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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by dacoolist View Post
    As much as I enjoy that classic talent tree.. getting rid of pvp talents seem a bit much
    They don't have to get rid of them, just merge them into the classes' toolkit and give players more choices that aren't locked behind 1 activity.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by dacoolist View Post
    As much as I enjoy that classic talent tree.. getting rid of pvp talents seem a bit much
    the classic talent tree and getting rid of bfa pvp talent that were baseline spells before have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

    asking to get rid of the pvp talent that were baseline spells before means we want them back as baseline spells....

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    A real progression ladder like vanilla and tbc where you have to beat raid A to get to b, B to c, etc

    Instead of 4 different difficulties per single raid, I’d rather have multiple raids at once of varying difficulty where we work our way up the ladder or not

    Like vanilla or tbc

    AP is something that feels more in line with diablo 3 than wow and combined with personal loot, m+, lfr/lfg and rng loot... is it any wonder why a lot of players like myself don’t play because it’s too diablo 3 and not enough eq?
    That's not the same thing though. AP is a response to people wanting to feel like they are always progressing their character when they do content out in the world and in the dungeons. Every dungeon you and I do and most WQ's gives me and you progression regardless if we gain loot or not... having the raid like you describe, not much so. Same reason why we have 10k rep chests... you always work towards something when you do minor things. That gives long term progression. Even with raids there is a ceiling, where progression ends. The point of long term progression goals is that there is always something that makes you little bit stronger.

    Why you play or doesn't play is up to you and you alone. Doesn't change the fact that players want to be able to always have something to do. Ofc there are players that want an end goal where you are "finished", others do not.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Briselody View Post
    The legendary RNG only mattered to people who obsessed over BiS. For those of us just playing the game for fun receiving a random new, gameplay changing piece of gear just going about your everyday business was a pretty great concept.
    You must love BfA then. I do like that design and that's why I don't mind BfA like other people who rage about the azerite armor. If I don't get anything I get to play my class normally, if I do get something then it's a nice addition that's great but not really mandatory.

    As a casual player I think from that perspective BfA is a vast improvement over Legion. Though to my personal tastes they are both inferior products to their predecessors.
    "I have the most loyal fanboys. Did you ever see that? Where I could stand by Thoradin's Wall and massacre my own people and I wouldn't lose any fanboys. It's like incredible." - Sylvanas Windrunner

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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    That's not the same thing though. AP is a response to people wanting to feel like they are always progressing their character when they do content out in the world and in the dungeons. Every dungeon you and I do and most WQ's gives me and you progression regardless if we gain loot or not... having the raid like you describe, not much so. Same reason why we have 10k rep chests... you always work towards something when you do minor things. That gives long term progression. Even with raids there is a ceiling, where progression ends. The point of long term progression goals is that there is always something that makes you little bit stronger.

    Why you play or doesn't play is up to you and you alone. Doesn't change the fact that players want to be able to always have something to do. Ofc there are players that want an end goal where you are "finished", others do not.
    an important part of EVERY RPG is the end. It needs a beginning, a middle, and an end. That's one of classic's biggest strengths, imho, is that it DOES have a definitive end point.

    The hamster wheel approach doesn't work for me in an MMORPG. It's more for diablo 3, and it's a big reason why retail wow is more D3 than EQ today.

    Some of us prefer the older approach that offers long term character growth rather than seasonal rental gear

  6. #26
    many years ago there was a post on the official forums (maybe during BC or Wrath?) that PVP talets were not something they wanted to do because they didn't want the classes playing differently in PVP vs PVE (IMO the old Dev's were much smarter than the current batch....)

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Dadwen View Post
    many years ago there was a post on the official forums (maybe during BC or Wrath?) that PVP talets were not something they wanted to do because they didn't want the classes playing differently in PVP vs PVE (IMO the old Dev's were much smarter than the current batch....)
    that's because the old devs cut their teeth on older, RPG's like EQ, MUDs like gemstone, AD&D, etc... they built their game like a living dungeons and dragons world where you could go as far as you wanted, or not.

    Retail puts it front and center that they are a video game, not a world, and if you'd like to do any content plz click here and receive your personal loot.

