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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Maudib View Post
    I agree the cleave groups have had a detrimental impact on the game... moreso on PvP servers than PvE... it has taken a decent number of people out of the world and put them in instances. Still, there is a plethora of people who do not participate in them... because they are enjoying the game.

    The thing is.. you can't stop it. People are gonna do what they want to do. I suspect they will get bored of Clasica and leave.. or maybe they will roll an alt and experience the way it should... that is.. if they are mature and disciplined enough to not always take the easy way.

    The ones who read the book instead of the Cliff Notes.
    Why are some people so stuck with "people experiencing it THE RIGHT WAY"? Isn't vanilla famous for "I play the way I want with the build I want" ? Why would it mean, if they picked up fastest route, that they are not mature or disciplined? They might as well be very mature and very disciplined, because aoe grind for hours is not extremely fun for most, therefore requires discipline. Also it is smart way, because of all the drops, it's quite good source of income while overcoming competition and world dangers.

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    The main thing I'm noticing though is there's this entire "meta" that creeped out out of nowhere in the past month or so, when before it was never mentioned at all in any guide, forum, Reddit post or media as far back as has been able to tell. Not only this AOE cleave stuff but tanks going into dungeons and tanking with a 2H because they can (which apparently "was" how it was in 1.x from what people say, except there's no information stating that and in fact are stating the opposite).

    It's a bit hypocritical if you ask me. The #NoChanges crowd dogpiled and jumped on anyone who suggested things be different to accommodate the things we've learned, but somehow this underlying meta changes that popped up are fine and dandy despite being drastic changes to how things were known and expected to play out.

    It's just interesting how this came up out of nowhere, and has almost universally been accepted when nearly every piece of information from private servers beforehand said no such thing, yet somehow "everyone" knows that's the way it is. Something is fishy here and I'm not sure what, but there's not only a lot of misinformation being peddled around but a change in mindset that didn't seem to exist until the day Classic launched.
    You don't tank with a 2hander, you DW. Yes that has been a thing since vanilla. It is so mainstream you can find it in guides like icy viens. A shield gives you 8-12% physical damage resistance and access to occasional blocking, which isn't exactly very powerful in vanilla, and both are useless against spells. More damage = more threat. 8% less physical damage isn't going to keep you alive if the thing would get you low enough for it to matter in the first place. All dungeons can and should be tanked DW so long as you are not below the mobs level.
    Last edited by Firefall; 2019-09-21 at 07:46 PM.

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefall View Post
    You don't tank with a 2hander, you DW. Yes that has been a thing since vanilla. It is so mainstream you can find it in guides like icy viens. A shield gives you 8-12% physical damage resistance and access to occasional blocking, which isn't exactly very powerful in vanilla, and both are useless against spells. More damage = more threat. 8% less physical damage isn't going to keep you alive if the thing would get you low enough for it to matter in the first place. All dungeons can and should be tanked DW so long as you are not below the mobs level.
    it 100% hasn't been a thing since vanilla

    it's a pserver thing that leeched into the game, pirate server meta isn't vanilla meta.

    but sure, go off.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    The main thing I'm noticing though is there's this entire "meta" that creeped out out of nowhere in the past month or so, when before it was never mentioned at all in any guide, forum, Reddit post or media as far back as has been able to tell. Not only this AOE cleave stuff but tanks going into dungeons and tanking with a 2H because they can (which apparently "was" how it was in 1.x from what people say, except there's no information stating that and in fact are stating the opposite).

    It's a bit hypocritical if you ask me. The #NoChanges crowd dogpiled and jumped on anyone who suggested things be different to accommodate the things we've learned, but somehow this underlying meta changes that popped up are fine and dandy despite being drastic changes to how things were known and expected to play out.

    It's just interesting how this came up out of nowhere, and has almost universally been accepted when nearly every piece of information from private servers beforehand said no such thing, yet somehow "everyone" knows that's the way it is. Something is fishy here and I'm not sure what, but there's not only a lot of misinformation being peddled around but a change in mindset that didn't seem to exist until the day Classic launched.
    When I played a warrior during Vanilla, I tanked in whatever way made the run go the easiest, often times that meant sword and board, but occasionally that meant with a two hander using sweeping strikes with whirlwind and cleave. I never did anything crazy difficult that way, but I would do the Onyxia escort solo (as in no healer, no cc) as a warrior with a Zin'Rok and a mix of MC/ZG gear.

    There’s a number of people yelling about how Classic is no changes, and it is the game we were asking for, and they’re right. Classic is closely replicating patch 1.12, which contains many changes and fixes to the game, it’s sort of like if people were complaining Uldir is too easy when 8.3 comes out.

  5. #265
    People played like this in vanilla too, people just got nostalgic with time and forgot about it and/or streamers never talked about it because "Muh everything was better".

