1. #11321
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    This isn't about removing Trump. That'll be done in the election.

    This is about inflicting damage.

    We've won by doing it and you lose by fighting it.
    On Thanksgiving, Trump was a +130 underdog to win reelection (with Bovada). As of December 26, they had him at -110. I guess you got your moral victory, but people that are putting money on the line sure don't seem to believe impeachment is inflicting damage to his reelection chances.

  2. #11322
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    On Thanksgiving, Trump was a +130 underdog to win reelection (with Bovada). As of December 26, they had him at -110. I guess you got your moral victory, but people that are putting money on the line sure don't seem to believe impeachment is inflicting damage to his reelection chances.
    Didn't those same betting sites have Hillary winning with large odds in her favor in 2016?

  3. #11323
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Isolated Democrats with no meaningful support have tried, yes. And if you bothered to pay any attention, you'd know that after Democrats took back the House in 2018 there was a very vocal and hard push for impeachment almost immediately after the session began.

    And if you bothered to pay any attention, you'd know that Nancy Pelosi repeatedly rebuffed those efforts and urged caution, patience, and refused to bend an inch to those demands.

    This is technically a true narrative, because there were issues of isolated Democrats calling for impeachment since January 2017. But in the context of the discussion is wildly dishonest and inaccurate and completely dismisses the year+ of Nancy Pelosi rebuffing attempt after attempt to force the issue and press forward with impeachment investigations. Because "impeach the motherfucker" may have been a celebrated line for some when Omar said it (I think it was her), but it has never been an official Democratic position.
    I will give you credit for actually admitting truths, even though you brush them off as technicalities. Notice the liberals above you keep trying to push false narratives and such. However, you had a democratic congresswoman saying that people who already have made up their mind about impeachment should be recusing themselves. If that had happened during the house vote, there would be no impeachment. And Waters, Green, and others have been trying to impeach since the election, so I think you are discounting many of the angry democratic congressmen.

    There are 2 reasons Pelosi changed and went ahead with impeachment. First is that her base is skewing further left and they want impeachment. For months she said no and finally gave in--knowing full well it would die in the senate. Knowing It dies in the senate. Her second reason is that the democrat candidates are so weak, they have to keep impeachment in the news. Once impeachment leaves the news, what do these candidates talk about? Medicare for all? Healthcare for all illegal immigrants? Taking away fossil fuel jobs and making miners learn coding???? Seriously, they are killing themselves and the only thing keeping it out of the news is impeachment.

  4. #11324
    Quote Originally Posted by TexasRules View Post
    I will give you credit for actually admitting truths, even though you brush them off as technicalities. Notice the liberals above you keep trying to push false narratives and such. However, you had a democratic congresswoman saying that people who already have made up their mind about impeachment should be recusing themselves. If that had happened during the house vote, there would be no impeachment. And Waters, Green, and others have been trying to impeach since the election, so I think you are discounting many of the angry democratic congressmen.

    There are 2 reasons Pelosi changed and went ahead with impeachment. First is that her base is skewing further left and they want impeachment. For months she said no and finally gave in--knowing full well it would die in the senate. Knowing It dies in the senate. Her second reason is that the democrat candidates are so weak, they have to keep impeachment in the news. Once impeachment leaves the news, what do these candidates talk about? Medicare for all? Healthcare for all illegal immigrants? Taking away fossil fuel jobs and making miners learn coding???? Seriously, they are killing themselves and the only thing keeping it out of the news is impeachment.
    So that has nothing to do with the fact that Trump tried to get foreign help to win in 2020? it's all leftists trying to get him. Trump in the front lawn of the white house admitting to it and asking China to help him investigate the Bidens? Rudy going on TV admitting he was seeking dirt on the Biden for Trump multiple times? Mulvaney saying they do this all the time get over it? For your narrative to make sense you have to say that there is nothing fishy about what Trump did with Ukraine, are you 100% supportive of any president or candidate doing what Trump did?

    Let say for example it came out that Joe Biden is working with the EU to help him win in 2020 by launching a smear campaign against Trump you would be fine with that?

