Loot Council v. Point systems like EPGP/DKP/etc. - What are your thoughts?

[TheWorkingTitle]

What is inherently the better system for distributing loot in your opinion?

I'm of the school of thought that point systems are superior because they are not potentially skewed by bias, favoritism, cliques, and the like. A group of people who most likely have agendas and or unspoken allegiances are flawed and subjective when divvying out loot compared to raiders earning points through being punctual, striving for 100% attendance, and contributing to the raid/guild through various means.

I'd like to hear legitimate reasons as to why LC is better if everyone in the guild is a contributing member of equal worth. If everyone is pulling their weight and doing everything right, how is LC better than a point system? It seems to me that LC is just a way for buddies to gear themselves up while screwing over new members, trials, and or members not in the "good graces" of the all powerful officers/gm.

[Big Thanks]

I like DKP better because...its better for me.

But Loot Council is "smarter" for the long run.

Because, and im part of the problem, for example, i will quit raiding after Zul Gurub.
As you can see, its bad giving me loot...because i will quit later on.

So loot Council exists to prevent people like me getting all the loot

[IIamaKing]

I always favored DKP type systems. 100% fair.

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I like DKP better because...its better for me.

But Loot Council is "smarter" for the long run.

Because, and im part of the problem, for example, i will quit raiding after Zul Gurub.
As you can see, its bad giving me loot...because i will quit later on.

So loot Council exists to prevent people like me getting all the loot

So what if you are quitting? You earned the loot up to that point.

[ONCHEhap]

Loot councils are objectively better if you can find a guild that's unbiased,if not DKP systems are better even if they're rather unfair and flawed

[TheWorkingTitle]

Loot councils are objectively better if you can find a guild that's unbiased,if not DKP systems are better even if they're rather unfair and flawed

I don't believe there's an objective guild out there. Humans are inherently flawed and it's all subjective with LC.

What's unfair about earning points based on attendance, punctuality, and contributions to the raid/guild?

[Big Thanks]

So what if you are quitting? You earned the loot up to that point.

I guess there are several different ways we could see this.
There is "what is better for the guild" and "what is better for the player".

No idea who is right.

[unbound]

LC works well and can be more efficient / effective than any of the point systems provided that the raid leadership is thinking about what works best for the guild overall. Unfortunately, it can also be easily perverted to be a simple scheme to gear up themselves and their friends. It's very much like having a monarchy...works great with a good king or queen, and works terribly with a bad king or queen.

Systems that use points system tend reward those that contribute more or at least more consistently, and are much more resistant to tampering. When I was running a raiding guild back in BC, we used one of those systems, and it worked very well. The only ones to complain were those who never really contributed much (i.e. they didn't show up very often to raids). While in our case it was slackers whining, there is a legitimate concern that someone who can't attend raids very often misses out on an ideal drop for themselves to someone else who spends points for a marginal upgrade (so, in that case, LC run by good raid leadership works better).

Between those 2 choices, I find the point systems to be better overall, but I can understand where LC has value (if and only if done by well meaning leaders).

[grandgato]

I guess there are several different ways we could see this.
There is "what is better for the guild" and "what is better for the player".

No idea who is right.

Is the guild paying for your subscription?

I have seen firsthand how Loot Council can be abused, so i am a much bigger fan of DKP.

[mickybrighteyes]

Both systems are flawed, both systems can work... you won't find a provably better system unless you only focusing on specific issues.

Loot Council hinges on the council not being dickwads. DKP systems tend to lock people out if they don't have dkp... blending the typical systems will be best but still hinges on the very important factor of the people in charge not being dickwads.

[BSwitch]

Take this with a big grain of salt - I'm an OG Vanilla raider, but haven't had a decent team since Wrath. In Vanilla, we used DKP - in Wrath, it was pretty casual and I'm pretty sure we straight rolled on pieces (ML, but "All mages, roll on this" or "Healers, roll if you want" kind of thing).

DKP is a great personal system, but it's really bad for the team. I was a holy paladin, and I saved my points to buy a ret weapon when it dropped. I know one guy who passed on everything so he could get Judgement Helm when it first dropped. Likewise, people got mad when someone "less committed" got their hands on ToEP, when they thought they deserved it. Another Pally got pissed when I got the BIS ZG healing plate gloves, because "I'm at every raid, and he's not". Now clearly, if you have enough points to buy a piece, you are entitled. You can get specifically what you want, but potentially at the detriment to the whole team. Not to mention, it's cumbersome to track and clearly report totals to everyone.

Loot Council is better overall for everyone - provided you have uncorrupt members. In my guild, the council will rotate where three officers will basically be permanent, and three members will be on council each week, rotating through people. The idea is this helps prevent favouritism, and keeps things transparent. If you trust your guild, there should be no problems. You'll get gear, but it may not be fast. There will be a priority to make sure committed guild members retain pieces, and there's less chance of people taking gear then leaving the guild or game.

Overall, there are ups and downs for each, but if you're personally only interested in *your* loot, you'll like DKP, but if you're focused on progressing as a guild, enjoying the ride, and not worried too much about your own personal gear, Loot Council is better.

Also, pre-raid BIS for most people is already from dungeons. Focus on getting that, and the epics you slowly get will fill in your already good gear.

