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  1. #141
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fetus Rex View Post
    But is he really? Just let's say that his past Tempest Keep was a result of a big fel crystal being stuck on his chest and his actions were not his own. Other than that his Outland actions were fully justified, even if radical but that's Kael'Thas for you. I want Blood Elves leader to be the guy who would burn ten human villages to save one elf.
    But we're past that time. We've seen him go from his prime and to a husk of corruption.
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  2. #142
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.
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  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    But we're past that time. We've seen him go from his prime and to a husk of corruption.
    Did we really? It was forced and should be retconned for Kael'Thas's sake and greater W universe lore. What they did to him was shameful and must not stay this way. Of all dead characters his come back would be the most natural.

  4. #144
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fetus Rex View Post
    Did we really? It was forced and should be retconned for Kael'Thas's sake and greater W universe lore. What they did to him was shameful and must not stay this way. Of all dead characters his come back would be the most natural.
    If he would return, he would become a joke. A major meme. "X was merely a setback!".
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  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    If he would return, he would become a joke. A major meme. "X was merely a setback!".
    What and who is not a meme at this point.

  6. #146
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fetus Rex View Post
    Betrayer? Who did he betray? King can't betray his people, they are his to rule.
    Categorically false. A king betraying his people is the reason the Magna Carta was drafted, to give the people recourse the next time a king attempted such.

    edit: Even if we run with the insipid notion of people being a King's property, if you kick a dog the dog is certainly going to consider you betrayed it, and kick the dog enough times and it will attack you for its own safety.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  7. #147
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    Categorically false. A king betraying his people is the reason the Magna Carta was drafted, to give the people recourse the next time a king attempted such.

    edit: Even if we run with the insipid notion of people being a King's property, if you kick a dog the dog is certainly going to consider you betrayed it, and kick the dog enough times and it will attack you for its own safety.
    Can we include the fact that he joined a threat of power in Outland? Can we include the fact that Prince Kael'thas was gone for so long that people stopped seeing him as a leader? Then point at the fact that he commanded Blood Elves in Outland to attack their own kind? Or to the point where he proclaimed Tempest Keep as his seat of power, then to be shattered by his allies? Or the part where he returned and was welcomed only to rip away a source of power that the Sin'dorei had gotten used to, to fuel his plans for opening the Sunwell as a gateway for the Legion? Or the part where he once more commands his people to kill his own people? Or his subtle, not fully understood alliances with demons and naga who are still at hostility to his own people.

    If we had him brought back for a third time, he would not be welcomed as a ruler, if he was - it would be worse writing than what we have seen. He would not be trusted by his people.

    "My second death was merely a setback!"
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  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    Categorically false. A king betraying his people is the reason the Magna Carta was drafted, to give the people recourse the next time a king attempted such.

    edit: Even if we run with the insipid notion of people being a King's property, if you kick a dog the dog is certainly going to consider you betrayed it, and kick the dog enough times and it will attack you for its own safety.
    Absolutely true. Magna Carta was drafted because a bunch of capable and power hungry barons could afford forcing it. It was one of the biggest tragedies in European monarchies.

    Dogs feeling of betrayal is irrelevant.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Can we include the fact that he joined a threat of power in Outland? Can we include the fact that Prince Kael'thas was gone for so long that people stopped seeing him as a leader? Then point at the fact that he commanded Blood Elves in Outland to attack their own kind? Or to the point where he proclaimed Tempest Keep as his seat of power, then to be shattered by his allies? Or the part where he returned and was welcomed only to rip away a source of power that the Sin'dorei had gotten used to, to fuel his plans for opening the Sunwell as a gateway for the Legion? Or the part where he once more commands his people to kill his own people? Or his subtle, not fully understood alliances with demons and naga who are still at hostility to his own people.

    If we had him brought back for a third time, he would not be welcomed as a ruler, if he was - it would be worse writing than what we have seen. He would not be trusted by his people.

    "My second death was merely a setback!"
    He joined Illidan's forced to stop the greater threat. What people thing is irrelevant. In fact it is ridiculous, it doesn't matter where monarch resides. It is not as if he met them on the streets and shook their hands. Killing dissidents is pretty normal.

