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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post
    Sunwalkers (and other Tauren Divine magic casters) aren't directly using literal solar spells - they are using Holy magic through their faith in An'she / the Earthmother. In it's core, it's the same method that Blood Elves with faith in the Light, Draenei with faith in the Naaru or Zandalari with faith in Rezan use.

    Which is different from druidic magic that isn't spawned from faith nor willpower.
    The problem with Sunwalkers is that they are former druids, they are suppose to tap into the power of the sun the same way they used to tap into the power of nature so how is it that suddenly they are acting through faith instead of just commune with the type of magic the sun has (that is probably nature magic)?? and how are their getting light powers?? , to have faith in the light or the will power to use it you still have to have some rough concept of what the light is and taurens lack this.
    Last edited by Piamonte; 2019-09-24 at 01:23 PM.

  2. #22
    Scarab Lord A Chozo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piamonte View Post
    to have faith in the light or the will power to use it you still have to have some rough concept of what the light is and taurens lack this.
    Here's the thing, you don't need faith in the Light to use Holy spells - It could be faith in a deity, in a concept, in someone, etc. It triggers by faith and/or willpower (as Benedictus did). If the Tauren interprets the Light as 'the Light of the Earthmother", they'll think that it all comes from her, and it fits their religion.

    The most recent example of a race having faith in something other than the Light, and still using Holy magic, are the Zandalari. They had faith in Rezan, and after he died, they still upheld his virtuous ideals, allowing their prelates to keep using Holy magic. For a while they even lost access to it because they lost Faith once Rezan died.

    An ancient example of Holy-magic use without any consideration to the Light are the Fel Orcs. Some are capable of simple healing spells that use Holy magic. How? Probably basic willpower, because in the end those are still spells. There's also the Night Elves, who use the Light of Elune - could mean that Elune infuses their kind with Holy magic, and it could also be their faith providing the Holy power. The Light has been behaving this way since Classic.

    Also, the Sunwalkers aren't "suddenly" acting through faith. There are extensive discussions between Aponi and Tahu leading to the creation of the Tauren's Priest and Paladin orders.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post
    Here's the thing, you don't need faith in the Light to use Holy spells - It could be faith in a deity, in a concept, in someone, etc. It triggers by faith and/or willpower (as Benedictus did). If the Tauren interprets the Light as 'the Light of the Earthmother", they'll think that it all comes from her, and it fits their religion.

    The most recent example of a race having faith in something other than the Light, and still using Holy magic, are the Zandalari. They had faith in Rezan, and after he died, they still upheld his virtuous ideals, allowing their prelates to keep using Holy magic. For a while they even lost access to it because they lost Faith once Rezan died.

    An ancient example of Holy-magic use without any consideration to the Light are the Fel Orcs. Some are capable of simple healing spells that use Holy magic. How? Probably basic willpower, because in the end those are still spells. There's also the Night Elves, who use the Light of Elune - could mean that Elune infuses their kind with Holy magic, and it could also be their faith providing the Holy power. The Light has been behaving this way since Classic.

    Also, the Sunwalkers aren't "suddenly" acting through faith. There are extensive discussions between Aponi and Tahu leading to the creation of the Tauren's Priest and Paladin orders.
    As I said before, you still need a rough concept of what the light is to get any power from it, heck humans acquired this concept through the naaru.

    The zandalaar got their powers from rezan the same way someone gets light powers from a naaru, or the sunwell, by having an available Source near by. After rezan was gone they realized that wielding the light is easy for them because they already knew it, they already had the will power necessary to make it happen.

    Night Elf priests never used holy light, thats just gameplay, the proof of this is that each race of priests in vainilla wow had an unique spell only available to them that representes the differences in their culture, night Elf priests worship elune and so all their powers are arcane in nature.

    As for fel orcs, i have never hear they wield the light but it doesnt matter, it doesnt break the lore, all you need to wield the light is the concept of it and willpower.

  4. #24
    Scarab Lord A Chozo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piamonte View Post
    As I said before, you still need a rough concept of what the light is to get any power from it, heck humans acquired this concept through the naaru.

    The zandalaar got their powers from rezan the same way someone gets light powers from a naaru, or the sunwell, by having an available Source near by. After rezan was gone they realized that wielding the light is easy for them because they already knew it, they already had the will power necessary to make it happen.

    Night Elf priests never used holy light, thats just gameplay, the proof of this is that each race of priests in vainilla wow had an unique spell only available to them that representes the differences in their culture, night Elf priests worship elune and so all their powers are arcane in nature.

