The myths about Classic that have fallen apart

[Thetruth1400]

1) They were hard at the time, still are a challenge too. You are talking about literally the best of the best; the private server and mythic world first teams that are going in there and blowing the content away. Guess what? Even with 15 years of the content being out, there are still plenty of people going in there and wiping, as evident by the non hardcore, non mythic raiding, non private server twitch streamers that have done MC and wiped several times. Now is it going to take 100+ days to clear it like it did in Vanilla? Probably not, because, again, people have been playing for 15 years as well as know all the strategies for the content.

2) Old talent trees and new talent trees aren't that different, the only thing that the old talent trees have over the new is you have a choice each level. Sure, it might be only a 1% more damage on X ability talent that you choose, but guess what? It leads down the tree further so that 1% pick on this level means an actual skill 5 levels from now. Cost to change, yes it's expensive, but it also means you need to put some thought into your choices, not just make a blind choice because the choice doesn't matter like today's talents.

3) Again, you're confusing world first raiders for the general player base. The ones doing what you're saying? World first players. The ones taking their time and actually enjoying it? General player base. I guess how you confuse the two, you have your "Classic is shit" narrative to spew so you'll twist things however you can.

4) Your experience =/= everyone's experience. Sure, I'm about to toss my personal experience back at you to counter your point, which again isn't any more valid or invalid, but I've been in groups where people talk, go "Hey, you guys want to hit these quests too while we're grouped?" "Hey, you guys want to go run a dungeon?" etc. Yes, I've also had a few where people will just join, kill the mob, and leave too, but I choose not to focus on the negatives.

5) Again, your personal experience =/= everyone's. Also again, mine has been the exact opposite. Almost all my groups have grabbed up the first person to respond to "Need X for dungeon". We complete the dungeons just fine and aren't going, "No you're not welcome because you don't have X ability!" Again, you over exaggerate things for your narrative.

6) I'm not sure which class quests you're talking about that are "Fully skippable" but pretty much every single one I can think of actually grants something ueseful, many times an actual core ability. If you're a warrior, you're not skipping your class quests to get your stances. Warlocks aren't skipping their pet quests or free mount quest. Priests won't be skipping Benediction. And so on.

7) Classic is very much an RPG, through and through. It's design was based off of tabletop RPGs, where you will jump from area to area, doing little quests and earning a reputation as you go. The WoW of today is an on the rails trolley ride where you see exactly what Blizzard wants you to see when they want you to see it. You're free to decide which version if better for your personal tastes, but neither is superior or inferior overall, just on a personal level.

[justandulas]

It's true that retail has a seasonal character, but is that really such a bad thing? Why are for example catch up mechanisms a bad thing? Why is it better if people are lagging behind for almost an entire x-pac, just because they did not or could not play the game for a couple of weeks at a crucial time? Retail's mythic+ system is based on repetition, but it also keeps 5 mans relative throughout the expansion, is it really better if you spam 5mans for 1-2 weeks after hitting 60 and then they are almost completely irrelevant and it's basically raid or do nothing for the entirety of the x-pac? I also find it hard to outright agree with your progression ladder point. As you've said yourself, retail has near constant progression (re-)started by every new patch, it's just a different model than classic. On the other hand your Classic progression basically ends shortly after hitting 60, if your toon doesn't raid.

It’s a problem because it turns the game into diablo the mmo arpg basically. Wow retail has more in common with diablo 3 than EQ and that’s a problem to me

Yea, it’s a problem to have it so seasonal with so many easy catch up mechanics because it devalues the entire expac. You don’t have to beat a to get to b, b to c, there’s no progression to climb for. Just patched to play at whatever difficulty you desire with the same gear spread across them. That’s incredibly boring.