    It's more Diablo 3 than EQ, and in a way feels built for shareholders more than gamers.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyral View Post
    You must love BfA then. I do like that design and that's why I don't mind BfA like other people who rage about the azerite armor. If I don't get anything I get to play my class normally, if I do get something then it's a nice addition that's great but not really mandatory.
    I disagree completely. The Azerite armor traits are pointless "click one to make the alert go away and then never think about it again". They're all random procs that you don't even notice go off unless you're paying attention. I've felt absolutely no reason to go after AP this entire expansion. I was excited to level up my weapon in Legion.
    Xal'atath whispers: Your allies consider me a bad influence. Yet all I've ever done is speed you along the path you chose.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    an important part of EVERY RPG is the end. It needs a beginning, a middle, and an end. That's one of classic's biggest strengths, imho, is that it DOES have a definitive end point.

    The hamster wheel approach doesn't work for me in an MMORPG. It's more for diablo 3, and it's a big reason why retail wow is more D3 than EQ today.

    Some of us prefer the older approach that offers long term character growth rather than seasonal rental gear
    Like Ironman said:

    "Part of the journey is the end"

    I don't mind doing the grind but there's no logic to it if there's no end... it's just an illusion of progression.

    See artifact weapons and notice how many hours people dumped into them just to get a artifact 0.5 in BfA

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    A real progression ladder like vanilla and tbc where you have to beat raid A to get to b, B to c, etc

    Instead of 4 different difficulties per single raid, I’d rather have multiple raids at once of varying difficulty where we work our way up the ladder or not

    Like vanilla or tbc

    AP is something that feels more in line with diablo 3 than wow and combined with personal loot, m+, lfr/lfg and rng loot... is it any wonder why a lot of players like myself don’t play because it’s too diablo 3 and not enough eq?
    So in other words you want less content to be available to do. To transplant your BC analogy to more modern times a full half of raiders who would have nothing beyond EN and a boss or two into ToV. About half of the remainder would be able to do NH. About 10% would get to see ToS. And only the hardcore raiders who did SWP would get to do Antorus? Sounds like a recipe for disaster.
    Last edited by cparle87; 2019-09-18 at 02:25 PM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    So in other words you want less content to be available to do.
    less diablo 3 like insta gratification content? absolutely

    more wow classic or EQ like designed content? absolutely

  12. #32
    Last I checked my warrior still had spell reflect - I mean it's been a minute since I was in Prot spec but I do remember it being there. What wasn't there was mass spell-reflect.

    Anyway, I think the PvP talent trees are cool and make a lot of sense. They can allow more homogenization over on the PvP side of things which will keep the PvE side specs feeling individualized. Bigger problem is they just give cool crap to the PvP trees instead of generic stuff.

    Also while I think war-mode is a net-good, I do miss the world PvPvE areas from Legion. They were always fun, gave PvE folks like me a way to access base level PvP cosmetics and encouraged world play. Plus you could quickly leave them if say there was a group in elite PvP or mythic raid gear just group stomping the area.

  13. #33
    Bake them into the current talent tree and have a new talent every 10 lvls instead of 1 per 15 or something around that. Most of them improve gameplay significantly that its a pain to lose them when having to raid or turn warmode off.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by xZerocidex View Post
    QUOTE=Haidaes;51611452]You should start a dream journal on your personal blog, I don't think this forum is the right place for that.

    That's not for you to decide, seems the mods don't have a problem. You should be the last one talking about what isn't allowed in the forums since you are trolling.
    Well like the moderation here you use the word trolling wrong, I just made fun of you and your out of context burp of a thread. As far as threads go you went straight into rambling about something that was obviously on your mind without any context. You also didn't pose any question or other hook for discussion, you just posted your drivel in manner that is even unbefitting of most chatroom etiquettes and expect that a fruitful discussion miraculously springs from that. As far as random demands and ideas go, we have plenty of threads where this style would have fitted better. But you are right I'm not a mod, so my only means are to make fun of you. Well, I could also post a long winded explanation about why I think your thread is bad and has nothing worthy of discussion, like this post, but where is the fun in that?