    As for fel orcs, i have never hear they wield the light but it doesnt matter, it doesnt break the lore, all you need to wield the light is the concept of it and willpower.
    1 - The Taurens do have a concept of what the Light is. What this Holy power they wield is.

    2 - Rezan didn't give Holy powers to the Zandalari. There's no direct mention of that anywhere. Zandalari Priests use Holy and Shadow magic powered by their faith in their favorite Loa - it's what they call "Da Light of de Loa". This can mean two things: One, that every Loa emanates Light magic to be used, or two, that they all don't.

    3 - Night Elf priests use Holy magic like Humans and Draeneis. It's the same stuff - power that comes from the soul, spawned through faith or granted by a greater being, for Light is Light, coming from self or from another deity. To say that "Night Elf priests use Arcane" is to disconsider their whole history, their whole struggle against Arcane magic users, and this would be ignorant. The key difference is culture - you won't see a Night Elf saying "Praise the Light!", they just talk about Elune and her light, similar to Zandalari talking about the Loa's light. In the end, it's Holy magic, drawing from the infinite Light ocean.

  5. #25
    The Lightbringer DesoPL's Avatar
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    At some points i don't get it.

    1: Druids says that arcane is bad and needs be prohibited.

    2: They use moonfire, starfire etc which are arcane.
    If you are Activision fan boy. Please don't talk to me.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post
    1 - The Taurens do have a concept of what the Light is. What this Holy power they wield is.

    2 - Rezan didn't give Holy powers to the Zandalari. There's no direct mention of that anywhere. Zandalari Priests use Holy and Shadow magic powered by their faith in their favorite Loa - it's what they call "Da Light of de Loa". This can mean two things: One, that every Loa emanates Light magic to be used, or two, that they all don't.

    3 - Night Elf priests use Holy magic like Humans and Draeneis. It's the same stuff - power that comes from the soul, spawned through faith or granted by a greater being, for Light is Light, coming from self or from another deity. To say that "Night Elf priests use Arcane" is to disconsider their whole history, their whole struggle against Arcane magic users, and this would be ignorant. The key difference is culture - you won't see a Night Elf saying "Praise the Light!", they just talk about Elune and her light, similar to Zandalari talking about the Loa's light. In the end, it's Holy magic, drawing from the infinite Light ocean.
    Dude. I just posted a source to other guy that explicitly says balance druids use arcane and nature magic, elune has always been about arcane, even moonwells are a mix of arcane magic with nature magic. Elune is a goddes that seeks balance between these two forces, but that is another discussion.

    The taurens dont have a concept of what the light is, you cant get the light just by worshipping something, otherwise you could get light powers from worshipping demons or the Void.

    As for rezan, i looked him up in wowpedia and i found something interesting rezan is "the glory of the sun", he seems to represent the sun in the zandalar culture and this goes hand in hand with Sunwalkers lore, this gives the idea that the sun is a source of light magic, the problem is, that this is kinda lore breaking because as I said before, balance druids get their powers from the sun and the moon and they use arcane and nature, not light. The only answer I can come up with is that the sun is both a source of nature magic and holy magic, which is kinda weird.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DesoPL View Post
    At some points i don't get it.

    1: Druids says that arcane is bad and needs be prohibited.

    2: They use moonfire, starfire etc which are arcane.
    The point as the name of the spec implies is finding balance between the arcane and nature.

  7. #27
    Scarab Lord A Chozo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piamonte View Post
    otherwise you could get light powers from worshipping demons or the Void.
    Archbishop Benedictus and several Twilight Vindicators do just that. They worship the end of times and the Old Gods - zealotry without match, granting Light powers.

    Balance Druids don't use light because their magic isn't guided by Faith, unlike the Prelates, Sunwalkers, Paladins, etc. who use Holy magic through willpower and/or faith.

    There is nothing breaking the lore. It's intact. You just need to realize that what the characters' ingame say =/= absolute truth.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post
    Archbishop Benedictus and several Twilight Vindicators do just that. They worship the end of times and the Old Gods - zealotry without match, granting Light powers.

    Balance Druids don't use light because their magic isn't guided by Faith, unlike the Prelates, Sunwalkers, Paladins, etc. who use Holy magic through willpower and/or faith.

