouldn't be too hard to find a place for it.
    I only very briefly played Everquest. Which is strange, because I was a VERY heavy player of text-based MUDs using a dialup modem during the early days of the internet, and later on I played Dark Age of Camelot quite a bit as well. For whatever reason, EQ never really interested me.

    I think the idea of a pure-support class has been something that people have wanted for a long time now. Something that is beneficial to the group, but without falling under one of the existing roles of Tank/DPS/Heals. Most likely, as you said, with a large array of buffs, debuffs, and CC. Changing the dynamic to Tank/Heal/DPS/Support.

    But I don't think it ever really fit in for WoW. Instead of having an entire class devoted to such a support role, you can see how many classes have support-like abilities. Paladin buffs, shaman totems, druid buffs, warlock fears, mage slows and holds, hunter traps, etc.

    What I do believe, however, is as I said before: Encounter design was definitely built on the assumption than any given group comp would have some form of CC. This was a real problem in TBC for classes that either didn't have CC, or had only very limited CC. Shaman, for example, didn't get hex until WotLK. For a long time, Warlock and warrior fear was troublesome until they obtained the option to make the target cower in place instead of fleeing and aggroing everything in the dungeon. Conversely, hunters and rogues were VERY popular in TBC because freezing trap and sap worked on virtually everything except bosses.

    But to answer your original question: No, I don't think the holy trinity of class design ever included CC.
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  12. #992
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post

    I think the idea of a pure-support class has been something that people have wanted for a long time now. Something that is beneficial to the group, but without falling under one of the existing roles of Tank/DPS/Heals. Most likely, as you said, with a large array of buffs, debuffs, and CC. Changing the dynamic to Tank/Heal/DPS/Support.
    There are games like this, quickest example Bard Subspec of the Rogue in Rift, its damage is atrociously low, its healing was close to irrelevant compared to the other healers and you just did a sort of rotation of rebuffing/passive irrelevant healing-->Big buff/heal every minute.

    They probably expanded on it afterwards but for the Chocolate Rift as they call it, its basically that.

    The problem is that its irrelevant, you could simply do without it as is the same with any buff class in a game if the skill level/knowledge is higher.

    Which is why i believe most MMOs do not bother with such classes, on paper they sound good, but if they are overly powerful, then they are mandatory which is also a balancing problem.

    Most pre-Western genre MMOs, aka WoW copies and WoW itself triggering the trend in ~2005-6 after it gained popularity slowly over 2005 they had such classes, but it was exactly as i said, after a point the buffs/debuffs system was scaled to such OP levels that it was mandatory to have one, or to be buffed up to compete.

    Elf in MU online,the buffers in Lineage games, Cleric in Knight's Online which as example was its own counter, basically Debuff Cleric or Buff Cleric etc all, things before the wave of MMOs aka 2006+.
    Last edited by potis; 2019-10-01 at 09:57 AM.

  13. #993
    Quote Originally Posted by demonhunter50 View Post
    What are you smoking here ? The quality of the game dropped dramatically over the years especially in BFA. This is a well known fact and not arguable.
    Professions are useless most of the time
    Just curious, what is your baseline for professions?

    In vanilla it was worthless and a big time/goldsink allready with ROI after maybe 1 year if at all. I min-maxed just as everyone else and just used a hunter for maraudon-solo/Rhok-boost runs and went from vanilla to TBC with 15k gold with zero professions.

    In classic it is still worthless and the aoe/dungeon farmers allready making more gold, than any profession could do even after 6-12 months.

    How can you see BfA professions as worse than this?

    The only time in the history of WoW where professions outshined everything in the game, was in TBC with enchanting/tailoring if (IF) you played a shadow or warlock and it pretty much broke the game, because wearing T6 item power since the first weeks of the expansion was not healthy for the game.

    Do you really want to see the TBC idiocy again? Lets random one specific class or role and give them +3 tiers worth of gearpower for 2-4 days of profession grinding? This is your vision of perfection for a profession system?
    Last edited by Ange; 2019-10-01 at 10:59 AM.
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  14. #994
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    There are games like this, quickest example Bard Subspec of the Rogue in Rift, its damage is atrociously low, its healing was close to irrelevant compared to the other healers and you just did a sort of rotation of rebuffing/passive irrelevant healing-->Big buff/heal every minute.