I’d rather have an mmorpg of haves and have nots where someone’s time and effort they put in was directly rewarded in game with power vs just some meaningless achievement

[pinelakias]

Some of those points you made (the majority of them, actually) are straight up bullshit. 2,3,4,5 and 6 are far, far away from reality. Reasons why they are BS:
1) Old talent trees are better. They are the reason that every single level felt important (talents and spells). Nowadays, in fake wow, you might do 15 levels with no spells, no talents, no reason why these 15(!) levels should even exist. Hell, I did 45 levels yesterday, forgetting to pick the "talents" of fake wow :P While with the old talent trees, you were glad for each and every level you got.
2) It is about the journey. You saw the speed-runners (which were either private server players for a decade and some mythic raider wannabes) reach level 60 for the speedrunning, but you seem to forget the hundreds of thousand, maybe millions(!) that love the journey. And btw, you cant say anything about it, fake wow is so easy, you are speed leveling even if you are a casual...
3) LUL a retailer trying to make a point about social interaction. Its like having an egyptian that never left the country telling me he doesnt like snow xD Like it or not, classic is about social interaction. If you are not social, you wont do anything. You will be punished. And thats a good thing, you are playing an MMORPG, not a solo game. Since the classic launch, I spoke with random peeps, I made new friends that I met in the WoW world (not even dungeons or guild) that we group up frequently to do a quest we cant complete, we just chat. Havent done that in retail in years.
4) Cant express anything on the dungeon requirement, because Im still level 30. But so far, nobody even mentioned something like that to me or anyone else from the guild.
5) Really? You are trying to bitch about Class Quests, one of the most potent reasons why we called this game an RPG? BfA lacks so much class identity, I dont even feel like calling it RPG, more like a PG. Also, if you dont do a class quest, you should be punished. Yet one more reason why real WoW is an MMORPG and not a OPG like fake wow(online playing game, doesnt seem right to call it a massively multiplayer online role-playing game).

To be perfectly honest, you just listed quite a few reasons why the game is social (and a better game) and that these are bad or something, Im thinking you actually prefer wow being a single player game, so I dont really value your opinion. Nothing personal, we just dont like the same games. I only ever liked MMORPGs, not a fan of solo games :P

[kaminaris]

1) They were hard at the time, still are a challenge too.

See this? Stop saying "nobody ever said they are hard" Because there are people who still thinks they are challenge or somehow they were hard back in the day even if nothing has really changed.

It was, and is piss easy. Way below LFR level. It IS a myth.

"The best of the best" you are mentioning, literally turned off their UI, held keyboard high and kept spamming one button.

[Alphatorg]

It’s a problem because it turns the game into diablo the mmo arpg basically. Wow retail has more in common with diablo 3 than EQ and that’s a problem to me

Yea, it’s a problem to have it so seasonal with so many easy catch up mechanics because it devalues the entire expac. You don’t have to beat a to get to b, b to c, there’s no progression to climb for. Just patched to play at whatever difficulty you desire with the same gear spread across them. That’s incredibly boring.

I’d rather have an mmorpg of haves and have nots where someone’s time and effort they put in was directly rewarded in game with power vs just some meaningless achievement

That's a player choice. What's stopping you from playing the game that way?
Why are different difficulties bad? Classic in particular only has (basically) the lowest retail difficulty.
And while it's not a super steep difference anymore, effort (in form of raiding, mythic+ and arena) actually does pay off with better gear.

I mean what do you actually do when you hit 60 on classic? You spam 5mans for a bit of gear, grind some gold and then you can basically raid-log a LFR difficulty raid or quit. You can do the same thing in retail.

[nRes]

The first or second ingame chat message from any normal vanilla guild was a TS/ventrilo IP at first contact with a new player.

You can hide all you want in your casual-single-player minded bubble, but WoW is and allways was an MMO and communication with chat only did never work.

Yeah, no. I played both vanilla and then continued into TBC. Did every heroic in TBC, including the 3 hours ones, with people I got to know from meetings in game and we never were in the same guild or used a voice client, nor was it required. The only time I used external comms was during hardcore raiding and arena. For everything else the game provided sufficient communications and Classic plays exactly the same right now. You're in your Retail reality bubble and that's fine, but that's not how most people play in Classic.

[Nikkaszal]

It's amazing to watch Classic fanboys who have spent literally YEARS making thread after thread about why Retail is the Devil and Vanilla was the best thing ever to grace God's green earth reply to this thread with "No that's just your opinion, other people like myself think differently"

You know who you are

The irony is DELECTABLE.