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    Quote Originally Posted by rohoz View Post
    it 100% hasn't been a thing since vanilla

    it's a pserver thing that leeched into the game, pirate server meta isn't vanilla meta.

    but sure, go off.
    It very much was a thing in vanilla.

    No matter how much people may try to push the narrative that vanilla players didn't know what they were doing, it'll never be true. It was only true in early levels. You may notice that the vast majority of old "My time in vanilla" stories are with the lower level dungeons, or grouped with friends they got in those lower level dungeons who didn't mind you playing a subpar spec. Because at higher levels people got their shit together and pugs wanted good classes.
    Last edited by Toppy; 2019-09-22 at 10:41 AM.
    World needs more Goblin Warriors https://i.imgur.com/WKs8aJA.jpg

  6. #266
    the only bad thing about classic is v3t3r@n clowns who think everyone has to play like 15y ago and fit their retarded memory

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Thereturn View Post
    Everywhere you look its people asking for mage aoe or cleave comp or ridiculous level requirements, like 46+ for things like ZF.

    The result of years worth creating a playerbase with a "400ilvl minimum for a mythic +1 zerg derp" mentality.

    And yes, i know i can make my own groups. Who cares. Its about retail mentality seeping into classic, which sucks balls.

    Thoughts?
    Actually I'm going to replace that with "Late TBC/Wrath talent updates ruined Classic dungeons"

    When those hit in TBC you went from "CC, focus tank target, misdirect / tricks X" to the "LFM Shattered Halls Pally Tank - AoE fast run!" Went from most heroics taking an hour or so to about 30 minutes, if that.

    By the time we hit Wrath, you had pulls mostly consisting of tanks that just couldn't die to anything and could hold full aggro with a thunderclap type ability while the rest of the party just AoE'd everything - dungeons and raid alike. When Wrath became seasonal with badge updates ensuring everyone was running dungeon spam, tweaks were made to mob density and boss difficulty to ensure that your average run was 20~ minutes or less.

    Cata tried to dial back from that into a Classic-esque style dungeon approach... that lasted all of one patch before it was nerfed out of the game into oblivion. MoP made Heroic dungeons so insultingly easy that 5 dps could do that, at launch without being geared.

    So you have more like 10+ years of WoW history that changed the player mentality and ruined Classic dungeons, not M+.

  8. #268
    This is going to sound elitist and condescending, but could it be that gamers in 2004 were just better gamers, players, and people?

    It isn’t retail, it’s this entire generation of gamers who have no respect, wanna zoom through everything, and generally are quick to be rude and insult.

    The cupcake generation of millennials show their absolute worst side in gaming

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    Quote Originally Posted by Estravolt View Post
    Are you trying to say classic is hard?
    The content can be easier, but more unforgiving. Gearing up is absolutely harder in classic than retail since retail showers you in epics

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post

    Gearing up is absolutely harder in classic than retail since retail showers you in epics
    Only if you measure gear in color and not ilvl/stats

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Estravolt View Post
    Only if you measure gear in color and not ilvl/stats
    Take the color out entirely. Go ahead and tell me you can get full raid gear in classic faster than retail, because that’s just not true

    I recently walked away from BFA as a MT (for classic) and by the time your guild is on the 2nd or 3rd boss in mythic; you are pretty decked out.

    By the time you are killing the 3rd or 4th boss in MC; you’ll be lucky to see a single drop a month you win

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    Take the color out entirely. Go ahead and tell me you can get full raid gear in classic faster than retail, because that’s just not true

    I recently walked away from BFA as a MT (for classic) and by the time your guild is on the 2nd or 3rd boss in mythic; you are pretty decked out.

    By the time you are killing the 3rd or 4th boss in MC; you’ll be lucky to see a single drop a month you win
    And that naturally isn't because the bosses drop a retardedly small number of items compared to the raidsize?

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Estravolt View Post
    And that naturally isn't because the bosses drop a retardedly small number of items compared to the raidsize?
    I didn’t give the why, just the reality of the situation.

    Yes, gear is much more exclusive in vanilla and it makes the gear have infinitely more meaning

    The biggest problem to me with retail is it devolved into play the patch, not the expac.

    Imagine stepping into tbc the week your guild starts illidan and being ready the next week by skipping 90% of the content. That’s retail. There’s no real progression ladder because each patch devalues the previous content and it makes the gear meaningless. Combined with m+, where you farm the same gear season after season; and retail is more diablo 3 than Everquest

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    This is going to sound elitist and condescending, but could it be that gamers in 2004 were just better gamers, players, and people?

    It isn’t retail, it’s this entire generation of gamers who have no respect, wanna zoom through everything, and generally are quick to be rude and insult.

    The cupcake generation of millennials show their absolute worst side in gaming

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    The content can be easier, but more unforgiving. Gearing up is absolutely harder in classic than retail since retail showers you in epics
    This is simply retarded, i welcome you to watch the world firsts from vanilla, un case you don't want to, people sucked ass, saying that players back then are better isnt even delusional, it's plain stupid.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    I recently walked away from BFA as a MT (for classic) and by the time your guild is on the 2nd or 3rd boss in mythic; you are pretty decked out.

