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  1. #941
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I literally just said that Vanilla wasn't perfect. Don't twist my words. I never said anything about "hard" being a measure of meaning. I said "everything is extremely easy, and often invalidated". But you have a bad habit of completely misrepresenting things I say and arguing against something I never said.

    everything is extremely easy, and often invalidated
    Show me your 20+ keys done, mythic raids cleared and gladiator title. Not, not everything is easy. In fact, we have much more challenging content than ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    But to get back to the point: While Vanilla was not difficult, accomplishing things did take time and effort. Yes, sometimes TOO MUCH time. But in retail nothing takes any effort at all. It's basically logging in, facerolling your daily routine, then logging out.
    So is cleaning entire house. It takes a lot of time and effort, is it fun? No. Bowling (insert similar activity) on the other hand with friends doesn't take too much time nor effort but it is fun. I'm not delusional here, just because something takes time and questionable effort doesn't mean it's fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Do you have any argument for retail having anything of substance? I'd like to hear that instead of you trying to change the meaning of what I said again.
    Don't start with that wierd stuff about "changing meaning of what you said", thats preposterous.
    Retail has a LOT of these things like:
    Clearing mythic raids, getting all 15s done in time, getting 20 done in time - i had a real "dose" of effort an fun at the same time.
    Even collecting 800 unique pets took me quite a while a was rewarding and fun.
    Getting to 2k rating was somewhat enjoyable even if I don't like pvp. Same as original asharan, I played it for a looong time.
    Mecha-done achievement, god, this zone was the best zone I have ever played in WoW. I still come back there now and then.
    Getting all 36 mage towers done was extremely fun and took way too much effort.
    Chromie scenario, pickpocketing.
    ALL the secrets especially nightmare mount and Hivemind - absolute blast with all those minigames.
    Hell, even getting mythic island expedition below 2 minutes was much more fun than classic.



    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    This is already covered by guilds, forums, and discord. The tool of "Communities" is basically redundant, and not really adding anything of value that wasn't already there.
    That you have to alt-tab and search for yourself, no, that's not comparable. If they would be redundant nobody would use it, yet we have quite a lot of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Once again you're taking things out of context. Remember my initial reply:

    "What we really need is for Blizzard to take all of the improvements and advancements in QoL and technology in the past 15 years, and make an expansion, or total overhaul of WoW, that focuses more on the strong foundation themes that made Vanilla good. "

    What I was trying to explain in that post was what many people are actually saying when they claim Vanilla is better. What *I* think about is entirely different. The problem seems to be that too many people think the game must be 100% one way or the other. What I think we really need is the best of both worlds.
    And my reply was, there is nothing better in vanilla than in current WoW. So taking something inferior to downgrade current experience is not the way to go.

  2. #942
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    And my reply was, there is nothing better in vanilla than in current WoW. So taking something inferior to downgrade current experience is not the way to go.
    That's purely subjective opinion about the "downgrade". Clearly a large number of people like and enjoy the dynamic of Vanilla. It's not MY cup of tea, but to claim that the pacing and delivery of Vanilla is a "downgrade, outside of raw technical upgrades such as resolution or server stability, is utterly false.

    And as I said before: What we actually need is a hybrid that takes the best of both worlds. All this garbage of claiming one is better than the other, to the exclusion of all else, is just tribalistic bullshit stemming from an inability to recognize value that doesn't cater to your own personal preferences.

  3. #943
    Quote Originally Posted by Logician View Post
    Maybe one day you will laugh and say, "I walked headfirst into that one!" Because, not gonna lie, it made me lol.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I think it all boils down to the following. Can a true hybrid class work? I define a True Hybrid as a character who is brought to fulfill two roles at once during one encounter. This should exclude Discipline priests during Cataclysm who did damage in order to heal. They were brought to heal; damaging only accomplished said role. This should also exclude most bear tank druids, unless they specifically gear for both roles.

