Kael'thas should return as the leader of Blood Elves

[Schattenlied]

He became a powerhungry psycho, guy was decent back in the day.

It's irrelevant what he was "back in the day", what he ended up as is what matters.

[perkocet]

More importantly, why would the blood elves want anything to do with Kael'thas? The last time any of them heard from him, he led an attack on Silvermoon and took M'uru, which was a significant hit to their morale. Before that, he went south to help the humans, then fucked off to Outland for what, about a decade? And sent an advisor back to show the blood elves how to siphon mana as a stopgap measure in dealing with their mana addiction. The next they heard from him after his return, he tried to use the corrupted Sunwell to bring one of the lords of the Burning Legion to Azeroth.

Meanwhile, Lor'themar (though bland) helped pull them together as a people, sometimes taking drastic steps in the name of keeping things running smoothly in about as much of a worst-case scenario as a culture can have on Azeroth. Under his regency, the blood elves went from on the brink of total collapse, struggling to hold on to what territory they had, to their territory being largely secured, alliances providing them with backup in securing the Ghostlands, and they've bounced back enough that they can spare people for pursuits like establishing a rival archaeological society to the Explorer's League. In In the Shadow of the Sun it's even outright stated that Halduron and Rommath have been trying to push Lor'themar to establish a new dynasty (although, backed up by his NPC chatter in BFA, Lor'themar seems to believe maintaining the regency is sufficient and has no desire to see a new dynasty established, likely out of respect for King Anasterian who was the last King of Silvermoon). If Halduron, Liadrin, Rommath, and Aethas are any indication, Lor'themar has also, to some extent, re-established the Convocation of Silvermoon, suggesting he may be leaning more toward establishing a permanent parliamentary government once things settle down long enough for him to focus on long-term governance rather than just perpetually extend the regency as a band-aid.

And while there's been rough spots under Garrosh and Sylvanas, by and large every decision Lor'themar's made since accepting the regency has been a net gain for the blood elves without necessarily being a net loss for his allies (whereas Anasterian and Kael'thas were less concerned over how their choices impacted their allies, whom they were fair-weather friends with at best).

So with all this taken into account, why would the blood elves, who have been enjoying a resurgence under Lor'themar's leadership, even if it's not exactly the most thrilling regency to live under, suddenly welcome back a prince who betrayed them for power and favor with the Burning Legion? The same Legion, mind you, that engineered the Scourge that nearly wiped them out as a culture and species. Alleria was permanently exiled and told in no uncertain terms she is not welcome back for something she had no control over; why, then, would someone who acted knowingly and with malice be welcomed back and reinstated as King considering the blood elves' reputation for harboring a grudge?

God I agree with every, every, everything you said but ALLERIA KNEW WHAT SHE WAS DOING.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

I'd much rather see a Frankenstein's monster amalgamation of Kael'thas, Arthas, and Garrosh all sewn together.

[perkocet]

I'd much rather see a Frankenstein's monster amalgamation of Kael'thas, Arthas, and Garrosh all sewn together.

Kartharrosh for warchief 2020

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Kartharrosh for warchief 2020

Kael'artharrosh is our only way to save the game.

[matrix123mko]

Alliance puppet? What the fuck are you talking about? Lor'themar even refused to join the Alliance during the Siege of Orgrimmar and called the Alliance bigots.

How would you call someone who thinks Baine is the best Horde can give? From what I remember, he tried to join the Alliance first and he changed his mind only after Dalaran fiasco.

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Is that why he ran errands for Garithos until he was literally thrown into prison?

That was Alliance of convenience. He didn't have alternatives.

[Aeula]

Why though? Lor'themars character is pretty similar to pre bc Kael, with far less of a human fetish.

8.2 shows otherwise. He’s tongue deep in Jaina’s loins.

[matrix123mko]

We literally go to war with otherworldly entities every single expansion. That you people believe the war implies it must be between horde and alliance, is not only stupid..it's played out.

Yes. Faction war is not needed.

Literally, blizzard seems hellbent on removing any horde leader worth noting.

And some people will still shout "horde bias".

[Combatbutler]

8.2 shows otherwise. He’s tongue deep in Jaina’s loins.

Being cordial is being tongue deep in her loins, compared to a guy that canonically wanted to bang her?

[matrix123mko]

With OP just banned, I do still think the thread should stay up on the side topic:

What other ideas can you think of that would give the Horde faction more "Jaina/Tyrande tier powerful main characters?"

The notion of taking from the power of the Sunwell could be interesting for Lor'themar maybe, but it'd need an extreme, real external threat. Maybe the Alliance sets out to finish conquering the Eastern Kingdoms since the Horde has been going after Kalimdor, leading them right to Quel'thalas? There's even already a black scar there, they can just take that express route! Lor'themar resorts to absorbing a huge amount of energy from the Sunwell, manages to beat back the Alliance forces, and afterwards finally decides to set aside the regent-lord title and be crowned amidst the high demand for it from the blood elves.