    As for the content of your thread, since there is no actual request for a discussion of any sort, I will just divine one and tell you why you have now clue, will that work for you? To start off PvP talents exist so that some things that only work properly in PvP can be used there, where they might have been flat out removed otherwise. While the implementation is certainly not the holy grail of immersion, it's still better than not having these for people that enjoy PvP. Blizzard tried to juggle these talents and the past and failed, which seemingly lead to the current implementation. You can of course argue that Blizzard caring about broken talents is misguided and another aspect of their all too common over-engineering these days, but that is a discussion for another time.

    As for AP grinds, all I can tell you is that you are flat out delusional if you think that these systems will suddenly vanish from the game. The way you worded your OP made it seem like that was already a given, to which I just say, no, far from it. Blizzard tried for over a decade to create an post-max level progression system. They finally have found one and it's most likely going to stick around. As someone else already said, what would you replace it with? Maybe borrow paragon levels from D3? Well, another D3 system is sure to be well received in WoW. Just abandon the notion altogether again? Sure that is an option, but that pretty much leaves us with only iLvl as a means of character progression, and that one is also burning out people by the cart load at the moment, since every patch is already a complete reset. I mean as a player I would like nothing more, but Blizzard seems to operate under the directive that the MAUs need to be keept as high as possible, so how would you generate them other with grind content? They certainly have never managed to constantly supply is with fresh content at a pace that we wouldn't burn through within a day or two. That leaves us with time gating, which is all too transparent, and people by now have realized you can also just skip that, cancel your sub and wait until all the content is finally out.

    Unless Blizzard has some major change in company policy nothing of that seems likely, including the PvP changes, so it's great to know that you want to see that for the next expansion (I guess that was your point anyway?), but it's highly unlikely.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Briselody View Post
    I disagree completely. The Azerite armor traits are pointless "click one to make the alert go away and then never think about it again". They're all random procs that you don't even notice go off unless you're paying attention. I've felt absolutely no reason to go after AP this entire expansion. I was excited to level up my weapon in Legion.
    The AP system is another thing, you mentioned legendaries and the comparison would be azerite traits. Traits from azerite are a bonus which makes them not mandatory at all, perfect for casual play. In Legion they removed so much from classes to excuse their changes, like removing Rend and OP from arms to turn them into arms talents, removing Disarm and Spell Reflect to turn them into pvp talents, removing Sudden Death to turn it into a legendary. When a legendary dropped it wasn't a "nice game changer" it was finally getting baseline functionality back to your class. There was nothing exciting about it, just getting something finally fixed.

    But as for AP, the weapon traits would have been a nice addition... as a leveling system. Getting to level cap and still having to keep grinding was just padding, might as well just added 20 levels that expac, though that would have been a shorter grind than the awful AP system on release. Not to mention all the issues with the AP items on release like not even have a vendor value, taking up bag space, etc.

    Legion wasn't the second coming that people imagine it being today.
    Last edited by Hyral; 2019-09-18 at 02:38 PM.
    "I have the most loyal fanboys. Did you ever see that? Where I could stand by Thoradin's Wall and massacre my own people and I wouldn't lose any fanboys. It's like incredible." - Sylvanas Windrunner

    "If you kill your enemies, they win." - Anduin Wrynn

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Curious what people want instead of AP which is a response to players wanting to have a long term progression goal.
    What is the alternative that will satisfy that need? Genuine question.
    If the necklace would only increase its item level and nothing else, no unlocking powers or anything like that.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by xZerocidex View Post
    Like Ironman said:

    "Part of the journey is the end"

    I don't mind doing the grind but there's no logic to it if there's no end... it's just an illusion of progression.

    See artifact weapons and notice how many hours people dumped into them just to get a artifact 0.5 in BfA
    agreed, and it's made exponentially worse because the gear matters LESS in bfa than any other point in wow history because it's become play the patch, not the expac. There's so many catch up mechanics in game, and it basically resets the ladder for everyone to be on equal footing every patch which gives it even more of a diablo 3 seasonal feeling and in an mmorpg, renting your gear for just a few months at best and then farming the same gear in M+ next season feels wrong

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    an important part of EVERY RPG is the end. It needs a beginning, a middle, and an end. That's one of classic's biggest strengths, imho, is that it DOES have a definitive end point.