    There is nothing breaking the lore. It's intact. You just need to realize that what the characters' ingame say =/= absolute truth.
    ... You know that the only true requisite to wield the light is will power right (this is canon) benedictus can do it because wielding the light is like a second nature to him, he trusts he can and so he can, thats it.

    As I just said Sunwalkers are able to use the light because the sun seems to be a source of holy magic.

    Im not going by what characters say, im going by what is stated in wowpedia that comes directly from blizzard.

  9. #29
    Scarab Lord A Chozo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piamonte View Post
    ... You know that the only true requisite to wield the light is will power right (this is canon) benedictus can do it because wielding the light is like a second nature to him, he trusts he can and so he can, thats it.

    As I just said Sunwalkers are able to use the light because the sun seems to be a source of holy magic.

    Im not going by what characters say, im going by what is stated in wowpedia that comes directly from blizzard.
    Wait wait wait, so, Benedictus can use the Light because he has willpower, but the Sunwalkers can't use it by faith (which is the other canon method) because...? What about the Twilight Vindicators? Are they just mechanics, like the Night Elves using Holy magic?

    You could've told me sooner that this is how you interpret the lore, dude. Could've saved some time for us both.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post
    Wait wait wait, so, Benedictus can use the Light because he has willpower, but the Sunwalkers can't use it by faith (which is the other canon method) because...? What about the Twilight Vindicators? Are they just mechanics, like the Night Elves using Holy magic?

    You could've told me sooner that this is how you interpret the lore, dude. Could've saved some time for us both.
    Faith isnt the other canon method, there isnt other canon method, there is THE canon method that is will power. A Faith sistem just seems to be a good way to learn the light but strictly speaking is not necessary.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    I also know that when they do things as big as spell allocation and abilities, names etc, it is very intetnional. Perhaps in WC3 as we saw in WotA, the druid originally wasn't intended to have those abilities, however as they developed the classes, they gave the shaman a lot of spells I felt were traditionally druidic, and then gave the druids these very interesting spells.
    You have to remember when those things happened. Back in Vanilla, every class had at least 2 damage types so nothing was completely immune to all their abilities. For the same reason, those damage types were often from "opposed" elements, which at the time was Nature and Arcane for Druids.

    But at the same time, they made Mage Arcane and Druid Moon/Star spells look and be named very differently, suggesting they didn't intend them to be seen as the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post
    Sunwalkers (and other Tauren Divine magic casters) aren't directly using literal solar spells - they are using Holy magic through their faith in An'she / the Earthmother. In it's core, it's the same method that Blood Elves with faith in the Light, Draenei with faith in the Naaru or Zandalari with faith in Rezan use.

    Which is different from druidic magic that isn't spawned from faith nor willpower.
    Actually, it's the other way around. They use the Paladin template because it's there and they're not different enough to warrant a new class, but they aren't actually Paladins and do not use the Light.

    I.e. they use the Paladin class because making a new class that is completely identical except all spells are in the nature spell school is stupid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DesoPL View Post
    At some points i don't get it.

    1: Druids says that arcane is bad and needs be prohibited.

    2: They use moonfire, starfire etc which are arcane.
    No, they say the Arcane is dangerous to use. They use Nature magic spells that deal arcane damage. Game mechanical spell schools(Fire, Frost, Nature, Arcane, Shadow, Holy, Physical and any combinations thereof) do not map to magic types.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    You have to remember when those things happened. Back in Vanilla, every class had at least 2 damage types so nothing was completely immune to all their abilities. For the same reason, those damage types were often from "opposed" elements, which at the time was Nature and Arcane for Druids.

    But at the same time, they made Mage Arcane and Druid Moon/Star spells look and be named very differently, suggesting they didn't intend them to be seen as the same.

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    Actually, it's the other way around. They use the Paladin template because it's there and they're not different enough to warrant a new class, but they aren't actually Paladins and do not use the Light.

    I.e. they use the Paladin class because making a new class that is completely identical except all spells are in the nature spell school is stupid.

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    No, they say the Arcane is dangerous to use. They use Nature magic spells that deal arcane damage. Game mechanical spell schools(Fire, Frost, Nature, Arcane, Shadow, Holy, Physical and any combinations thereof) do not map to magic types.
    I just literally posted a Source from blizzard that says druids do use arcane and nature magic together lorewise.

  13. #33
    Has anyone even read my first post and my assumptions about the Arcan'dor and the containment of the arcane by the naturemagic?