I could see the forces being lead by Tyrande and Alleria, with a big "Battle of Sun and Moon" theme.

How's that? Better?

He is not a mage. Sunwell powered Rommath would be better.

[Combatbutler]

It's irrelevant what he was "back in the day", what he ended up as is what matters.

The journey matters too, he became such a psycho, because he did not stay at home and instead decided to help the remnants of Lordaeron.

That was Alliance of convenience. He didn't have alternatives.

Of course he had, he didn't have to go there at all, he could have made expeditions anywhere else, but he decided to fight for the Alliance.

[Thage]

How would you call someone who thinks Baine is the best Horde can give? From what I remember, he tried to join the Alliance first and he changed his mind only after Dalaran fiasco.

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That was Alliance of convenience. He didn't have alternatives.

To be fair, Lor'themar views the world through a specific lens: Is this course if action to the blood elves' benefit? Check yes or no. If no, find an alternative.

[Schattenlied]

The journey matters too

It really doesn't, because it doesn't change anything, because he's still a psycho that shouldn't be the leader of a player faction... How he became a psycho is entirely irrelevant to that.

[Combatbutler]

It really doesn't, because it doesn't change anything, because he's still a psycho that shouldn't be the leader of a player faction... How he became a psycho is entirely irrelevant to that.

It is important for the character itself, making him a tragic one. Yes he wouldn't make a good leader now, but he was one, until he got screwed over ,loosing his marbles in the process.

How would you call someone who thinks Baine is the best Horde can give? From what I remember, he tried to join the Alliance first and he changed his mind only after Dalaran fiasco.

He literally declined an invitation at the beginning of the xpack

[matrix123mko]

To be fair, Lor'themar views the world through a specific lens: Is this course if action to the blood elves' benefit? Check yes or no. If no, find an alternative.

How is saving Baine in blood elves' benefit?

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It really doesn't, because it doesn't change anything, because he's still a psycho that shouldn't be the leader of a player faction... How he became a psycho is entirely irrelevant to that.

What does make him psycho? Alleria has eaten naaru and no one protests.

[Schattenlied]

It is important for the character itself, making him a tragic one. Yes he wouldn't make a good leader now, but he was one, until he got screwed over ,loosing his marbles in the process.

Again, if it doesn't have any bearing on the fact that he should not be the leader how is it relevant? Nothing else other than "should he be the current leader of the blood elves?" is being discussed here, whether or not he's a "tragic character" or used to be a good leader are both absolutely and entirely irrelevant to that, because neither of them have any bearing on his current state.

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What does make him psycho? Alleria has eaten naaru and no one protests.

Because context is important?

Alleria has not joined forces with the void, and is not helping it, she's just using it's power, and that Naaru was corrupt and trying to kill everyone it saw on sight, Alleria has done nothing psychotic, her actions have all been quite logically sound and rational... Kael'thas actively helped bring KJ into Azeroth, and if we hadn't stopped him the world would have ended.

These two things are not remotely the same.

[Thage]

How is saving Baine in blood elves' benefit?

Saving Baine is to their benefit because Sylvanas has become a hazard to their safety. Right now, Silvermoon is the closest Horde capital to Alliance territory. The more she pisses off the Alliance, the bigger a target she puts on their back.

Siding with Baine, and against her, takes that target off. She's got her hands full with Baine and Saurfang, and the Alliance isn't looking to move on Baine's allies.

This logic is also why he sought to defect before the Purge of Dalaran changed the variables. Again, his logic is always to act in the blood elves' interests first.

[Aeula]

Being cordial is being tongue deep in her loins, compared to a guy that canonically wanted to bang her?

I don’t like kael much either, but at least he got over his disgusting fetish.

[sam86]

NO
I HATE what they did to him in TBC, but for me the idea of rezzing ppl is a big fat NO
i know they did it already way too much, but can they just stop it, forget that it ever exist ? death already in meaningless, i'm glad that varian is surprising not alive yet, i expect him, but i'll be really happy to be wrong
do not rez anything ever

[matrix123mko]

Being cordial is being tongue deep in her loins, compared to a guy that canonically wanted to bang her?

That's different. Lor'themar is being tongue deep in political means, in time of war with her. Kael just wanted to bang her privately and she was his subordinate.

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Saving Baine is to their benefit because Sylvanas has become a hazard to their safety. Right now, Silvermoon is the closest Horde capital to Alliance territory. The more she pisses off the Alliance, the bigger a target she puts on their back.

Siding with Baine, and against her, takes that target off. She's got her hands full with Baine and Saurfang, and the Alliance isn't looking to move on Baine's allies.

This logic is also why he sought to defect before the Purge of Dalaran changed the variables. Again, his logic is always to act in the blood elves' interests first.

It is really weird that all Horde leaders believe that Alliance will sign a peace treaty instantly if Sylvanas dies. It is also weird that Alliance wants that even though they were asking Anduin to attack the Horde for entire Legion.