    By the time you are killing the 3rd or 4th boss in MC; you’ll be lucky to see a single drop a month you win
    1. say THANK YOU to personal loot, because in LEGION you could raid for months without a single raid-loot with the widespread lootcouncil shitshow.

    2. you are comparing MC gearing with mythic gearing. Compare UBRS/strat/scholo gearing with N/HC BfA and it makes more sense. Sure retail would gear you allways a bit faster with personal loot, since only items drop that someone could use unlike classic's ANYTHING can drop and EVERYONE can roll on it.

    Gearing from LEGION -> BfA changed a lot with PL and with the coronation of M+ to be a real endgame content in gearing, raiding overall took a well deserved drop. You have no choices in Classic (RAID-OR-DIE) and as soon as you fed up with 1 drop / quarter in classic you are done with the game.

    GL and HF
    -

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    This is simply retarded, i welcome you to watch the world firsts from vanilla, un case you don't want to, people sucked ass, saying that players back then are better isnt even delusional, it's plain stupid.
    Go watch those videos again yourself and realize they likely accomplished it on crap machines with 10 fps, and no guides to lean on

    Yeah, I stand by my statement.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    Imagine stepping into tbc the week your guild starts illidan and being ready the next week by skipping 90% of the content. That’s retail. There’s no real progression ladder because each patch devalues the previous content and it makes the gear meaningless. Combined with m+, where you farm the same gear season after season; and retail is more diablo 3 than Everquest
    You do realise this was changed because raiders got fed up with having to boost every new raider through all the content in hopes of getting him up to speed asap?

    The options were either that, or poach and cause drama.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    1. say THANK YOU to personal loot, because in LEGION you could raid for months without a single raid-loot with the widespread lootcouncil shitshow.

    2. you are comparing MC gearing with mythic gearing. Compare UBRS/strat/scholo gearing with N/HC BfA and it makes more sense. Sure retail would gear you allways a bit faster with personal loot, since only items drop that someone could use unlike classic's ANYTHING can drop and EVERYONE can roll on it.

    Gearing from LEGION -> BfA changed a lot with PL and with the coronation of M+ to be a real endgame content in gearing, raiding overall took a well deserved drop. You have no choices in Classic (RAID-OR-DIE) and as soon as you fed up with 1 drop / quarter in classic you are done with the game.

    GL and HF
    I thought the loot system in legion was infinitely better than bfa.

    Mythic raiding was hurt by personal loot and that’s a fact.

    Personal loot of bfa is more diablo 3 the arpg than Everquest or classic wow.

    I’d rather raid 6 months in vanilla with no drops, than play retail and be geared for mythic in a week. Zzzzz

    To each their own tho, gl and have fun yourself. Have a great day

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    Quote Originally Posted by Estravolt View Post
    You do realise this was changed because raiders got fed up with having to boost every new raider through all the content in hopes of getting him up to speed asap?

    The options were either that, or poach and cause drama.
    I was there, I remember having to take people through ssc and tk again for bt..., still was a better system because every raid in tbc was played until the day the expac ended. The content all had value in the world

    Compare that with today’s game where it’s play the patch and only the patch, and it’s a problem. It’s more diablo 3 than eq and that’s not what wow was meant to be

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    I was there, I remember having to take people through ssc and tk again for bt..., still was a better system because every raid in tbc was played until the day the expac ended. The content all had value in the world

    Compare that with today’s game where it’s play the patch and only the patch, and it’s a problem. It’s more diablo 3 than eq and that’s not what wow was meant to be
    It was "played" i.e exploded weekly while hoping you'd never have to return.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Estravolt View Post
    It was "played" i.e exploded weekly while hoping you'd never have to return.
    Isn’t content that’s played still better than invalidated content with each patch?

    There’s nothing wrong with you outgearing and passing certain content; but there is a problem with it when Blizz forces everyone forward every patch and basically erases the previous content

    It removes the ladder climb of beat a to unlock b, b to c, etc

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Estravolt View Post
    It was "played" i.e exploded weekly while hoping you'd never have to return.
    All the big guilds on Destromath-EU/Stormreaver-EU/Stormscale-EU just went the easy way and poached geared/attuned players from the other guilds. Lots of raiding guilds got destroyed and outside of casual+familiy-friendly guilds with loyal players it was a very toxic time in raiding.

    Basicly if you played any wanted class/spec (shadow priest) and you were attuned for BT you got spammed with guildinvites and garanteed 4piece-T6 offers to let your current guild go.

    The aftermath of TBC raiding was positive for casual raiding guilds in WotLK, because they got a bunch of TBC-progression raiders from dead guilds as new members.
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