frost, warrior, holy priest and combat need to be nerfed

[Nhodjin]

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zon...1000#class=DPS

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zon...#class=Healers

These specs are ridiculously overtuned. Classes like hunter, paladin, druid and shaman have absolutely no chance at performing on a viable level. I understand people want no changes but if the tuning looks this bad (PS this tuning is worse than BFA) then I do not understand why the game is getting so much praise.

It's a shame when half of the classes in the game are not viable. I think of this as an absolute development failure.

As a shaman i provide WF totem, mana totem, cleansing etc etc that's the power of shamans. So not everything is about output

[crusadernero]

the only reason this happened is because he played with .... back then .

and hunters have extremly low skillcap to pull average numbers

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i so like this answer

what kind of class requires high skillcap in order to do good dmg? In pve the best dmg classes requires nothing but pressing 1 button for long as needed.,

[DenniZ]

As a shaman i provide WF totem, mana totem, cleansing etc etc that's the power of shamans. So not everything is about output

Exactly my point. The DPS or Healing chart is not the ONLY thing that makes a class/spec viable. Typical retail mentality.
Classic is an MMORPG, retail is an action game.

[Tarba]

joke of the year right here.

you mean the tuning where every MDI group takes 3 rogues?

or the ridiculous class stacking required to down mythic bosses? (notable shadow priests atm for example)

you can do MC with 40 paladins if you wanted, so the balance doesnt matter in the slightest

You can do lfr with any comp you want in bfa.

When we talk about extreme challenge of course you can't compare with anything in classic.
Still, on the first kill of azshara I see eleven different dps classes. Same with Jaina.
And we are talking about top end player who can chose between every possible class for their comp to do the optimal dps.

[Schmilblick]

Yeah and also buff and rework Ret and Enhance, thank you.

[ifrah]

Everything is viable? You obviously haven't played vanilla.

If counting off the extreme of having "meme specs" filling up the raid, yes, pretty much everything with even a slight common sense was viable in vanilla. You will encounter harder and a bit more harder times (gear checks like patchwerk / loatheb) eventually, but the majority of vanilla raids do most certainly allow you to go with quite sub-optimal setups successfully. Without overgeared veterans running just another farm run. How do I know? Having played in a guild with god knows what keyboardturners, pvp-specs, more hunters/locks than mages (with pvp/frost specs for many), bear tanks and whatnots, yet still getting well beyond halfway thru naxx. Could probably have done eventually it all, but internal issues caused the guild to quit raiding before that.

[Noxina]

How many Ret Pallies, Arms Warriors, and Enhancement Shaman you think they used? Really?

In these early kills, with hard core guilds? Rather few, of course. That's not my point though.

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what kind of class requires high skillcap in order to do good dmg? In pve the best dmg classes requires nothing but pressing 1 button for long as needed.,

Well, for instance combat sword rogues had a skill cap. One would spam sinister strike, while the other would time it with the swings. One would get more white hits thus more dps, while the other one would do just fine, though canceling a bunch of auto attacks resets due to sword spez.

[jackofwind]

what kind of class requires high skillcap in order to do good dmg? In pve the best dmg classes requires nothing but pressing 1 button for long as needed.,

Eh, high end Fury has a bit more to it than most - rage management (not hard but easy to fuck up a few times over the course of a long fight because it's tedious), stance dancing for OPs, etc.

Hunter actually requires more effort to do high end DPS than, say, Mage. It's just that Hunters also do decent DPS at low gear levels with just auto-attacks, so it's not hard to get passable (but by no means good) output without trying at all. Top end Hunter DPS is achieved by weaving shots in between AAs and also melee weaving at the same time, which is way more involved than all the caster "rotations".

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the only reason this happened is because he played with .... back then .

and hunters have extremly low skillcap to pull average numbers

Yes, but one of the highest skillcaps (for raid damage rotations) to pull the numbers at their top end.

[lummiuster]

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zon...1000#class=DPS

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zon...#class=Healers

These specs are ridiculously overtuned. Classes like hunter, paladin, druid and shaman have absolutely no chance at performing on a viable level. I understand people want no changes but if the tuning looks this bad (PS this tuning is worse than BFA) then I do not understand why the game is getting so much praise.

It's a shame when half of the classes in the game are not viable. I think of this as an absolute development failure.

What do you mean not viable? The game is so easy, raids can be completed by a group of 35 druids. Who cares if your class deals less dps. Help the raid in a different manner. This isnt retail. Balancing is bad. Dont play with scrubs who dont invite you because of your class.

[last1214]

Honestly think the balance is much better than I anticipated it being. I would not be surprised to see an excelent hunter in an average guild be the top dps in thier raid at the moment. part of the problem is only serious and hardcore players have made it to 60, as more get there logs will better reflect the general population instead of a niche group of players.

[ifrah]

Honestly think the balance is much better than I anticipated it being. I would not be surprised to see an excelent hunter in an average guild be the top dps in thier raid at the moment. part of the problem is only serious and hardcore players have made it to 60, as more get there logs will better reflect the general population instead of a niche group of players.

True on the first part, but the rankings have always been, and will always be filled by a rather niche group of minmaxers, which is no issue per se. However, way too many take them as the prerequisite for raid setup, jumping into assumptions that only the class&specs represented in top10 or so are viable.