    It depends on circumstances.
    Last edited by Fetus Rex; 2019-09-27 at 08:07 AM.

  9. #149
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fetus Rex View Post
    He joined Illidan's forced to stop the greater threat. What people thing is irrelevant. In fact it is ridiculous, it doesn't matter where monarch resides. It is not as if he met them on the streets and shook their hands. Killing dissidents is pretty normal.

    It depends on circumstances.
    You can't mix real life behavior to a fantasy world. What people think is not irrelevant. You're in a world where one could easily dispose of another if they are proven unworthy of their position.

    And I am not talking about dissidents, I'm talking about his citizens. The members of the Horde sent to Outland, many sent to negotiate with him, killed. Many sent to return him, killed. Sent to stop him, killed. His own people. Only because they were worried about their kingdom, and that his goals were tearing at it, and bringing fear in people for what he's bringing upon them as a threat.
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  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    You can't mix real life behavior to a fantasy world. What people think is not irrelevant. You're in a world where one could easily dispose of another if they are proven unworthy of their position.

    And I am not talking about dissidents, I'm talking about his citizens. The members of the Horde sent to Outland, many sent to negotiate with him, killed. Many sent to return him, killed. Sent to stop him, killed. His own people. Only because they were worried about their kingdom, and that his goals were tearing at it, and bringing fear in people for what he's bringing upon them as a threat.
    I know but it still doesn't make sense. It's not as if Kael would spend his time on the streets.

    Citizen is a generous term. Those who opposed their rightful ruler were killed. And why would he care about the Horde. Worries that led to treason. He was doing alright. And should be remembered as hero who opposed The Burning Legion. His Sunwell chapter is a joke and must be retconned.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fetus Rex View Post
    I know but it still doesn't make sense. It's not as if Kael would spend his time on the streets.
    No, they want him to spend time in the Kingdom, help rebuild, help empower, help reconnect. The Sin'dorei was left behind in ashes after their loss and one of their most powerful goes, "Oh, I'll go and find a solution somewhere" and that is all their heard after that.

    Messengers sent, was killed. Envoys sent, was killed. Groups sent, was killed. The Prince thought he could find the answer but he stopped from there after splitting his people into a 3rd group as they have just seen the High Elves depart. As a ruler, you are also meant to be there in the time of need for the kingdom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fetus Rex View Post
    Citizen is a generous term. Those who opposed their rightful ruler were killed.
    No, they were citizens, even when they opposed him. As a ruler, you are meant to be able to handle opposition in the time of need, not kill anyone asking him to come back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fetus Rex View Post
    And why would he care about the Horde.
    Because as he left, the connection with the Horde was done. As he left, he left his people without answers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fetus Rex View Post
    Worries that led to treason. He was doing alright.
    HE was doing alright, the kingdom was not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fetus Rex View Post
    And should be remembered as hero who opposed The Burning Legion. His Sunwell chapter is a joke and must be retconned.
    He was a hero, until he fell out with Illidan. He saw Illidan's work as a waste, and then he joined the Legion. The Sunwell chapter is one of the biggest pieces of lore, and can't as easily be retconned.
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  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    No, they want him to spend time in the Kingdom, help rebuild, help empower, help reconnect. The Sin'dorei was left behind in ashes after their loss and one of their most powerful goes, "Oh, I'll go and find a solution somewhere" and that is all their heard after that.

    Messengers sent, was killed. Envoys sent, was killed. Groups sent, was killed. The Prince thought he could find the answer but he stopped from there after splitting his people into a 3rd group as they have just seen the High Elves depart. As a ruler, you are also meant to be there in the time of need for the kingdom.


    No, they were citizens, even when they opposed him. As a ruler, you are meant to be able to handle opposition in the time of need, not kill anyone asking him to come back.


    Because as he left, the connection with the Horde was done. As he left, he left his people without answers.


    HE was doing alright, the kingdom was not.


    He was a hero, until he fell out with Illidan. He saw Illidan's work as a waste, and then he joined the Legion. The Sunwell chapter is one of the biggest pieces of lore, and can't as easily be retconned.
    But he has people to do it for him. He went there to save them all.