    My answer to this question is yes. I believe it can work. I don't believe Blizzard gave it a fair shot, though.
    They've never done it. Their stance has always been, when roles were more blurred, that if a hybrid could do it as good as a pure, why take the pure? So they made hybrids good at healing. Resto shamans, Resto druids, and Holy/Disc priests (more so Disc) can DPS fairly well in healing gear. That stance has been supported by the community for years as well.

    What you're asking is enough stats on gear so that you can do more than one thing while needed. When Blizzard, and the community, has defined a hybrid as you can fulfill multiple roles with the caveat of while wearing the correct gear. Fulfilling multiple roles with one set of gear would never happen. Not only, again, are stat budgets extremely restrictive, but having the ability to switch roles on the fly would make hybrids unbalanced to the point where the pure classes wouldn't be necessary at all. So your stats would be so spread out and even more nonsensical than they are now to allow this "true hybrid" and you wouldn't even need pure classes at all.

    I am all for the idea of letting hybrids be good at their given role, even in Classic, but having them be good at multiple roles at once? No. How they are is fine right now (at least concept wise). You can play enhance and throw on intellect gear and be a healer just fine. You can put on strength/+attack power gear and do decent DPS or wear that same intellect gear.

  4. #944
    Herald of the Titans Daffan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    You mean...vanilla is easy for someone like you who has been playing the game for 8 years?

    What a shocker.
    That and the whole thing was artificially nerfed.

    But yeah, either way it makes it bad.
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.

  5. #945
    I'm sorry OP, i'm not one to flame but this is just absolutely ridiculous. You clearly don't play Classic WoW because none of these "Myths" are actually happening. You've clearly quit at level 20 if you did play.

  6. #946
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I've killed rares in Classic alone on my mage. It's not that hard. Also, I'm level 47 and have only died as a result of getting ganked in pvp. Literally nothing else has come close to killing me. So either you're lying or you and the people you're talking about are god awful at playing the game.
    Mages are easy mode leveling. I went from 1 to 9 in under 30 minutes as an Undead. Go play a warrior where fighting a mob at equal level is likely to kill you lol. I played a warrior in Vanilla and was a Mythic raider with Cutting Edge achievement on retail and can tell you that not every class is created equal in Classic. I decided against my better judgement to play a Warrior again in Classic, but if I dungeon grind as a tank it is the only productive way for me to level without being killed to a mob I could sneeze at in BFA and it'd die.

  7. #947
    Stood in the Fire Whistl3r's Avatar
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    Bit late to this very subjective post. What were you expecting? Everyone to reply "Yeah mate you're so right, deleting classic wow right now"? FYI still loving classic, playing at my owns speed, having a hoot and having even considered joining the retail kids who want to spell cleave there way to 60 and complain that here is nothing to do.
    You only get one life, stop wasting it on very arrogant posts like this. I feel dirty even replying.

  8. #948
    Quote Originally Posted by Logician View Post
    That's fine if you want the BC-on model. But, it is a model not from vanilla. Vanilla had two models for hybrids. Blizzard ended vanilla with having hybrids heal in raids. Blizzard started vanilla by having hybrids be good at multiple things. Blizzard said that warriors can be a tank, a damage dealer, or a mixture of the two in group settings. This is what they said. I don't know where this idea that they only designed hybrids to do one thing at a time comes from. Perhaps that's what the players ended up doing, but it doesn't conform with how they were designed.
    Again, no they didn't. You have no idea what you are talking about and it is fairly obvious. As someone who actually played vanilla, I can tell you hybrids were never good at "multiple things." Warriors were literally the exception to the rule and even then, their tier gear was heavily aimed at tanking.

    Hybrids were looked at as "if they can heal, they will be good at it" and they designed around that. This is what the developers were saying at the time, not the community. The community just enforced it. They gave some leeway in AQ/ZG sets to give their popular non-healing specs some breathing room, but the items were generally poorly designed to be functional at best.

    Hybrids were generally allowed to be things like enhance, boomkin, or shadow but generally only one per raid because their buffs were good, but not game breaking and their DPS was either subpar, caused too much threat, or they ran out of mana going full force.