  5. #11325
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    This isn't about removing Trump. That'll be done in the election.

    This is about inflicting damage.

    We've won by doing it and you lose by fighting it.
    I'll take a wager to match that check you wrote your precious democratic party for doing what the founding fathers warned against and partisan impeaching. Does it still count as impeachment if you actually do not try to remove the President? Do you take your money back if they do not even try to remove him?

    You are sooooo overconfident, tell me which of these candidates can beat Trump. The only one who has a chance is Biden and he is single-handedly trying to take himself out. The socialists will lose simply by being socialist, the gay mayor can not win, that leaves Biden... who wants miners to learn coding?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I say so, the historical record says so. People have been bleating the same nonsense as you for, literally, more than a century. It's the same arguments that were raised in response to ending slavery. And then women's suffrage. And then the Civil Rights movement. And so forth. Always some claim of how this is a great societal decay, a bunch of violence by extremists in response, and then society continues on and improves significantly until the next injustice is to be addressed, and then the fearmongerers like yourself start up the whole thing all over again.

    You've never been right about this stuff.
    [Infraction]
    I like how I get banned for one off topic post earlier in this thread, the other 2 people arguing with you both get banned, but ex moderator also gets infracted for MULTIPLE off topic posts and doesn't get banned. Nice selective enforcement.

  6. #11326
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasRules View Post
    I like how I get banned for one off topic post earlier in this thread, the other 2 people arguing with you both get banned, but ex moderator also gets infracted for MULTIPLE off topic posts and doesn't get banned. Nice selective enforcement.
    I had zero infraction points before that infraction. It was a 5-point infraction, and bans don't trigger until you hit 15 points. I do not have multiple active infractions; that's simply untrue. I've got just the one, right now.

    As a point of fact, when I reported the derailing, I asked for that infraction you're pointing to. Specifically. I'd forgotten the thread warning, and had contributed, so I knew I deserved it.

    You really should get the facts before claiming some grand conspiracy.

    Sort of a descriptor of exactly why folks like yourself are frothing about Hunter Biden to try and distract from the impeachment; you can't speak any actual defense of the bad conduct, so you make up a story that has no real basis in fact, and pretend some grand double standard is in play, when the simple truth is that your story misrepresents the facts.

    How have you been posting here for 8.5 years and not figured out how the infraction system works? It's right in the rules; https://www.mmo-champion.com/faq.php...es_infractions

    I'm pretty sure that text hasn't changed in nearly that entire time, if at all.

    I'm not going to let you drag me into another derail about moderation. I made sure to tie this post in to the impeachment discussion, and I'm not going to respond further regarding moderation. Simply noting you don't actually know the facts in this particular case, and chose to spout off anyway while making stuff up.
    Last edited by Endus; 2020-01-01 at 10:47 PM.

  7. #11327
    I'm sure the founding fathers would find a lot about modern US to be grossly offensive. For fuck's sake, women are wearing pants.

    Regarding the presidency, impeachment was absolutely meant for someone like Trump. Not only has he be an incompetent leader, but he's went out of his way to corrupt the office. There's so many impeachable things to choose from. Whether its his sub/dom relationship with Putin or his funneling of taxpayer money into his own pocket. I don't think a single month has went by without him doing something that would have gotten any other president impeached and removed.

    Each founding father would look at what Trump has done and be thoroughly disgusted that such a person even became president in the first place.

    When it comes to Pelosi, republicans have no one to blame but themselves. McConnel and Graham admitted on live TV that they were going to break their oath and rig the trial. Want to be mad at someone? It sure as hell shouldn't be Pelosi.
    Last edited by Blur4stuff; 2020-01-01 at 11:19 PM.

  8. #11328
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Didn't those same betting sites have Hillary winning with large odds in her favor in 2016?
    Probably - all available evidence leading into election day suggested that she should have been something like a 3-1 favorite.