[ONCHEhap]

I don't believe there's an objective guild out there. Humans are inherently flawed and it's all subjective with LC.

What's unfair about earning points based on attendance, punctuality, and contributions to the raid/guild?

because it can be abused very easily.The only reason why it's better than a biased loot council is that it's personnal abuse rather than institutionalised abuse,and that it's easier to stop one person from abusing the system than it is to rebuild an entire guild from the ground up

[Spacewalrus2010]

I don't believe there's an objective guild out there. Humans are inherently flawed and it's all subjective with LC.

What's unfair about earning points based on attendance, punctuality, and contributions to the raid/guild?

Typical reasoning;

1) allows for inflation of points which makes it hard for new guild members to ever catch up.
2) It rewards players showing up, not performance.
3) price fixing can happen where a group of a certain class can intentionally collude keep bids low to ultimately save points.

Obviously not all are applicable to all DKP-style systems. For instance #3 wouldn't be an issue unless you have DKP setup for bidding.

[erifwodahs]

I always favored DKP type systems. 100% fair.

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So what if you are quitting? You earned the loot up to that point.

Group progression mate. You are in the guild, guild has interest of investing in best people. Simple. Ofc, shit happens and bad investments happen,LC is smarter in that regard. DKP are for people who are more oriented in their well being rather than their guild. Have seen such players in guilds every tier. "But it is bis for me" - but your performance, regardless of gear is lower than those two other DKs.

[Caperfin]

They all can be exploitable in some way, it really depends on if you share the same goals as other members.

[IIamaKing]

Group progression mate. You are in the guild, guild has interest of investing in best people. Simple. Ofc, shit happens and bad investments happen,LC is smarter in that regard. DKP are for people who are more oriented in their well being rather than their guild. Have seen such players in guilds every tier. "But it is bis for me" - but your performance, regardless of gear is lower than those two other DKs.

If that "lesser" dk shows up, kills bosses he has every right to the drop as the other 2 "Better" Dks. If the GUILD is about progression, why are they bringing a clearly underperforming player so often he can out bid the better players.

[Itori]

Id rather loot council than dkp, dkp can be such bs at times and ive had nothing but bad experiences, saved up 600dkp hoping for paladin t1 to drop, have an emergency and have to miss raid night, come back -1200dkp like how the hell does that even work.

[Heathy]

i've always liked dkp simply because you can target items you want first, most guilds worth their salt will have class based discussion on who should get what first and who wants what first. the idea is to just make ppl pay a certain amount for an item, most items i think find a place where they go relatively cheap and other items will be more expensive on average. but if you show up to raid, you have nothing to worry about because you will have dkp to bid on what you want. it tends to balance out in such a way that, even if someone ends up with a lot of dkp, they will likely dump it on one item and have little left again. you can always just split your dkp lists into tiers and have t1 t2 t3 dkp. earned and spend respectively in those raids.

where I do agree with loot council is funnelling resistance gear and tanking gear to the MT. most other loot is just gained over time and these point systems are just different ways of giving loot to a lot of ppl over time. the bidding wars are just more entertaining imo. it is very thrilling to see two or three ppl with roughly equal amounts of dkp bidding on a highly sought after item.

[Soisoisoi]

Either a full fledged Loot Council, or EPGP alongside Loot Council is the best method imo.


Loot Council only really works when the entire guild is progress orientated and actually understands how gearing works, if it's a random heroic/low mythic guild (Classic equivalents of course), people will bitch about loot it's almost guaranteed. On the other end of the spectrum, EPGP works in a strictly fair way, but doesn't actually benefit the raid properly, which is why I personally use EPGP alongside Loot Council - or did when I raided at least.

You can LC things like raid set bonuses, trinkets, specific items etc. to ensure the raid benefits most rather than everyone getting their 1st/3rd/5th set item or something that is obscenely OP for a specific spec to funnel it to them first, and you can also use it as an incentive/deterrent for things like punctuality, attendance, etc. by having it setup to decay properly. For me it was 25% weekly decay, and 75% on a new raid release - this means new players can catch up pretty quick with the weekly decays, and it also sets a soft-cap so people don't just stockpile EP and have gear go to waste, whilst the 75% decay instead of complete reset makes it so people who raided until the end of the tier instead of dipping out get a couple of items ahead, but again still get caught up with pretty quick.

[Raiid]

The guild I raided in used Loot Council, but with a 2 tier bid system, in that you could put in for an item, as either high or low priority depending on the size of the upgrade, you also included whether it would make a set bonus for you. We also always kept a spreadsheet available to all members showing how many items each person had gotten in each category, when they last received an item, and also how many raids they had attended.

[Denso]

DKP vs LC. One is based off of hard facts, the other your faith in your officers/council... that's all I'll say. (Mind the rules gents).

That being said most DKP systems that guilds used in Vanilla were terrible, in order for a DKP system to be successful/enjoyed by everyone you need to:

a) base it on hourly attendance (incl. benched players) instead of boss kills (ironic, isn't it?)
b) use bids, not fixed prices (want an item early? Gonna cost ya. Trust me, bid wars are cool and add quite the bants).
c) have some form of decay (preferably some formula based off of attendance and/or time since earned)

Zero-sum DKP systems based off of item drops were/are absolutely trash as it encourages farm raids and discourage "progress" as well as causing quite some drama around people being left out of the raid.