    Wrath was when hybrids were actually good at a given role. All of their talents allowed them to play any spec and be good at it. There was still the odd "this is more of a PVP spec" though. That mentality vanished at the end of Wrath though.

  9. #949
    Quote Originally Posted by Daffan View Post
    That and the whole thing was artificially nerfed.

    But yeah, either way it makes it bad.
    "I don't like it so it's artificially nerfed"

    as opposed to "non-artificially nerfed" ? Nice ambiguous subjective opinion.

  10. #950
    Quote Originally Posted by Logician View Post
    I am looking at a quote from Blizzard. "Paladins [sic] are meant to be in the thick of things." This is what Blizzard actually said.

    This is what you think Blizzard has said. "If they can heal, they will be designed around that."

    Now, tell me why i should ignore what Blizzard actually said, and believe what you think Blizzard actually said.
    What does that have to do with anything? Where does it say Paladins should be doing incredible melee dps, tanking, or healing while also performing another role they can fulfill?

    That statement iterates their Class Fantasy of Paladins were meant to be in melee range using Judgment and Seals. Paladins were asking for Judgment to have more range so they wouldn't have to risk being in melee. Blizzard has gone back and forth on that. This is further elaborated today with the fact that their Mastery requires them to stand closer to their target for added effectiveness in their healing. In Legion, they added in talents to put Paladins in melee again. In fact, with that talent used, they could pull incredible amounts of burst DPS. We had Holy paladins out DPSing everyone else on pull in Legion. This is closer to your "true hybridization" than anything the game has ever pulled off. Granted, it's burst and not an "always" talent.

  11. #951
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Uh? Ofcourse it makes it more "RPG-like" if this is the case.
    Its been like since the start of all MMORPG's

    "Scaling" is something "modern" created to not hurt the feelings of players.
    And yes, scaling ONLY exists to not hurt the feelings and make people quit the game. Its the entire and only reason why it exists.

    I admit, i love scaling in modern wow.
    BUT it has no place in a "oldschool" MMORPG.
    I think we need to start using a term other than RPG to describe this stuff. It now seems to be used to represent any game where your character has stats and abilities that are enhanced over time even as paper RPGs become less and less stat-oriented and where actual RP is more encoded in the DNA of the games.

    Also, scaling is not there so people's feelings aren't hurt. It's there to give people access to a wider set of leveling choices, to make older content still relevant, and so you can more easily play with friends. I can't even see how you think player's "feelings" play into it at all.

  12. #952
    Quote Originally Posted by Logician View Post
    What i quoted is how the devs viewed their classes' functions in a group setting.

    "Many of you have asked about your role in groups. I'd like to address that question today. The developers have attempted to make as few rock-hard roles as possible; all classes should complement each other. A priest is not just a heal-bot. When there are classes that can tank and classes that can heal, however, role definition does appear in some form. Please don't take this post as the One True Way to Play. Explore all the abilities open to your class. Experiment with different class combinations in groups. We're not telling you how to play the game, one of the fascinating practices of this genre is the ingenuity exercised by the players every day!"

    In rebuttal, the devs didn't see this as class fantasy. Surely, they have wanted paladins to be in the thick of things as their function in groups. When Blizzard outright says that priests are not just healbots, you need to abandon the idea that Blizzard wanted priests to be nothing but healbots. I have provided sufficient evidence. It is done. Your argument is untenable. Leave it.

    Now, if you want to expand upon why you think the post-BC model is better, fine. Personally, i wouldn't mind this model if one big change occurred. That all specs of a class receive different tier gear. What this model has devolved into is an aesthetic choice. Do i want the magic balls shot out of my hands to be red or blue? If this change occurs, i would like to see it where Survival hunters would be different than Marksman hunters, like how Ret paladins are different than Holy paladins.
    Source?