  9. #11329
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Probably - all available evidence leading into election day suggested that she should have been something like a 3-1 favorite.
    The polling after the Comey bomb had her within the margin of error in most swing states so these sites not exactly the best place to hang your hat on.

  10. #11330
    Don't forget Trump lost by millions of votes to Hillary. She was incredibly disliked and as mentioned, Comey really fucked her over. Despite all of that, Trump barely squeaked by because of thousands of votes in a few states. At no point has Trump been liked or supported by a majority of voters.

    Trump has fewer republican supporters now than in 2016. His terrible performance as president has also energized the dem base well beyond what it was in 2016. Millions of independents that thought, "fuck it let's see what happens" won't vote for him again. Two big sources of republican votes come from boomers/silents and white men; two groups that have only shrunk since 2016.

    So where are the votes coming from that will give Trump a 2020 victory?

  11. #11331
    Quote Originally Posted by TexasRules View Post
    I will give you credit for actually admitting truths, even though you brush them off as technicalities. Notice the liberals above you keep trying to push false narratives and such. However, you had a democratic congresswoman saying that people who already have made up their mind about impeachment should be recusing themselves. If that had happened during the house vote, there would be no impeachment. And Waters, Green, and others have been trying to impeach since the election, so I think you are discounting many of the angry democratic congressmen.

    There are 2 reasons Pelosi changed and went ahead with impeachment. First is that her base is skewing further left and they want impeachment. For months she said no and finally gave in--knowing full well it would die in the senate. Knowing It dies in the senate. Her second reason is that the democrat candidates are so weak, they have to keep impeachment in the news. Once impeachment leaves the news, what do these candidates talk about? Medicare for all? Healthcare for all illegal immigrants? Taking away fossil fuel jobs and making miners learn coding???? Seriously, they are killing themselves and the only thing keeping it out of the news is impeachment.
    I'm sure Trump getting caught red handed trying to bribe a foriegn government for personal gain hand zero to do with Pelosi's change on the matter, which again he's been breaking the law and corrupting the office since he was sworn in. Trump tower meeting alone would of had impeached any democrat president and the democrats would of voted for removal, yet republicans continue put power and greed over country and their oaths of office.

    on a quick side note. you keep bringing up miners, and yet under 45 coal jobs have drastically dropped, even one the largest companies went belly up, so as the trend has been for decades coal jobs are drying up, whats the Republican's answer? simply wishing "make coal great again" won't bring coal back. So why do you keep trying to vilify actual solutions to the problems, or do you actually think "thoughts and prayers" will fix the problem?

  12. #11332
    Quote Originally Posted by Blur4stuff View Post
    Don't forget Trump lost by millions of votes to Hillary. She was incredibly disliked and as mentioned, Comey really fucked her over. Despite all of that, Trump barely squeaked by because of thousands of votes in a few states. At no point has Trump been liked or supported by a majority of voters.

    Trump has fewer republican supporters now than in 2016. His terrible performance as president has also energized the dem base well beyond what it was in 2016. Millions of independents that thought, "fuck it let's see what happens" won't vote for him again. Two big sources of republican votes come from boomers/silents and white men; two groups that have only shrunk since 2016.

    So where are the votes coming from that will give Trump a 2020 victory?
    I wouldn't underestimate democrats ability to shoot themselves in the foot for example Biden picking a "moderate" as his VP instead of a progressive to keep the base together among many other possible fuck ups including a contested convention. While Trump is pretty much guaranteed to lose the popular vote by millions he only needs to win the swing states last time he won by 70-80K not to mention he will have even more foreign help blessed by the GOP.

  13. #11333
    Quote Originally Posted by TexasRules View Post
    I will give you credit for actually admitting truths, even though you brush them off as technicalities. Notice the liberals above you keep trying to push false narratives and such. However, you had a democratic congresswoman saying that people who already have made up their mind about impeachment should be recusing themselves. If that had happened during the house vote, there would be no impeachment. And Waters, Green, and others have been trying to impeach since the election, so I think you are discounting many of the angry democratic congressmen.

