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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Easiest solution would probably just to have worgen and goblin monks start at 10 and skip the starting zone.
    I don't even think that's needed, could just say Worgen and Goblin are some form of brawlers until reaching past their zone and into level 20 turns them into a real Monk in training.

    There isn't even a need for a Pandaren Monk trainer in either of their starting zones as well because class trainers have gone the way of the dodo.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Ogren View Post
    I don't even think that's needed, could just say Worgen and Goblin are some form of brawlers until reaching past their zone and into level 20 turns them into a real Monk in training.

    There isn't even a need for a Pandaren Monk trainer in either of their starting zones as well because class trainers have gone the way of the dodo.
    If Stormwind humans, Lordaeron "humans" (forsaken), and Kul Tiran humans can all be monks, then there is no reason for worgen to be excluded.

    As for goblins, they wouldn't let the gnomes get one up on them on anything with that arms race the two always have going on.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Not really. It's kind like an "apples and oranges", here. Most of the base classes of the game were generically-designed, with no specific culture in mind, the priest included. Meanwhile, the monk has been designed heavily around the pandaren culture, and the only monk trainers are pandaren.
    True, most classes were designed to be generic, but in lore it depends on how it's presented around each race.

    It's less apples and oranges than you might think. Airborne Goblin Priests are actually Priests of the Holy Light, where on Azeroth most of their teachings have been taught through the Church of the Holy Light - we know this because they say "Praise to the Light!" when they're summoned, a phrase commonly used by its members. The goal of such priests, usually, is to create a world of honor and justice, aid those in need, and be good in all actions. This directly contradicts with the Goblin lifestyle of swindling, only looking out for themselves. The way around this is that Goblin Priests "help" people, and charge them money. They made it fit into their culture.

    In a more specific example, however, Shamans are heavily featured around Orc, Tauren, and Troll cultures, culminating in the Earthen Ring - a faction originally created by Tauren a couple hundred years ago. The goal of the Earthen Ring is to maintain balance in the elemental forces in order to protect the world. This quite heavily contradicts with the lifestyle of most Goblins. We see different Goblin organizations reshape mountains/entire landscapes, force mountain giants to crap crystals, drill for oil (in an area/tribe ruled by an elemental, with Shamanistic people living there), strip mine, and destroy ecosystems. Much of Kezan is polluted, like the beach, Drudgetown, and their factories.

    However, Goblins are able to be Shamans. They get around this by making them act like Goblins with the elementals, using the teachings of the Earthen Ring much less rigidly than other Shamans. While most Earthen Ring shamans (not all) commune with the spirits in a peaceful manner, summoning them in order to ask for their help, Goblin Shamans get around that by creating contracts with their elementals. Their totems are machines - drills with bellows, fans, and tubes in order to manipulate the elements, rather than summon them or bind them like other Shamans.

    If the argument is that Goblin Monks wouldn't work because of their lifestyle and Monk teachings, well, we've clearly seen that they can work around that kind of stuff. Despite the fact that Monk abilities and lore is based around Pandaren, we've also seen Monks that haven't been taught by Pandaren at all and have similar moves - like I mentioned before, Brother Korloff has no association with Pandaren, and simply uses fiery abilities of regular Monks. Ma'ra Grimfang is an AU Mag'har (calling herself the "Dragon of Draenor") that uses Pandaren-styled abilities, despite the fact that no lore exists stating that Pandaren taught the Mag'har on AU Draenor after we left. Likewise, Mestrah (Ma'ra's counterpart) is a Draenei that claims to have fought/killed countless demons in the Twisting Nether, calling herself a "Dragon of the Light" - presumably she didn't learn her abilities to kill demons as a Monk from a Pandaren. It's also interesting to note that Mestrah was originally a Lightforged Draenei Monk - they changed her model, but not her lore.

    Also, there is one Monk trainer that isn't a Pandaren - Zabrax. However, he probably was taught by Pandaren as well. There were also teachers at the Peak of Serenity that were Gnomes, High Elves, and Tauren. There's nothing to suggest that a Goblin couldn't teach other Goblins, if they must learn to be a Pandaren-style Monk (which isn't entirely needed - more on that later). Gakkiz Blusterblast could be their teacher, or, once again, a Wandering Isle Pandaren could easily go to Kezan.