[noxstar]

2) Old talent trees and new talent trees aren't that different, the only thing that the old talent trees have over the new is you have a choice each level. Sure, it might be only a 1% more damage on X ability talent that you choose, but guess what? It leads down the tree further so that 1% pick on this level means an actual skill 5 levels from now. Cost to change, yes it's expensive, but it also means you need to put some thought into your choices, not just make a blind choice because the choice doesn't matter like today's talents.

Put some thoughts into your choices? Please. Most people will look at a guide or their favorite player and copy that.

[justandulas]

That's a player choice. What's stopping you from playing the game that way?
Why are different difficulties bad? Classic in particular only has (basically) the lowest retail difficulty.
And while it's not a super steep difference anymore, effort (in form of raiding, mythic+ and arena) actually does pay off with better gear.

I mean what do you actually do when you hit 60 on classic? You spam 5mans for a bit of gear, grind some gold and then you can basically raid-log a LFR difficulty raid or quit. You can do the same thing in retail.

Except everything I gain in classic will remain powerful until something better comes along raid wise

It isn’t being replaced by wq and lucky easy mode tf/wf drops every patch. It provides depth.

When naxx comes out, Mc will still be more relevant to classic than any raid in retail but the recent one

They do their expansions a disservice by making older raids and content from that very expansion, completely irrelevant and unnecessary. Add to that how easily accessible and lazy the content is to access via queues and it feels more like a mobile game than Everquest

[lollerlaban]

Some of those points you made (the majority of them, actually) are straight up bullshit. 2,3,4,5 and 6 are far, far away from reality. Reasons why they are BS:
1) Old talent trees are better. They are the reason that every single level felt important (talents and spells). Nowadays, in fake wow, you might do 15 levels with no spells, no talents, no reason why these 15(!) levels should even exist. Hell, I did 45 levels yesterday, forgetting to pick the "talents" of fake wow :P While with the old talent trees, you were glad for each and every level you got.
2) It is about the journey. You saw the speed-runners (which were either private server players for a decade and some mythic raider wannabes) reach level 60 for the speedrunning, but you seem to forget the hundreds of thousand, maybe millions(!) that love the journey. And btw, you cant say anything about it, fake wow is so easy, you are speed leveling even if you are a casual...
3) LUL a retailer trying to make a point about social interaction. Its like having an egyptian that never left the country telling me he doesnt like snow xD Like it or not, classic is about social interaction. If you are not social, you wont do anything. You will be punished. And thats a good thing, you are playing an MMORPG, not a solo game. Since the classic launch, I spoke with random peeps, I made new friends that I met in the WoW world (not even dungeons or guild) that we group up frequently to do a quest we cant complete, we just chat. Havent done that in retail in years.
4) Cant express anything on the dungeon requirement, because Im still level 30. But so far, nobody even mentioned something like that to me or anyone else from the guild.
5) Really? You are trying to bitch about Class Quests, one of the most potent reasons why we called this game an RPG? BfA lacks so much class identity, I dont even feel like calling it RPG, more like a PG. Also, if you dont do a class quest, you should be punished. Yet one more reason why real WoW is an MMORPG and not a OPG like fake wow(online playing game, doesnt seem right to call it a massively multiplayer online role-playing game).

To be perfectly honest, you just listed quite a few reasons why the game is social (and a better game) and that these are bad or something, Im thinking you actually prefer wow being a single player game, so I dont really value your opinion. Nothing personal, we just dont like the same games. I only ever liked MMORPGs, not a fan of solo games :P

No one is gonna take a person serious when he says retarded shit like "Fake wow"

[Wingspan]

It’s a problem because it turns the game into diablo the mmo arpg basically. Wow retail has more in common with diablo 3 than EQ and that’s a problem to me

Yea, it’s a problem to have it so seasonal with so many easy catch up mechanics because it devalues the entire expac. You don’t have to beat a to get to b, b to c, there’s no progression to climb for. Just patched to play at whatever difficulty you desire with the same gear spread across them. That’s incredibly boring.

I’d rather have an mmorpg of haves and have nots where someone’s time and effort they put in was directly rewarded in game with power vs just some meaningless achievement

Being a “have not” holds very little value to most modern players. The number of games these days that are willing to accommodate those with less time, skill, or dedication has increased by a ton, so competition becomes a huge factor in the design. Gaming companies have to minimize the have nots, or risk not having a successful product.

