Loot Council v. Point systems like EPGP/DKP/etc. - What are your thoughts?

[AeneasBK]

Honestly for Classic at this stage I'd have thought GDKP would be best.

You bid gold on the item whoever bids the highest pays for that item. At the end of the raid all gold generated this way* is distributed evenly amongst attendees. People who suck at making gold will have enough within a few raids to bid for an item they want.

*If its a pure guild run every week, a tax could be applied to pay for the MTs flask of Titans; but that's about it.

[Karlz0rz]

I can't remember if it was with my current guild before we moved to loot council, but I remember at some point we had "hidden" bidding with a DKP system, which was quite interesting. You were allowed to bid once for the item, and the highest bid won.
You would then have to "value" the item based on your own needs etc.
I still prefer loot council, but that one was interesting! ^^

[HordeFanboy]

LC is better because meme specs dont get free raid gear.

[xuros]

Is the guild paying for your subscription?

I have seen firsthand how Loot Council can be abused, so i am a much bigger fan of DKP.

Yeah I've been a officer in a loot council guild and I've seen how bad it can be abused as well. I remember officers giving loot to officers and friends of officers before everyone else. I'm sure its not that bad in all LC guilds but why take that chance. The only gear that needs defaulting is maybe resist gear to tanks first but thats it. DKP is best imo since it rewards those who show up. Why reward that "top player" who only raids 2 out of the 4 nights a week you raid?

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Group progression mate. You are in the guild, guild has interest of investing in best people. Simple. Ofc, shit happens and bad investments happen,LC is smarter in that regard. DKP are for people who are more oriented in their well being rather than their guild. Have seen such players in guilds every tier. "But it is bis for me" - but your performance, regardless of gear is lower than those two other DKs.

And when that Best Player you funneled gear into quits? The quitting player scenario coin can be flipped to both sides mate.

[Nefastus]

DKP, no doubt. A player has to be mad to enter a guild with a "loot council" system. We know very well how it goes with officers and guild masters. In a game filled with teenagers and young adults its hard to expect them to be imparcial when it comes to the leadership of the guild. I mean its already hard when it comes to politicians with serious stuff.

[erifwodahs]

Yeah I've been a officer in a loot council guild and I've seen how bad it can be abused as well. I remember officers giving loot to officers and friends of officers before everyone else. I'm sure its not that bad in all LC guilds but why take that chance. The only gear that needs defaulting is maybe resist gear to tanks first but thats it. DKP is best imo since it rewards those who show up. Why reward that "top player" who only raids 2 out of the 4 nights a week you raid?

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And when that Best Player you funneled gear into quits? The quitting player scenario coin can be flipped to both sides mate.

I said shit investments happen, but LC can take care of progression way better than points systems. That is a fact. It can also worst misused system too, but that is for the trust of the raiders. DKP sucks for me, because someone can just outbid me on 30% upgrade for their 6% upgrade or if I just got an amazing upgrade, that means I don't have any points left for next upgrade, which might be only a small one for otherss

[khalltusk]

You could try just rolling for gear in classic? No drama that way.

[AeneasBK]

I can't remember if it was with my current guild before we moved to loot council, but I remember at some point we had "hidden" bidding with a DKP system, which was quite interesting. You were allowed to bid once for the item, and the highest bid won.
You would then have to "value" the item based on your own needs etc.
I still prefer loot council, but that one was interesting! ^^

I was in a guild using that system on a pirate server but as I was often the only raiding warlock who turned up and we had an abundance of warlock tier dropping each week I was 7/8 t1 and still had the capped amount of DKP to secret bid on the Staff of Wossname when it dropped from Golemagg.

I agree though that when you know you're bidding on an item against another(s) and you have to play the "value" game of second guessing how much they want to bid on the item compared to how much they have etc. versus the same for yourself it's kinda fun

[ThrashMetalFtw]

In a perfect world with a progress oriented guild and good officers, LC is the only option. Nothing more to discuss.

In a less serious guild an EPGP/DKP system can work. This obviously needs to be a system with fixed prices for all items, and WITH DECAY every reset. And in the end, the Officers must be able to overwrite the EPGP whenever they are seeing obvious abuse of the system, like people passing on obvious upgrades to save for "that one BiS item".
With the fixed prices, point decay, and Officers having the final answer in the end, an EPGP/DKP system can be good.

An oldschool DKP system without fixed prices or decay, is obviously the single worst system one can have, and if your guild is going to use that shit, you better start complaining (or just leave and find a guild with the common sense to have a proper loot system). Raidrolling every single item, regardless of stats, is probably still a better system than "classic DKP".

[Collegeguy]

I like DKP better because...its better for me.

But Loot Council is "smarter" for the long run.

Because, and im part of the problem, for example, i will quit raiding after Zul Gurub.
As you can see, its bad giving me loot...because i will quit later on.

So loot Council exists to prevent people like me getting all the loot

Never underestimate stupidity. Problem with loot council is that even the smartest people have moments of weakness and can be flawed.