    Second, telling people not to just force priests to heal in no way says they didn't design gear around that absolute. Again, towards T2.5 era, they gave options in that tier to allow expansion of class roles, but the gear was so bad it still wasn't ideal to play. An elemental shaman, shadow priest, moonkin, enhance shaman, ret paladin, AND prot paladin will all OOM rather quickly with very few options to gain back mana, if any. There was never the correct stats to allow these specs to fully become a hybrid on any gear. They gave up too much in one basket for them be competitive by any capacity.

    Back to the example of a Shaman. To be a successful Enhance shaman you need the following:
    Strength or attack power to increase your base damage.
    Intellect to have a high enough mana pool and spell crit for your Shock and Totem spells.
    Enough MP/5 to continue to cast these things throughout a fight.
    Enough Agility and Crit to keep Flurry rolling.
    8% melee hit and 17% spell hit.

    What shamans don't have on their tier gear:
    Strength or attack power
    Agility
    Hit rating whatsoever

    What they also lack:
    Controllable threat

    To achieve some sort of amalgamation of stats required, you would either be wearing gear that heavily favors one thing in one slot and another stat favored in another for off-set gear. You would never have the ideal stats because of how budget works. If Blizzard went in an added a perfect enhance shaman item, it would have very few stats because +crit and +hit take up a large portion of the item budget. You'd be falling behind other DPS who don't have to manage their item budgets to hit caps as hard.

    You're sadly ignoring how things are versus how you think they should be. I want to play a Prot paladin in Classic and tank raids. It's doable, but a struggle. There is no ideal prot paladin gear that is budgeted where you could pull it off without giving up something else.

  13. #953
    Quote Originally Posted by Logician View Post
    So, this is my source for Blizzard's philosophy behind group roles.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20041026...l&t=470726&p=1

    On the second page, you can see Caydiem reiterating an important point, "The team is aware that some classes are not quite at the point where they match these descriptions. As I said in the closing paragraph, when that is the case, they're working on bringing them up to that point." From this, you can see it was Blizzard's intent to have the classes actually follow that philosophy. This isn't mere class fantasy.

    Finally, Tier 1, Tier 2, and Tier 2.5 all had stats to benefit all specs of said class. The tier sets were changed a little before Blackwing Lair release. And, i believe in the same patch, Tier 2 was moved out of Molten Core bosses. At the time, Molten Core bosses could drop both Tier 1 and Tier 2.

    This is why i say that Molten Core, and it being poorly designed, unintentionally caused all hybrid classes to be forced into the healer role. Now that you see my evidence, i would suggest you read that post.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20050207...html?setid=211
    They didn't deliver on it until BC though (actually more so in Cata and later). Again, saying something and doing something are very different. When they did class revamps, they leaned all hybrids that could heal towards healing. Plain and simple.

    You still are holding on to that. It's bizarre. It doesn't matter what they were because they not only aren't like that now, they weren't GOOD when they were spread out stats. It was better to wear the Scarlet Monastery set than it would have been to put on any of your tier gear as an enhance shaman since it had a TON of strength compared to +9 here or there. If you put on the tier gear and "truly hybridized" as you think was possible, you'd be terrible at healing, tanking, or DPSing as a support. Far, far, far worse than if you just focused on your role. You throwing out a heal once in a while would not only make you lose out on something precious like some extra DPS, it would cause a ridiculous amount of threat on top of your already uncontrollable threat with absolutely no way to reduce it. You're looking at it as to say, "it would be nice if I could fulfill any role a [class] that can." What you're not understanding is it would be a disaster. The game currently doesn't support that kind of immediate role swap without it crippling your main role.

    In a 5man, this argument becomes even more moot as fights last 1-2 minutes at maximum and unless you blew all of your mana at the start of the fight and are chain pulling it won't matter.

    It's no point in arguing anymore with your "this is how it should be" since you refuse to recognize that it isn't, and hasn't ever been like that. Even if the stats were there, the coefficients weren't. Class and gear revamps swapped that giving each class a role to fill in raid. I don't agree with it either and I've told the enhance shaman in my guild many, many times, if he is going to be enhance shaman then he isn't going to heal me. I'll find a healer and he can play DPS. Just be smart enough at it and all is golden.