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    You have to remember when those things happened. Back in Vanilla, every class had at least 2 damage types so nothing was completely immune to all their abilities. For the same reason, those damage types were often from "opposed" elements, which at the time was Nature and Arcane for Druids.

    But at the same time, they made Mage Arcane and Druid Moon/Star spells look and be named very differently, suggesting they didn't intend them to be seen as the same.
    To an extent, yes, but they didn't have to do nature /arcane duality at all. They could have gone the route of the shaman that had multiple schools, I feel they intentionally gave those spells to the druids. And I think they actually reflect the arcane side of the night elves which is there in clearly in the lore, but not quite so visible in classic. however if you read the wc3 manua, understood wc3, and war of the ancients that reflects the original night elf, and all the things they wrote about them, the druid abilities and moon priestess arcane damage spells don't surprise you and they actually make sense.

    I just think this is how they designed their night elves. they wanted a new type of elf that wasn't quite a dark elf or a forest elf. Afterall the nighte lves were born out of a concept picture someone drew, and Metzen decided to flesh them out as the original elves.

    Despite peoples disputes, the night elves are very magical - and I think people miss that because they don't really understand the long vigil banning of arcane. They take that to mean the night elves are some anti arcane, and anti magic faction at heart - which they aren't at all. They were anti-arcane practice to prevent the legion from returning, and the nature dominance of the long vigil is simply because the arcane couldn't be practiced. Despite the story also showing that what they hated was their recklessness and addiction , abusing their "sacred" magics (which I phrase in this manner because I get the feel that the ngiht elves really felt the arcane was sacred, and I don't think that stopped in the long vigil at all, judging that belief in Elune continued, and despite not wanting a new well, when they got one, it was the most sacred thing to them, and it's off shoot moonwells)

    The devs have shown a deeply magical race, from their inception from the well of eternity, to their all out arcane civilziaiton, and then to the long vigil, which is also quite magical though only through the nature side. Post Long vigil, they combine the arcane, nature and divine again as well as the fel fighting demon hunters coming onto our side in 7.0

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    Actually, it's the other way around. They use the Paladin template because it's there and they're not different enough to warrant a new class, but they aren't actually Paladins and do not use the Light.

    I.e. they use the Paladin class because making a new class that is completely identical except all spells are in the nature spell school is stupid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    No, they say the Arcane is dangerous to use. They use Nature magic spells that deal arcane damage. Game mechanical spell schools(Fire, Frost, Nature, Arcane, Shadow, Holy, Physical and any combinations thereof) do not map to magic types.
    During the long vigil they did, because it was believed to bring the legion down, and I believe they are wary of abusing it, hence Farodin revealing the night elf current approach to the arcane to prevent addictions of the past is to live in balance. It is that principle that births and perfects the Arcan'dor - balance between arcane and nature, this is what the night elves are about. The balance druid typifies this, but I belief the arcane mages/highborne and the druids will come to operate in balance in night elf society, to prevent the abuses of the pass and eradicate addiction through wisdom and discipline.


    I don't think they use nature spells that deal arcane damage - no where I look says this, although it may be true. I think what counts as "arcane"spells is not what you think. The "arcane " spellwork they banned is not because they use arcane energy or involve the arcane, it was banned because using the wlel of eternity lit up Azeroth like a beacon, so any spellwork that employed the well or leylines was a threat to revealing that the Well of Eternity was still available to the Burning Legion We see the druid Malfurion casting many spells in WotA trilogy, and only a few of them are "druidic" spells - then what are all the others?

    And if they hate it or feel it is dangerous why use them? However saying that, a weapon is dangerous, but is still used for the specific reasons you have it. Powerful tools would always be inherently dangerous because of their capability. THe best and most skilful users of the tools master and respect their power, fully aware of its dangers. So it is with the night elves who aren't blinded by addictions - as evidenced several times.

    I don't feel the druid spells are nature spells at all, I think night elves because of their strong and long arcane history, and the origin of arcane through the priesthood, have a much more involved relationship than simply " arcane = bad, we hate and never use". Judging formwhat the lore shows, the type of arcnae practise that was banned was not any spell that utilises arcane energy, but every spell that draws from the Well (which was what the great "sorcery"works of the night elves used and what defined the mage class for them. Sopells that utilise Azeroths leylines in elaborate and powerful ways or the well of eternity make Azeroth light up like beacon in the twisting nether, alerting the demons to a very powerful source of magic they lust for. (or so they thought that was all they wanted).