    Not really. Again, the goblins of Kezan lived a life of luxury and debauchery. They had no need nor interest in the more humble lifestyle of the monk and their teachings.
    They want to live a life of luxury and debauchery, but not all of them have that ability. We see plenty of homeless people on Kezan, mostly living in Drudgetown - a slum. In lore, Goblins work in factories, like Healthy Foods factory, where they develop an illness due to the exposure of the sludge. Gallywix's father, Luzik Gallywix, was a small-time tinker who was constantly being harassed by a gang in Drudgetown.

    It's easy to write off Goblins as one-dimensional - most are presented this way. However, it's absolutely false to say that Goblins in general wouldn't have a need to learn martial arts - and it's 100% false to claim that all Goblins on Kezan live a life of luxury. If the teachings you're talking about are things like inner balance, atonement, and peace, well that can all be interpreted in many ways, which Goblins could (and would) easily manipulate, as mentioned above with priests and shamans.


    Go play the goblin starter zone. Many hobgoblins around, being used as bouncers, guards and servants. Again: your own goblin playable character has their own personal hobgoblin.
    I didn't say that Hobgoblins didn't exist, I said that the majority of Goblin society isn't Hobgoblins. Besides, they do have bodyguards and town guards that aren't Hobgoblins in most Goblin towns/cities - bruisers, which are sometimes presented as Warriors, sometimes presented as hand-to-hand brawlers.

    No, it's not a "fine line". There's huge loads of differences between the two. The normal brewmasters are just that: makers of brews. While the monk brewmaster, while also making brews, have a whole different set of training, mentality, discipline and skills that the normal brewmasters not only don't have, but have no need for.

    That's like saying fencing is the "martial arts version" of 'pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey' game.
    That's not entirely true. While many Brewmasters go through Monk training, not all have to in order to be seen as the Monk-style Brewmaster. The aforementioned Aegira is a brewer, and never once had Pandaren Monk training in Stormheim. However, she's considered a Monk, joins the Order of the Broken Temple, and becomes a Monk champion for players. The same could easily be written in lore for Goblins.
    Another example, Coren Direbrew is a brewmaster, as you mean, and brawls. While not a monk, and never called a monk, he is a Brewmaster that brawls - which could easily translate to the brewmaster spec. He does, in fact, have history with Chen Stormstout as well.

    Also, Gakkiz Blusterblast is a Brewmaster Monk.

    Warriors can use guns.
    Gnome Gunners aren't Warriors. They're a "lore class" that fits the best with hunters. That's the point, here.

    The Kul'Tirans' lifestyle was not like the goblins, and mage teachings does not clash with their lifestyle.
    I didn't say that Kul Tiran lifestyle is the same as a Goblins. Again, it's an example of a lore class that is used as shorthand for a playable class.

    And, Jaina had to go to Dalaran to learn how to be a mage.


    Priests have a shadow spec, remember? Based on the void.
    Yup, I know. The point was that player orcs don't have to be shadow, but there's no lore to suggest that Shadowmoon Mag'har Orcs follow the Light at all.
    Last edited by Destinas; 2019-09-22 at 02:00 PM.
    3 hints to surviving MMO-C forums:
    1.) If you have an opinion, someone will say that it is wrong
    2.) If you have a source, there will be people who refuse to believe it
    3.) If you use logic, it will be largely ignored
    btw: Spires of Arak = Arakkoa.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Beatman View Post
    WoW is silly enough already. No kung fu werewolves, please.
    Not an argument

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Destinas View Post
    <snip>
    I'm snipping this for the sake of post size. Anyways, on to some of your points.

    Regarding the 'priest' thing. Again, the 'priest' class is not themed around a single culture. The goblins could just revere the Light in their own way, and their society 'adapted' the concept to suit their needs with time. Are there selfless goblins? I'm sure there might be one or two in a sea of goblins. I don't recall ever seeing one, though.

    About the 'shaman' thing, yes, I do think the goblins' 'contract' with the elements is more literal than the contract the other shamans have with them, but to say goblins 'manipulate' the elements? I think that may be going a bit far. And the shamans' goal is not to "protect the world" but to "mediate the elements".