  14. #954
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    [I]

    And my reply was, there is nothing better in vanilla than in current WoW. So taking something inferior to downgrade current experience is not the way to go.
    What are you smoking here ? The quality of the game dropped dramatically over the years especially in BFA. This is a well known fact and not arguable.
    Professions are useless most of the time, the leveling system needs a rework ( fact stated by Blizzard) , class design and balance has ups and downs but it's gone downhill in BFA since Legion, the itemization system is an rng show especially in pvp where you have absolutely no control over your gear choices. The community aspect of the game barely exists and became a boost service fiesta.
    Retail has improved in many aspects over the years but it failed at respecting the core aspects of the RPG genre , character progression and player interactions being some examples.
    Mage tower and M+ were a nice addition to the game, but M+ needs some design updates if it's going to stay relevant in the future.

  15. #955
    Quote Originally Posted by Logician View Post
    So, one could imagine a game where you had a choice in gearing styles. You could either be hybrid, have gear that supports all sorts of stats. Or you could be pure, and have gear that only focuses one stat. In this game, you could imagine that the devs, for whatever reason, make it so that pure playstyles are way more ineffective than hybrid playstyles. The playerbase would exlaim, "Pures just don't work, and could never work!".

    Now, the WoW player would look at this hypothetical playerbase as silly. In WoW, those focusing on one role, the pure, work just fine. Well, think of me as a player of that hypothetical game. I don't see it as impossible to make the true hybrid functional in WoW. In fact, i find it very silly that people who play WoW actually do. They think hybrid roles are impossible to implement. As i said, i think it is very much possible, and that it will be very fun.
    Except Blizzard has explicitly stated over the years they hold the Trinity as the rule. No exceptions. There is no room for support roles in WoW according to the devs themselves. If you gave a hybrid class the ability to play 2 roles at once, they'd be unstoppable or they'd be complete garbage. If there was no PVP in the game, it might be a little more plausible, but you have the argument of "why be a pure class when you can be the better class?" Fun aside. You can't balance a game like that without setting a rule like the Trinity with how WoW is. You can argue that FF has support roles, but WoW wasn't designed with that in mind and the devs don't want it to be that way.

    Their mindset is, pick a spec and be good at it. That's how it's always been.

  16. #956
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfrostzero View Post
    Except Blizzard has explicitly stated over the years they hold the Trinity as the rule. No exceptions. There is no room for support roles in WoW according to the devs themselves. If you gave a hybrid class the ability to play 2 roles at once, they'd be unstoppable or they'd be complete garbage. If there was no PVP in the game, it might be a little more plausible, but you have the argument of "why be a pure class when you can be the better class?" Fun aside. You can't balance a game like that without setting a rule like the Trinity with how WoW is. You can argue that FF has support roles, but WoW wasn't designed with that in mind and the devs don't want it to be that way.

    Their mindset is, pick a spec and be good at it. That's how it's always been.
    Well, FF 14 has no true supp role either. There is some dps for instance that give buffs to the raid but they tend to dps less than the 2 selfish dps (Black mage and Samurai) and that also tend to be untrue currently as one of the best dps is the monk that gives quite a lot of buff to the raid.

  17. #957
    Quote Originally Posted by Logician View Post
    So, that is frankly untrue.

    But, let's look at it in another way. I'll say why i don't like the BC-on model of gearing, and the Wrath-on model of 'player over class'. First, we must see that this model doesn't fix the problem. If Feral Combat druids were to fall behind on damage, giving them their own tailor-made tier gear will not avail them a raid spot.

    Second, we must see that this model will always result in homogenizing classes. I make four tier sets for the druid. In doing so, the druid plays each of the four roles--melee, ranged, healer, and tank. However, i do not differentiate between those inside the roles. That is, the tank can dress up as a bear, or wear a shield, or make his eyes blue, but, besides these aesthetic differences, he isn't that different.