    There was no great need, Rommath in his place delivered needed assistance.

    They were dissidents. Opposition needs to be silenced.

    He left his people with plenty of answers, again Rommath.

    His kingdom too was doing alright. Not in the best shape but manageable.

    That's the nonsensical writing. It can be: fel crystal in chest = mind control, possession.
    Last edited by Fetus Rex; 2019-09-27 at 08:36 AM.

  13. #153
    Don't look so smug! I know what you're thinking, but Tempest Keep... and having my head removed from my body then handed in for a quest... was merely a setback!

  14. #154
    I fucking loved kael'thaz outro when we killed him in the instance.

    Its one of the best voicelines in the game.
    None of us really changes over time. We only become more fully what we are.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Sevarin View Post
    Don't look so smug! I know what you're thinking, but Tempest Keep... and having my head removed from my body then handed in for a quest... was merely a setback!
    Yes, especially if someone made a mistake of cremating it.

  16. #156
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fetus Rex View Post
    But he has people to do it for him. He went there to save them all.
    He left people to do his job. Gave promises, and nothing more. He didn't announce to the people that he left them in charge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fetus Rex View Post
    There was no great need, Rommath in his place delivered needed assistance.
    The three high ranks in his place left suspicion and distrust. People believing they push themselves to power because the prince was gone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fetus Rex View Post
    They were dissidents. Opposition needs to be silenced.
    They were citizens. You had messenger sent to get updates on the prince - nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fetus Rex View Post
    He left his people with plenty of answers, again Rommath.
    Even Rommath didn't have the right answers. He left them with a promise. No updates, no further answers other than dead people who sought him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fetus Rex View Post
    His kingdom too was doing alright. Not in the best shape but manageable.
    Night Elven intruders. Amani uprising again. Wretched growing in numbers. Distrust between the ranks. Questionable usage of power and half the kingdom in ruin. Manageable, yes but not optimal. His temporary leadership was not with answers. They weren't trusted by everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fetus Rex View Post
    That's the nonsensical writing. It can be: fel crystal in chest = mind control, possession.
    Fel Crystal in chest = power source. Just like the magi was siphoning in Silvermoon but instead of having to siphon, he had one on him.
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  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    He left people to do his job. Gave promises, and nothing more. He didn't announce to the people that he left them in charge.


    The three high ranks in his place left suspicion and distrust. People believing they push themselves to power because the prince was gone.


    They were citizens. You had messenger sent to get updates on the prince - nothing.


    Even Rommath didn't have the right answers. He left them with a promise. No updates, no further answers other than dead people who sought him.


    Night Elven intruders. Amani uprising again. Wretched growing in numbers. Distrust between the ranks. Questionable usage of power and half the kingdom in ruin. Manageable, yes but not optimal. His temporary leadership was not with answers. They weren't trusted by everyone.


    Fel Crystal in chest = power source. Just like the magi was siphoning in Silvermoon but instead of having to siphon, he had one on him.
    But he did. Lor'Themar was a regent in Kael'Thas absence. halduron and Rommath assisted him with Liadrin being a new force they could rely on.

    Bad writing. They knew their role.

    More bad writing. Still, there were people made to rule while he was away doing greater work.

    He brought back teachings of how to sustain themselves. What promises. It is not as if Kael's presence would save them.

    The usual problems.

    Or a sgn of possession after fel resurrection. It should be retconned anyway to make sense.

  18. #158
    Kael for warchief tbh

  19. #159
    Mechagnome Vrinara's Avatar
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    Rather see someone else be the leader of the Blood elves. We killed him, he really shouldn't come back. That's like saying "Oh Sylvanas should come back and lead the forsaken".... yeah no, not after that cinematic.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Life-Binder View Post
    Kael for warchief tbh
    that's the right attitude.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vrinara View Post
    Rather see someone else be the leader of the Blood elves. We killed him, he really shouldn't come back. That's like saying "Oh Sylvanas should come back and lead the forsaken".... yeah no, not after that cinematic.
    Death means very little for a phoenix. Yes, Sylvanas should lead Forsaken.

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