    It stands to reason, that spells that don't utilise the well as such, whether they employ arcane energy or not are not considered the "sorcery" the night elves refer to , and thus are not banned. Spells like Moonfire, Starfire, Starfall, Starsurge, Lunar Strike and all the Tyrande and priestess arcane spells are not sorcery because it is evident they draw their power from the stars and the moon no Azeroth and it's leylines or the well, although those can be used to further empower those spells.

    To understand this well, we have to understand what exactly was the relation and problem the night elves had with the arcane and the reason for the ban and stance of the long vigil. We can so far only go on the information we are given, coments, statements, narratives and descriptions. When you look at the druid spells they don't say call on nature with the arcane spells, they state calling on the stars or casting a spell.. It is spellwork, however it is not the type that they were most worried about.

    A second consideration is we see these spells used when the legion returns in WC3 and afterwards. The legion's return ends the Long vigil, and the need not only for isolation but to ban the use of arcane magic. It is easily conceivable that the priests and druids weren't using these spells during the long vigil, but once the legion returns, employ them regardless of whether they draw from the stars or not.. We really have no evidence they were used during the long vigil, we see them only in use in WC3 on the Legin's return and in wow which is after the legion's return, and when it is no longer necessary to ban any form of arcane use.

    The fact they use them, tells a lot about the race and is consistent with their racial core and characteristics as described in their narrative throughout their existence, from pre-sundering to the long vigil which I have to remind you was an era that was also centred around the wlel of eternity and moonwells even though sorcery (practice of the arcane) was banned.

    We know that many of the Moonguard and highborne arcane night elves became druids too, these spels are likely from the Moonguard anyway, not all the highborne that survived were part of the Sunstrider group, nor did all agree with the actions of the Sunstriders. Remember it was all night elves that agreed to ban the practice of the arcane to stop the legion from returning. It wasn't a druidic culture that banned it, it was an arcane culture, with lots of arcane users that banned it. Only Malfurion at that time was nature magic wielding, and he didn't only use nature magic spells during the WotA. All the night elves gathered on Mount Hyjal, were familiar with the arcane, whether priests, soldiers etc - and it was they all alongside Dragons from 3 flights and ancients that decided the course of action (of no arcane practice - to prevent the legion's return) that started the long vigil.

    Druids developed in the coming years, from arcane users who had to find other things to do, especially if they were male, they couldn't join the order of Elune, that was still a sisterhood up until classic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Has anyone even read my first post and my assumptions about the Arcan'dor and the containment of the arcane by the naturemagic?
    Read my reply to Huth above and some of my earlier ones.

    I don't think the nature "contains" arcane magic - that's the wrong way of putting it. Nature and arcane in the warcraft universe work well together, the night elves are the race that typify this. Their unique place in warcraft is to be dually heavy arcane and heavy nature -as shown by the pre-sundering and long vigil eras, and present that duality in the modern era through their horders.

    At least that is what blizzard has been showing us by all the night elf arcane, nature and demon hunter stuff we got in cataclysm and legion which if you note was no small effort to show night elven civilziation. Suramar is a master piece that took a lot of work and consideration both in iits design and the portrayl of kaldorei pre-sundering society. The inclusion of Farondis highbnre shoiwng the origin of the night elven rebellion, to Black rook hold who spearheaded the new rebellion, to the birthplace of druidsm in Val'sharah, to Suramar, the influential city the night elf heroes all come from, then the demon hunteers, the legacy of the night elf Illidan and all the meaning they carry, and the wardens. From the return of the highborne in cataclysm, blizzad has been consistent in showing both the arcane, nature and priesthood sides of the night elves since they properly visited them in cataclysm.

    It seems nature has a balancing effect on the arcane, in the elven users of it. It makes sense too, the night elves (especially the highborne) only became addicted because they forsook everything else for fixated casting. WotA describes how overworked they were, consntatly using the arcane, and the era is described as the night elves coming to care about nothing else but the arcane. Imagine that and what it means, you use arcane for everything, moving objects, going from a to b, not only is their addictionfrom the high you feel, but you don't use your body anywhere near as much as you should.. follow the possible implications and you can see their problem and the need for balance.

    This is what nature magic provides it would seem. The night elves figure out how to both prevent and then later fully cure arcane addiction by 7.0. Prevention by balanced lifestyle, cure by arcan'dor.


    The demon hunters use arcane runes to balance the fel and it's more corruptive effects, especially on their soul, the runes keep the demon within at bay.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2019-09-24 at 11:13 PM.

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