    Back to monks, and the AU orc boss in BoD. We did have pandaren around back in WoD, and while there is no lore saying pandaren stayed behind to teach them... there is also no lore staying that they didn't. So it's completely feasible to assume a pandaren stayed behind to help the orcs and draenei rebuild after the fight against Archimonde. Either that, or she learned the martial arts from the monks after she came to Azeroth. Same for Mestrah, in this case. Or, third option, picking those races was an oversight of Blizzard's regarding their lore (wouldn't be the first time).

    They want to live a life of luxury and debauchery, but not all of them have that ability. We see plenty of homeless people on Kezan, mostly living in Drudgetown - a slum. In lore, Goblins work in factories, like Healthy Foods factory, where they develop an illness due to the exposure of the sludge. Gallywix's father, Luzik Gallywix, was a small-time tinker who was constantly being harassed by a gang in Drudgetown.

    It's easy to write off Goblins as one-dimensional - most are presented this way. However, it's absolutely false to say that Goblins in general wouldn't have a need to learn martial arts - and it's 100% false to claim that all Goblins on Kezan live a life of luxury. If the teachings you're talking about are things like inner balance, atonement, and peace, well that can all be interpreted in many ways, which Goblins could (and would) easily manipulate, as mentioned above with priests and shamans.
    Well, here's the thing: if the goblins in the upper echelons allowed pandaren in Kezan to teach the "less fortunate" goblins their lifestyle, that would've negatively affected the richer goblins as the poorer ones wouldn't depend on them as much. And considering we've seen goblins are willing to sell each other as slaves, I don't think pandaren would be allowed in Kezan.

    I didn't say that Hobgoblins didn't exist, I said that the majority of Goblin society isn't Hobgoblins. Besides, they do have bodyguards and town guards that aren't Hobgoblins in most Goblin towns/cities - bruisers, which are sometimes presented as Warriors, sometimes presented as hand-to-hand brawlers.
    Yes, but we are talking about Kezan, are we not?

    That's not entirely true. While many Brewmasters go through Monk training, not all have to in order to be seen as the Monk-style Brewmaster. The aforementioned Aegira is a brewer, and never once had Pandaren Monk training in Stormheim. However, she's considered a Monk, joins the Order of the Broken Temple, and becomes a Monk champion for players. The same could easily be written in lore for Goblins.
    Another example, Coren Direbrew is a brewmaster, as you mean, and brawls. While not a monk, and never called a monk, he is a Brewmaster that brawls - which could easily translate to the brewmaster spec. He does, in fact, have history with Chen Stormstout as well.
    That vrykul is an odd case, to be sure. I'm convinced that she's only a "monk brewmaster" in game title only to fit within the monk's order hall and be a follower, since all followers have to be actual monks and she's something else entirely: a "brew maker that brawls" and not an actual "monk brewmaster".

    Coren Direbrew, though, it's a clear-cut case of a "beer maker that brawls". His "history" with Chen is nothing but him arguing his way into Chen's beer drinking contest and then having his ass handed to him in a silver platter.

    Gnome Gunners aren't Warriors. They're a "lore class" that fits the best with hunters. That's the point, here.
    Not really. All they do is shoot their guns, which is something warriors do. I haven't seen them use traps or other hunter abilities.

    Yup, I know. The point was that player orcs don't have to be shadow, but there's no lore to suggest that Shadowmoon Mag'har Orcs follow the Light at all.
    Again, doesn't matter, because Priests are not "only" about the Light. Priests can just be shadow priests. You don't need to worship the Light... to be a 'shadow priest'.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  6. #226
    Dreadlord
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    Lorewise, Worgen Monks could just be Human Monks who got cursed or whatever

  7. #227
    Scarab Lord Fahrad Wagner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carolus Rex View Post
    Yeah. That has always been the case. It's in Rise of the Horde and even got specifically mentioned in Durotan's Lords of War episode. I mean where do you think it is coming from?

    I had forgotten how heartbreaking this cinematic was.

  8. #228
    Old God Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    I have a hard time thinking a race rooted in greed and another that suffers from violent tendencies can master the strict disciplinary prerequisites to be a Monk.
    Both blood elves and orcs can be monks.

  9. #229
    I think if forsaken can be monks, anyone should be able to. Something that is dead has no chi, and being undead isn't being raised by chi but by unholy magic. Then with the rotting limbs and exposed joints, they would barely be able to throw a punch without shattering something. Yet here they are, with playable monks.

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