[kail]

how is it not? it's no problem running anything in Molten Core. People are clearing it under level 60 and less than 40man. No matter what you bring, it will be fine.

MC is effectively LFR difficulty so yes anything is viable. In later raids, leaders will probably be more picky.

[shaunika123]

MC is effectively LFR difficulty so yes anything is viable. In later raids, leaders will probably be more picky.

trust me, later raids wont be much more difficult either, except maybe for a couple like 4 bosses (OURO, Cthun, 4 horsemen and sapphiron)

but that's it.

and we wont be in greens when those raids come out, but decked in the epics of the previous raid

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You can do lfr with any comp you want in bfa.

yeah, thats my point....

classic raids arent difficult, so the balance matters way less than in BFA.

When we talk about extreme challenge of course you can't compare with anything in classic.
Still, on the first kill of azshara I see eleven different dps classes. Same with Jaina.
And we are talking about top end player who can chose between every possible class for their comp to do the optimal dps.

one boss doesnt tell the whole picture though.

remember mythic ghuun where the boss was literally unkillable without 4 warlocks?

or zul single handedly got sub rogues nerfed?

or how most of the uldir bosses couldnt have more than 2-3 melees in the raid?

cant say much about the newer raids because I quit right after uldir, but my guildmates are still whining how broken shadowpriests are in the new raid for example.

and legion wasnt different either...
remember rogue/druid stacking in ToS?
SP stacking in EN?

now I'm not gonna say BFA ISNT more balanced than classic, but for a game that spent 15 years taking out every bit of fun in the name of balance, it sure hasnt improved THAT much.

[Warning]

Ret could be fixed as easily as adding a new libram that procs like 15% melee attackspeed on judgment to the loot table, reducing the manacost of consecrate by like 15% and some small talent tweaks. Lets say Two handed spec goes to 3/6/9% and conviction becomes 5% crit 5% attackspeed. Ret aura baseline buffed by like 50% so its not garbage and the talents improving it might actually be worth it. All set. Classic improved and no damage done.

Raids won't be trivialized more than they are because bringing a ret will still be a dps loss compared to bringing a fury or mage, but at least they'll not be terrible.

[Nite92]

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zon...1000#class=DPS

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zon...#class=Healers

These specs are ridiculously overtuned. Classes like hunter, paladin, druid and shaman have absolutely no chance at performing on a viable level. I understand people want no changes but if the tuning looks this bad (PS this tuning is worse than BFA) then I do not understand why the game is getting so much praise.

It's a shame when half of the classes in the game are not viable. I think of this as an absolute development failure.

You know that you linked the dps of priests - these priests are shadow not holy. 10/10 troll 1/10 effort

[bmjclark]

I don't disagree completely with what you say and agree I would never put feral as competing with mages and rogues. But one thing I would never use as an argument in this precise case is raid logs. 3 reasons:

1) The best players wanting to achieve the highest DPS will roll war / rogue / mage period.

2) Feral DPS as a much higher skill cap than classes in 1) because of powershift timing, shred positioning and management / energy management. And less rewarding as numbers are lower. Pushing further away players to 1)

3) Pretty sure the few actually playing feral dps are mostly not using 50% attack speed weapon systematically. Most could be spec hybrid tank / cat with UF as weapon and using bleeds for what we know

The top feral druid on ragnaros did half the dps of the top mage and he used 2 charges of crowd control pummeler to even manage that. Yes, thats one log. But the top log on warcraft log is far and above what 99% of feral druids will manage to do. The fact is that even as a feral druid, probably the best of the hybrid dps, you're looking at doing half the dps of a normal dps spec while putting in 4 times as much effort.

[Daffan]

Yeah Ret and Enhancement are fantastic too! What a guy.

Enhance is a better Warrior!

[Pigy2]

Warrior has DPS-DPS-Tank ... Shaman has HEALING-DPS-DPS ... I don't see how that is much different. It just so happens that Warrior is the only "proper" tank and they also have 2 high tier DPS specs AND are good in pvp... meanwhile... some of the other hybrids are taxes more heavily than others...

Warriors weren't considered hybrids back in vanilla, hybrids were specifically healing capable classes.

Which again makes sense, since healing is extremely strong in vanilla/classic.

[rohoz]

Ret could be fixed as easily as adding a new libram that procs like 15% melee attackspeed on judgment to the loot table, reducing the manacost of consecrate by like 15% and some small talent tweaks. Lets say Two handed spec goes to 3/6/9% and conviction becomes 5% crit 5% attackspeed. Ret aura baseline buffed by like 50% so its not garbage and the talents improving it might actually be worth it. All set. Classic improved and no damage done.

Raids won't be trivialized more than they are because bringing a ret will still be a dps loss compared to bringing a fury or mage, but at least they'll not be terrible.

hashtag no changes

[crewskater]

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zon...1000#class=DPS

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zon...#class=Healers

These specs are ridiculously overtuned. Classes like hunter, paladin, druid and shaman have absolutely no chance at performing on a viable level. I understand people want no changes but if the tuning looks this bad (PS this tuning is worse than BFA) then I do not understand why the game is getting so much praise.

It's a shame when half of the classes in the game are not viable. I think of this as an absolute development failure.

You forgot to mention gear score, mythic + rating, and arena ranking. Oh wait, you've never played classic before. GG