    There are 2 reasons Pelosi changed and went ahead with impeachment. First is that her base is skewing further left and they want impeachment. For months she said no and finally gave in--knowing full well it would die in the senate. Knowing It dies in the senate. Her second reason is that the democrat candidates are so weak, they have to keep impeachment in the news. Once impeachment leaves the news, what do these candidates talk about? Medicare for all? Healthcare for all illegal immigrants? Taking away fossil fuel jobs and making miners learn coding???? Seriously, they are killing themselves and the only thing keeping it out of the news is impeachment.
    Every time I hear about how there was a lot of push to impeach Trump right from the word go, I'm reminded of that line from Liar Liar when a client asks Jim Carrey's character for advice after he's been caught doing something illegal again. Jim Carrey just yells down the phone "STOP BREAKING THE LAW ASSHOLE".

    Someone needs to yell that at Trump. Someone needed to yell that at Trump a while ago. Because if he'd stop breaking the law, people would stop trying to impeach him.

  14. #11334
    Immortal Templar 331's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasRules View Post
    There are 2 reasons Pelosi changed and went ahead with impeachment. First is that her base is skewing further left and they want impeachment.
    Didn't know impeachment was a left leaning idea. Did anyone tell the Republicans in the 90's? Or the founding fathers?

    As for the rest of your post I was going to respond to it but that would be derailing the thread. But I will say, the only reason you are attacking the Democratic candidates is because Trump doesn't have a leg to stand on and it's his own fault.

  15. #11335
    The Insane Masark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar 331 View Post
    Didn't know impeachment was a left leaning idea. Did anyone tell the Republicans in the 90's? Or the founding fathers?
    It probably was a fairly left idea the founding fathers time, as opposed to divine right of kings, which current republicans would really like back it seems.

    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
    What the world has learned is that America is never more than one election away from losing its goddamned mind
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  16. #11336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    It probably was a fairly left idea the founding fathers time, as opposed to divine right of kings, which current republicans would really like back it seems.
    And that's the beauty of it. God knows how many times I've heard people defend the 2nd Amendment with "as our founding fathers intended!!!"

  17. #11337
    Quote Originally Posted by Templar 331 View Post
    Didn't know impeachment was a left leaning idea. Did anyone tell the Republicans in the 90's? Or the founding fathers?

    As for the rest of your post I was going to respond to it but that would be derailing the thread. But I will say, the only reason you are attacking the Democratic candidates is because Trump doesn't have a leg to stand on and it's his own fault.
    Impeaching on the grounds of Orange Man is pretty left-leaning, though. It's not middle America Democrats that are flogging this, it's a political loser with, like, every lost Obama voter that went for Trump... but Twitter and the Squad want it, and Pelosi is trying to sate them, quick and dirty and have it out of the way and forgotten before it can sink her majority.

  18. #11338
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormdash View Post
    Impeaching on the grounds of Orange Man is pretty left-leaning, though. It's not middle America Democrats that are flogging this, it's a political loser with, like, every lost Obama voter that went for Trump... but Twitter and the Squad want it, and Pelosi is trying to sate them, quick and dirty and have it out of the way and forgotten before it can sink her majority.
    That's not why he's being impeached, try and keep up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  19. #11339
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormdash View Post
    Impeaching on the grounds of Orange Man is pretty left-leaning, though. It's not middle America Democrats that are flogging this, it's a political loser with, like, every lost Obama voter that went for Trump... but Twitter and the Squad want it, and Pelosi is trying to sate them, quick and dirty and have it out of the way and forgotten before it can sink her majority.
    Again he got impeached because of something he did just like Clinton for your narrative to work you literally have to ignore reality and pretend Trump's entire Ukraine shit show with Rudy never happened.

  20. #11340
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    On Thanksgiving, Trump was a +130 underdog to win reelection (with Bovada). As of December 26, they had him at -110. I guess you got your moral victory, but people that are putting money on the line sure don't seem to believe impeachment is inflicting damage to his reelection chances.
    I want you to understand something. I'm not quite sure you do, so I'm going to put it plainly.