    They probably expanded on it afterwards but for the Chocolate Rift as they call it, its basically that.

    The problem is that its irrelevant, you could simply do without it as is the same with any buff class in a game if the skill level/knowledge is higher.

    Which is why i believe most MMOs do not bother with such classes, on paper they sound good, but if they are overly powerful, then they are mandatory which is also a balancing problem.

    Most pre-Western genre MMOs, aka WoW copies and WoW itself triggering the trend in ~2005-6 after it gained popularity slowly over 2005 they had such classes, but it was exactly as i said, after a point the buffs/debuffs system was scaled to such OP levels that it was mandatory to have one, or to be buffed up to compete.

    Elf in MU online,the buffers in Lineage games, Cleric in Knight's Online which as example was its own counter, basically Debuff Cleric or Buff Cleric etc all, things before the wave of MMOs aka 2006+.
    Completely agree. Which is why I think Blizzard folded "support" or CC abilities into existing Tank/Heal/DPS classes as a secondary tool to help flesh out the class without having to try and build an entire class that is otherwise completely useless without a group. We saw a little bit of this with healers in Vanilla WoW, and you'll notice how, over the years, Blizzard has moved further and further away from the dynamic of healers and tanks being useless without a team.
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  15. #995
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Completely agree. Which is why I think Blizzard folded "support" or CC abilities into existing Tank/Heal/DPS classes as a secondary tool to help flesh out the class without having to try and build an entire class that is otherwise completely useless without a group. We saw a little bit of this with healers in Vanilla WoW, and you'll notice how, over the years, Blizzard has moved further and further away from the dynamic of healers and tanks being useless without a team.
    Which has caused other issues, mostly WPvP/Irrelevant PvP issues or generally non-arena PvP issues.

    But Blizzards stance has been pretty straight forward about it,just people refuse to accept some things like "Balance is around 3v3 Arena, fuck off with your WPvP problems".

  16. #996
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Which has caused other issues, mostly WPvP/Irrelevant PvP issues or generally non-arena PvP issues.

    But Blizzards stance has been pretty straight forward about it,just people refuse to accept some things like "Balance is around 3v3 Arena, fuck off with your WPvP problems".
    Honestly, adding pvp to wow was a mistake from the beginning, especially when trying to use existing pve abilities and dynamics. It has caused more problems with gearing and class balance than everything else in the game combined.

    But that's a completely different can of worms we should leave for another thread.
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  17. #997
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    When I try to mass pull on my Mage in Modern, I get fucking wrecked. So saying that everyone can pull whatever the hell they want is just bull shit. In both Classic and Modern you will die if you pull too much. Which is why I avoid pulling too much at all costs.
    When i mass pull on my mage on retail i can mow everything down during combustion and stay alive using chields, blink and ice block. On retail you just have more limited tools to deal with it.
    On classic tho, when i pull 6 or so mobs (for example tailoring quest send you to hunt down spider poachers) i can kill all of them without dying by using arcane power and spamming arcane explosion while kiting them. Maybe use nova+bandage if i got my hp too low.
    Classic simply gives you less tools to deal with mass pulls

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimreaper View Post
    Levelling up and gaining something is better than levelling up and gaining nothing. Doesnt matter much what that "something" is.
    you still get stat increases and abilities unlock when you ding on retail, but people conveniently forget about this

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    [I]
    So is cleaning entire house. It takes a lot of time and effort, is it fun? No. Bowling (insert similar activity) on the other hand with friends doesn't take too much time nor effort but it is fun. I'm not delusional here, just because something takes time and questionable effort doesn't mean it's fun.
    In my case almost all our guild went to play classic on launch and our new guild in classic had full roster online all the time. Now we have ~3 players on classic and everyone is back to retail and can't be arsed leveling past 50 on classic, because they have more fun on retail for their time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfrostzero View Post
    Mages are easy mode leveling. I went from 1 to 9 in under 30 minutes as an Undead. Go play a warrior where fighting a mob at equal level is likely to kill you lol. I played a warrior in Vanilla and was a Mythic raider with Cutting Edge achievement on retail and can tell you that not every class is created equal in Classic. I decided against my better judgement to play a Warrior again in Classic, but if I dungeon grind as a tank it is the only productive way for me to level without being killed to a mob I could sneeze at in BFA and it'd die.
    If you are playing warrior and fight yellow or orange mobs you are doing it wrong. My wife makes me REEE so hard when she tries to fight level 46 mobs on her level 43 rogue and complains that she needs help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    Just curious, what is your baseline for professions?