    The hamster wheel approach doesn't work for me in an MMORPG. It's more for diablo 3, and it's a big reason why retail wow is more D3 than EQ today.

    Some of us prefer the older approach that offers long term character growth rather than seasonal rental gear
    Sounds more like it's important to you rather than what's important in an RPG. RPG as a genre has nothing to do with it ending or not. Even old school RPGs have virtually infinite levels for example just that it increases in xp requirement so it's not feasible to grind for it, but any action you do progresses your character in that case levels. AP works the same as old school levels. The end in most RPG is just when you decide to quit or when you run out of quests or things to explore but even then many players tend to mess around after doing all those things and even progress their character which is evident in Skyrim and Fallout and such.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    Well like the moderation here you use the word trolling wrong, I just made fun of you and your out of context burp of a thread. As far as threads go you went straight into rambling about something that was obviously on your mind without any context. You also didn't pose any question or other hook for discussion, you just posted your drivel in manner that is even unbefitting of most chatroom etiquettes and expect that a fruitful discussion miraculously springs from that. As far as random demands and ideas go, we have plenty of threads where this style would have fitted better. But you are right I'm not a mod, so my only means are to make fun of you. Well, I could also post a long winded explanation about why I think your thread is bad and has nothing worthy of discussion, like this post, but where is the fun in that?

    As for the content of your thread, since there is no actual request for a discussion of any sort, I will just divine one and tell you why you have now clue, will that work for you? To start off PvP talents exist so that some things that only work properly in PvP can be used there, where they might have been flat out removed otherwise. While the implementation is certainly not the holy grail of immersion, it's still better than not having these for people that enjoy PvP. Blizzard tried to juggle these talents and the past and failed, which seemingly lead to the current implementation. You can of course argue that Blizzard caring about broken talents is misguided and another aspect of their all too common over-engineering these days, but that is a discussion for another time.

    As for AP grinds, all I can tell you is that you are flat out delusional if you think that these systems will suddenly vanish from the game. The way you worded your OP made it seem like that was already a given, to which I just say, no, far from it. Blizzard tried for over a decade to create an post-max level progression system. They finally have found one and it's most likely going to stick around. As someone else already said, what would you replace it with? Maybe borrow paragon levels from D3? Well, another D3 system is sure to be well received in WoW. Just abandon the notion altogether again? Sure that is an option, but that pretty much leaves us with only iLvl as a means of character progression, and that one is also burning out people by the cart load at the moment, since every patch is already a complete reset. I mean as a player I would like nothing more, but Blizzard seems to operate under the directive that the MAUs need to be keept as high as possible, so how would you generate them other with grind content? They certainly have never managed to constantly supply is with fresh content at a pace that we wouldn't burn through within a day or two. That leaves us with time gating, which is all too transparent, and people by now have realized you can also just skip that, cancel your sub and wait until all the content is finally out.

    Unless Blizzard has some major change in company policy nothing of that seems likely, including the PvP changes, so it's great to know that you want to see that for the next expansion (I guess that was your point anyway?), but it's highly unlikely.
    More like you were trying too hard to act clever and made a fool of yourself in the process.

    Your attempt at "making fun of somebody" was a 2/10 at best. Try again troll.

    Clearly you also can't read, I said IF in the title in a hypothetical sense which bypassed your poor comprehension skills. As for your comment regarding the PvP talents, despite all that has changed PvP, hasn't changed for the better before Legion came. If anything it's gotten worse.

    Just because you can't read don't assume there wasn't a discussion.
    Last edited by xZerocidex; 2019-09-18 at 02:55 PM.

  20. #40
    PvP talent system is one of the good things they have done, why would they remove it? would you as a PvE player, rather to get your class nerfed because its super performance in PvP ? why do I need necrotic strike as an unholy DK in PvE anyway? a lot of PvP talents are either useless in PvE or will be OP in a mythic raid which will result in an instant nerf, making it useless.
    If they nerf a specific PvP spell I want it to be of PvP reasons and not because 3 players abused it in a single fight of a raid and its OP in that fight now.
    Last edited by LuminaL; 2019-09-18 at 02:54 PM.

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