    Trump is symptomatic. If he were to resign tomorrow, few things would suddenly get better. The biggest immediate benefit would be is that someone (Pence) less corrupt, self-interested and more loyal to the United States would be commander-in-chief and the security threat he represents would be mitigated. And were he to lose reelection in 2020, that would be 50% of the reason for being joys at seeing his back... the other half is a Democratic President opening up all White House records to investigators.

    But that's it.

    Because the problem isn't Trump. He's the tumor. The cancer is the folks who put him there. The folks who made a faustian bargain with him and rationalized it. The folks who overlooked the betrayals of our country he has committed, the corruption, the incompetence, because they got something. The folks who, when the time came to defend the Constitution, started to make excuses.

    Trump has shown that there is a very ugly strain of Authoritarian supporters in America who proclaim fealty to the rule of law and the Constitution, but when the time comes to actually show it, they are as compromised as the members of United Russia (Putin's nominal political party). They love the Constitution so long as it does not get in the way of their agenda. And when it does, they freely step on it.

    These people deny objective reality
    These people engage in wild conspiracy theories.
    THese people, most foolishly, utilize the failures of others to rationalize their support for a man who never should have been President.

    That's the rot. That's the cancer. Millions of American completely unworthy of the liberal democracy they inherited, and in fact, are out right contemptuous of it.

    The Impeachment - an indictment in effect - is not just an indictment of Trump, but an indictment of the people who put him there. Every voter. Every TV host. Every forum poster. In that, Trump's defenders are correct. It is an attack on 60 million people, because when the time came, 60 million people betrayed the Constitution and betrayed our national interests rather than do the brave thing. And it wasn't a one off event. Many of them have kept doing it for the last three years.

    Treating this cancer is going to take many years and many elections. It's going to involve political trascendent leaders who haven't arrived yet. It's going to involve many investigations and trials. It's going to involve shaming Trump supporters for decades to come.

    And that's what impeachement is. A scarlet letter. It is the majority of Americans - 51% to 55% telling the 40% against impeachment and have generally been supporting of Trump, that they are in the wrong.

    You might not thing that matters much. You are mistaken. It is the only thing that matters.

    Take Andrew Johnson. Generally regarded as a terrible President. He was a racist on a unity ticket with Lincoln, who upon his ascension, fought radical reconstruction by Republicans. He was impeached and very nearly removed. And the character of that impeachment is quite clear too: Republicans basically laid a trap for him and set him up. Nothing else Andrew Johnson did is particularly relevant or remembered. All that his name is associated with is the failure of reconstruction, impeachment and near removal, and Republicans in the House and Senate laying a trap for him.

    Or take Nixon. His' record as President in terms of achievement is pretty darn amazing. He took the US off the gold standard. He exited the US from Vietnam. He opened relations with China and exacerbated the Soviet-Sino split. He signed bills that planted the seeds of post-Vietnam military modernization. He was President for all of the moon landings. The Space Shuttle program began under him as well. He signed several landmark arms control treaties with the Soviets and lead to detente with them. It's a pretty impressive record, when viewed from that angle. Certainly far more than Trump's. Far more than most Presidents.

    But what's the thing that matters? Watergate. He tried to cheat, got caught, lied about it, and resigned before impeachment and certain removal. That is Nixon's only historic legacy. Not the genuine improvements to the national interest, that were important. But the fact he attacked our constitutional principles and was held to account. That is all we have learned about Nixon, unless you really get into the history of it all.

    That is what is in store for Donald Trump and his supporters. His record of success is thin. A couple of Supreme Court judges? Some appeals court judges? A tax cut? Other Presidents have done that and far, far more. His supporters treating that record as something great and historic just speaks to the utter downgrading of their standards. He has shaped no budgets and few pieces of legislation. He has begun no meaningful initiatives. He has seen constant erosion of his power. He is no Nixon. He's not even a Ford.