I've seen guilds fall apart on loot council. We had a BIS trinket once drop that had never dropped before and never would drop again. Loot council decided to have every melee roll for it. Why roll? Idk because we stupid? Someone's gf that never raided and never even played the game won the roll. This was as good as sharding it.

Needless to say, there was lots of drama the coming weeks of people losing complete faith in the loot council and leaving.

All it takes is one moment for a loot council to fuck up for people to lose faith. Likely, the loot council just didn't know how important this trinket was, but it will happen.

[Big Thanks]

Never underestimate stupidity. Problem with loot council is that even the smartest people have moments of weakness and can be flawed.

I've seen guilds fall apart on loot council. We had a BIS trinket once drop that had never dropped before and never would drop again. Loot council decided to have every melee roll for it. Why roll? Idk because we stupid? Someone's gf that never raided and never even played the game won the roll. This was as good as sharding it.

Needless to say, there was lots of drama the coming weeks of people losing complete faith in the loot council and leaving.

All it takes is one moment for a loot council to fuck up for people to lose faith. Likely, the loot council just didn't know how important this trinket was, but it will happen.

Yeah Loot Council is 100% more prone to drama.

But what about DKP bid wars?
I remember people bidding well knowing they would lose because they knew the other person was desperate.
Just so the other person loses a lot of DKP on the item.
Wasnt this a thing also?

[Tic Tacs]

dkp system rewards attendance, loot council rewards the chosen few primarily, you decide.

[Collegeguy]

Yeah Loot Council is 100% more prone to drama.

But what about DKP bid wars?
I remember people bidding well knowing they would lose because they knew the other person was desperate.
Just so the other person loses a lot of DKP on the item.
Wasnt this a thing also?

The best method is a blend in both. DKP and LC. There is a conversation when something drops, we discuss out loud where dps gear could go first, where healing gear could go first. Everyone has a say. This way RET paladins that are worthless are not getting something first before someone that can actually dps. Then we make DKP bid.

Once people have some gear, then RETS can get some.

[Denso]

Yeah Loot Council is 100% more prone to drama.

But what about DKP bid wars?
I remember people bidding well knowing they would lose because they knew the other person was desperate.
Just so the other person loses a lot of DKP on the item.
Wasnt this a thing also?

This is why you have hidden bids. Someone tries to bring the price up they might end up getting burned.

[Nobleshield]

EPGP is my favorite. It's just as good as DKP but fixes some of the issues where, even with decay, you can get multiple upgrades before someone else even gets one if you have enough DKP.

Point systems are better IMHO but if you really trust the guild then loot council can work. Loot Council is very communist though; it puts the guild above the person, despite the person needing to get advancement as the entire reason for doing anything in the first place.

[Soisoisoi]

You could try just rolling for gear in classic? No drama that way.

Meme spec gets loot over someone who could actually make use of it (e.g. Ret over Warrior)

Instant drama.

[Kulre]

This is why you have hidden bids. Someone tries to bring the price up they might end up getting burned.

With hidden bids (or any bid) you now have to deal with the problem of collusion. If the warlocks all agree to bid low then they have infinitely more DKP than the mages when they go to bid on the shared items.

[Azerate]

DKP/EPGP is better overall for the whole spectrum of guilds, assuming of course it's not being tampered with in an unfair way. For the casual guilds it has always been point system vs. /roll system, with loot council rarely working.

Loot Council/ML only works in high end guilds populated by progress driven players, who care way more about progression and team success than their personal achievement.

[Jujudrood]

LootCouncil is the best for Progression, but only if you have impartial council members who don't just "give it to their wife/gf/etc" or "well, he made fun of me for dying, so fuck that guy" types of people AND if you have a full team of raiders who are perfectly okay and understanding in the decisions made as to why Person A got X over Person B because it helps the raid as a whole and not just the person in question.
Basically, you need full collaboration and buy-in that it's "Guild over Personal Need", else this becomes a shitfest real quick.

Otherwise, DKP or EPGP are the best bet because it's the closest thing to fair.
Most people raid not to see the content or have fun, but to get gear.
So, do the point system of your choice, let them spend as they see fit, and let the chips fall where they may.
People will still bitch up a storm, so if you are the ML, god help you.

[Hinastorm]

One thing i'll add, loot council leads to degenerate behavior among DPS to pad meters to make themselves look better, to hopefully get more loot. I'd rather not play in a council environment for this, and many other, reasons.

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Honestly for Classic at this stage I'd have thought GDKP would be best.

You bid gold on the item whoever bids the highest pays for that item. At the end of the raid all gold generated this way* is distributed evenly amongst attendees. People who suck at making gold will have enough within a few raids to bid for an item they want.

*If its a pure guild run every week, a tax could be applied to pay for the MTs flask of Titans; but that's about it.

This is a good system for forming a pug raid, but this is a problematic system for a guild for a few obvious reasons. The most obvious being whoever has the most playtime and patience to grind solo gets the most raid loot.

Even with the distribution, the grinders will be back on top for next weeks run.