    Third, we will lose utility. The tank class who dresses up as a bear cannot, under this model, have anything that allows him to be more useful than the other aesthetically different tank classes. The biggest loser here is utility. Stealth can no longer be an important factor on a fight, because warriors don't have it. Traps cannot be super useful on this one fight; druids don't have them, y'know. Power Word: Barrier becomes just another raid wide cooldown.
    What part is untrue? Blizzard has said many many times that the Trinity of Tank, DPS, and Healer is the standard. They do not, will not, and so far have not strayed from this sentiment in any way. Whenever a spec allowed for your "true hybridization," they nerfed it or removed it's functionality completely. The best example of this was Shockadin. You could put on full Holy gear, and deal enough Spell damage to be a force alone. It wasn't better at DPS than Ret, but it was a lot more sturdy than it.

    Their own tailor made tier gear gives them bonuses that gives them some sort of advantage for collecting that gear. If you had all set gear in Classic, you'd get next to no bonus as most non standard specs.

    That's mainly due to how encounters work and wanting people to play what they want and not feel forced into a meta situation. Without having some homogenization, you'd never have functioning bear tanks or paladins. It's not great, and Blizzard has gone back on this with BFA at least by saying "bring the class not the person" with mechanics that give groups with say 2-4 warlocks on G'huun a huge advantage over those with 2 or less. You can still make a class shine in a situation with this model and allow the ones who don't shine a spot.

    When has stealth ever been advantages in the middle of a fight for a druid? Literally never. They've never had the ability to re-enter stealth. So your point is nonsensical here. Yet, traps still exist...odd. PW:Barrier was a group cooldown that was just PW:S. It was changed to give Disc priests something effective at keeping more than 5 people alive at once. It was changed in the same expansion it was released because it wasn't meeting expectations. Terrible example.

  18. #958
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfrostzero View Post
    Except Blizzard has explicitly stated over the years they hold the Trinity as the rule.
    Out of curiosity, what does the "Trinity" mean to you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Posting here is primarily a way to strengthen your own viewpoint against common counter-arguments.

  19. #959
    Herald of the Titans Daffan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    "I don't like it so it's artificially nerfed"

    as opposed to "non-artificially nerfed" ? Nice ambiguous subjective opinion.
    Do you type in English
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.

  20. #960
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Out of curiosity, what does the "Trinity" mean to you?
    Apologies for inserting myself into this discussion, but I think it's an very interesting.

    When talking in terms of RPGs, the "Trinity" isn't a subject of opinion. It's a hard fact: Tank/Heal/DPS.

    Now, when you get into the details of HOW a particular class or character performs those roles, things can get muddy real fast. Evasion tanking, self-heal tanking, mitigation tanking, kite-tanking, etc. All of these are technically fulfilling the role of "tanking", which is to keep the enemy targets focused on you instead of the other player-characters.

    The problem with Vanilla is that you have classes which simply, objectively, do not have the tools to perform some roles, despite many of their abilities clearly implying that they're meant to be able to. Bear and Paladin tanks, for example. This is poor game design, and heavily suggests that those classes were meant to be able to fill those roles. But whether from poor design or simply being unfinished, they're not able to. And we know from factual history that later on those classes did eventually get their completed toolset, cementing the case that they were always meant to be able to.

    Where this is troublesome is when we run into the purist version of #nochanges for classic conflicting with more modern sensibilities and....quite honestly.....the abandoning of all the lessons learned from the mistakes of the past. And that's where I stand: Paladins and Bears not really being able to tank is a mistake. Other massive imbalances due to developer bias is also a mistake(rogues/mages).

    I REALLY think that after all the purists have had their nostalgic time in the spotlight, that Blizzard should take steps to deviate from the purist vision in order to correct these blatant oversights that were only acceptable in Vanilla because we, both as players and developers, just didn't know any better. And no... "Go play retail" isn't a valid response. A lot of people want the immersion, environments, and themes of Vanilla, but not the obviously broken aspects simply for the sake of fueling nostalgia.

    If this takes a completely new or separate server, then I say Blizzard should just fucking do it.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-10-01 at 03:07 AM.

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