    And now impeached, forevermore the only thing that matters is that is that Donald Trump will be the President who tried to cheat in the 2020 election by bribing a foreign government, got caught, and got impeached for it. And fortunately - and this is the fun part - Mitch McConnell is being a very helpful accomplice to those efforts by portraying Trump's impending acquittal from the outside as the most compromised thing possible. And that is how history will record it and Children will learn it: a corrupt President was confronted by the majority of Americans but only saved because of more systemic corruption, whose root predated Trump. McConnell's strategy here, is pure short term (but he'll be dead in a few years and hardly cares). In the long term, it's completely ruinous to ever telling an alternative story where Trump was unjusted impeached. Because of McConnell, it is only the guilty protecting the guilty, with the majority of Americans, honoring the Constition, doing what they could.

    That lesson - the one we teach our Children - is how we recover from this dark era. That's the real war. That's how we recover not just from Trump, but the things that made Trump possible. That's how we treat the cancer.

    You call it a moral victory? It's a victory for all time. Hell Trump being re-elected and serving 4 more disastrous years where the national interest is systemically pillaged to enrich him and his friends might even help our cause.

    Nancy Pelosi and the House Democrats did something great and important by being the champions of the majority of American standing against the illegitimate President of the United States, his supporters, and you. Henceforth there is the liberal democratic Party (small d now) of which the Democratic Party (big D) is a subset, and the authoritarian party of Trump.

    And it will be nothing but the first of many episodes of the defenders of the Constitution standing against those who would rape it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TexasRules View Post
    I'll take a wager to match that check you wrote your precious democratic party for doing what the founding fathers warned against and partisan impeaching. Does it still count as impeachment if you actually do not try to remove the President? Do you take your money back if they do not even try to remove him?

    You are sooooo overconfident, tell me which of these candidates can beat Trump. The only one who has a chance is Biden and he is single-handedly trying to take himself out. The socialists will lose simply by being socialist, the gay mayor can not win, that leaves Biden... who wants miners to learn coding?
    .
    The Democratic Party isn't precious to me. They are my allies and they have followed the Constitution to the letter by impeaching your illegitimate President for a crime the Founders would have recognized.

    He tried to solicit foreign help via a bribe, in order to cheat in an election. An abuse of his office, a betrayal of the national interest and a violation of the Constitution and his oath. That is the only thing that matters. And now it is a matter of history he will go on trial for it, where Mitch McConnell, being super useful in his demeanor thus far, has telegraphed a tainted, compromised outcome, thus further engraving into our history the un-American practices of Trump and his supporters.

    Trump has been formally impeached, period. And no I don't take my money back.

    And Biden will likely win the nomination. And then he's well positioned to beat Trump.

    But you know what... you @TexasRules, have a problem on your hand. Because even if Biden doesn't, a Democratic President is coming some day.... 2024... 2028 whenever., And that Democratic President will legally pursue Trump-era figures and just as importantly, open up all the files and recordings the Trump White House is hiding away.

    The next Democratic President, whenever that may be, will engage in a systemic disection of the Trump White House to expose to the public what went on behind closed door ans find (and expand upon) any wrong doing.

    That is coming... one day... hopefully in 2020, but if not, you know... one day. And then what? Because you and your ilk have supported the most corrupt administration since Warren Harding that has been besieged by trials, investigations and convictions and only carries on because striking at the President himself is genuinely hard. But that won't last forever, and Private Citizen Trump will be held to account too.

    What do you do then? How do you think this ends well for you?

    My grandfather used to have a saying: if you walk the line, you'll never have to look over your shoulder. It means that if you stay true to yourself and a moral center, you'll never have any meaningful regrets. She's here for the Holidays and I told her I'm so thankful my immigrant grandfather (from Latin America) who loved this country so much never lived to see this dark, hateful age where that saying was so flagrantly violated by so many people who fashion themselves "real Americans".

    But the fact of the matter is, TexasRules, you and all the Trump supporters have not walked the line. You have badly deviated (and I kind of think you know it). And one day the bill will come due. And what then? Because it'll never happen for my side, who have been consistent defenders of the Constitutional order you see so little value in, besides your almighty Second Amendment.

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