    In vanilla it was worthless and a big time/goldsink allready with ROI after maybe 1 year if at all. I min-maxed just as everyone else and just used a hunter for maraudon-solo/Rhok-boost runs and went from vanilla to TBC with 15k gold with zero professions.
    Professions are quite fun on vanilla, you can halt your leveling to buy/farm some mats and craft some cool shit to wear (dreamweave set for example) and it'll impact your leveling and fun factor. Professions on retail are barely worth having neither they provide any extra fun

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Honestly, adding pvp to wow was a mistake from the beginning, especially when trying to use existing pve abilities and dynamics. It has caused more problems with gearing and class balance than everything else in the game combined.

    But that's a completely different can of worms we should leave for another thread.
    adding arenas and "competitive" element to wow at expense of fun was a mistake. They should leave pvp unbalanced fun activity as it used to be
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  18. #998
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    Just curious, what is your baseline for professions?

    In vanilla it was worthless and a big time/goldsink allready with ROI after maybe 1 year if at all. I min-maxed just as everyone else and just used a hunter for maraudon-solo/Rhok-boost runs and went from vanilla to TBC with 15k gold with zero professions.

    In classic it is still worthless and the aoe/dungeon farmers allready making more gold, than any profession could do even after 6-12 months.

    How can you see BfA professions as worse than this?

    The only time in the history of WoW where professions outshined everything in the game, was in TBC with enchanting/tailoring if (IF) you played a shadow or warlock and it pretty much broke the game, because wearing T6 item power since the first weeks of the expansion was not healthy for the game.

    Do you really want to see the TBC idiocy again? Lets random one specific class or role and give them +3 tiers worth of gearpower for 2-4 days of profession grinding? This is your vision of perfection for a profession system?
    How can you possibly say that classic professions are worthless? Have you even played them???

    First-aid: I make bandages that help me reduce downtime after fighting 2+ mobs.
    Blacksmithing: I can make armor that is actually useful to me. Later on, I can make awesome pre-bis and even a pre-cursor legendary.
    Engineering: I can make a massive assortment of awesome gadgets and trinkets, and a lot of them have OP effects or are otherwise useful.

    But most importantly, there's only 300 levels. The progression is a reasonable grind, rather than an incoherent slogfest. The crafted items are all relevant at some point while levelling. Retail professions are much trickier to keep relevent as you level your character, which is disappointing. In classic, I find it much easier to keep my professions up at the same pace as my character level.

  19. #999
    Had not seen this post, my take. Mostly false conjectures, but some are true.

    1. True
    2. False
    3. False
    4. True but has exceptions.
    5. False
    6. False
    7. True

  20. #1000
    Pandaren Monk roboscorcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Completely agree. Which is why I think Blizzard folded "support" or CC abilities into existing Tank/Heal/DPS classes as a secondary tool to help flesh out the class without having to try and build an entire class that is otherwise completely useless without a group. We saw a little bit of this with healers in Vanilla WoW, and you'll notice how, over the years, Blizzard has moved further and further away from the dynamic of healers and tanks being useless without a team.
    That's great. Personally, I am 'done' with the holy trinity model. While healing and tanking is somewhat fun, it offloads too many personal responsibilities (stay alive, avoid damage, deal with the boss) from the rest of the group. In my ideal revamp, healing and tanking would still exist, but as side abilities that hybrids can offer while also dpsing. Tanks and disc priests are almost there already. I would like to see more gear that works for all hybrid specs. I love those classic items that offer a bit of every stat, because in classic, every stat is somewhat useful. Int on a 2h mace? Sweet, more holy proc dmg. Spirit? Awesome, more Consecrate AoE's.

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