Catch up mechanics have some good and bad to them, but as a game (inevitably) declines in popularity, they become necessary... because they make it possible for a stable number of people to see the content.

[chrisnumbers]

I love these threads. Every single post cracks me up.
Definitions are constantly changed, and goal posts are constantly moved.
You'll do anything to have your opinion be the right one.

[Nikkaszal]

Except everything I gain in classic will remain powerful until something better comes along raid wise

It isn’t being replaced by wq and lucky easy mode tf/wf drops every patch. It provides depth.

When naxx comes out, Mc will still be more relevant to classic than any raid in retail but the recent one

They do their expansions a disservice by making older raids and content from that very expansion, completely irrelevant and unnecessary. Add to that how easily accessible and lazy the content is to access via queues and it feels more like a mobile game than Everquest

I want you to show me a single instance of someone having their previous that's raid gear replaced by something from a WQ

And I don't mean Uldir LFR replacement, I mean actual gear

That would require a TF that's essentially once-in-a-lifetime

[justandulas]

Being a “have not” holds very little value to most modern players. The number of games these days that are willing to accommodate those with less time, skill, or dedication has increased by a ton, so competition becomes a huge factor in the design. Gaming companies have to minimize the have nots, or risk not having a successful product.

Thankfully, wow classic is from a better time in gaming when a game could be a game and your effort and skill determined how far you’d make it.

Unlike retail, wow classic isn’t designed to please shareholders

[Wingspan]

I love these threads. Every single post cracks me up.
Definitions are constantly changed, and goal posts are constantly moved.
You'll do anything to have your opinion be the right one.

This basically summarizes the history of all Internet forums since the dawn of their creation.

[justandulas]

I want you to show me a single instance of someone having their previous that's raid gear replaced by something from a WQ

And I don't mean Uldir LFR replacement, I mean actual gear

That would require a TF that's essentially once-in-a-lifetime

Pretty much every normal or heroic piece will be replaced within a few weeks of the patch if not faster thanks to m+

Go ahead and name me a piece of mythic gear that still carries equal or better value than the next raids pieces 1-2 raids on? Because I can do that in vanilla and my gear won’t be devalued there with a patch

[kaminaris]

Pretty much every normal or heroic piece will be replaced within a few weeks of the patch if not faster thanks to m+

Go ahead and name me a piece of mythic gear that still carries equal or better value than the next raids pieces 1-2 raids on? Because I can do that in vanilla and my gear won’t be devalued there with a patch

M+ is not WQ. Read with comprehension.

[Milfshaked]

Dude you are like the only guy that plays classic that genuinely thinks that classic raids are harder, just stop it, its borderline pathetic at this point.

I think you are missing his point. It is a more abstract question of what defines a game as hard/easy. Is it the hardest available content, is it the easiest available content or is more an average or a median of the difficulty? Maybe it is a combination of everything.

Retail has a higher difficulty ceiling but also a lower difficulty floor. Depending on what you think defines difficulty, your view will be different here.

[justandulas]

M+ is not WQ. Read with comprehension.

Don’t be disingenuous to try and win an argument. Fact is between wq, m+, warfronts, and easily accessible raids.., that gear turnover is faster than its ever been in wow history and I don’t want to play diablo seasons with my wow.

[Akka]

You can see the evidence yourself. Just open the realm selection for wow classic. Here's a snapshot for you just in case that seems too hard to do.
https://i.imgur.com/AraYm0F.png

Funny, I just did what you asked, here is the result I got, at 15:00 :



There is also three "low" realms on top (we can see pieces of the third one on the fringe). Just to be complete.
Seems you just purposely waited for the middle of the night to make your screenshot, just so you could pretend the realms are empty. What a surprise, another example of dishonesty by anti-Classic trolls. That's just happen so rarely

Too bad the mod don't do anything against this trolling, allowing people like you to just shitpost without end.

By comparison, I just logged my retail character. On her group of servers (that's 4 servers added together), there is a grand total of 12 characters in Nazjatar, and 14 in Boralus Harbor. Both added together can't even reach the amount of lvl 3 character in the single server I'm playing on Classic.
Maybe that's the reason you're grasping at such straws, in fact.