1. #12301
    Among the evidence just produced by the House Intelligence Committee - a note from Parnas saying "get Zalensky to Annonce that the Biden case will be investigated" https://t.co/nswPgc1kmF
    https://twitter.com/nicholaswu12/sta...114285574?s=19

    Seems much evidence breaking tonight. 1)Parnas and get this...a background actor on The Sapronos and Congressional candidate trying to get rid of Yovanovitch.

    Also Rudy was pressing to meet Zalensky?
    Artist formerly known as Shon237

  2. #12302
    Quote Originally Posted by Martymark View Post
    My opinion: To justify impeachment? No, I wouldn't consider it a "high crime". Censure would have been fine though.
    "High crimes and misdemeanors" is the bar, though. While I would agree Trump's actions with Ukraine don't fit my personal definition of "high crime", it sure as Hell shoots past "misdemeanor" in seriousness.

    Here are some examples of "misdemeanors" (C+P job):

    Class A:

    Assault causing bodily injury
    Burglary
    DUI with no bodily injury
    Resisting arrest
    Perjury
    Possession of a controlled substance
    Unlawful possession of a weapon
    Violation of a restraining order

    Class B:

    Criminal trespass
    Certain types of terroristic threats
    Certain types of assault
    Indecent exposure
    Prostitution
    Graffiti
    Theft of property worth more than $50, but less than $500

    Class C:

    Disorderly conduct
    Certain types of assault
    Reckless damage or destruction
    Leaving a child unattended in a vehicle
    Criminal trespass
    Theft of property worth less than $50
    Issuing a bad check
    Falsely reporting a missing child or person

    Trump's actions are objectively worse than a significant number of the above. "Misdemeanor" is a low bar, because the President's actions are supposed to be beyond reproach.

  3. #12303
    The Insane Masark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Trump supporter =
    That first emoji doesn't belong there.

    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
    What the world has learned is that America is never more than one election away from losing its goddamned mind
    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Tayler
    Political conservatism is just atavism with extra syllables and a necktie.
    Me on Elite : Dangerous | My WoW characters

  4. #12304
    Quote Originally Posted by Drutt View Post
    "High crimes and misdemeanors" is the bar, though. While I would agree Trump's actions with Ukraine don't fit my personal definition of "high crime", it sure as Hell shoots past "misdemeanor" in seriousness.

    Here are some examples of "misdemeanors" (C+P job):

    Class A:

    Assault causing bodily injury
    Burglary
    DUI with no bodily injury
    Resisting arrest
    Perjury
    Possession of a controlled substance
    Unlawful possession of a weapon
    Violation of a restraining order

    Class B:

    Criminal trespass
    Certain types of terroristic threats
    Certain types of assault
    Indecent exposure
    Prostitution
    Graffiti
    Theft of property worth more than $50, but less than $500

    Class C:

    Disorderly conduct
    Certain types of assault
    Reckless damage or destruction
    Leaving a child unattended in a vehicle
    Criminal trespass
    Theft of property worth less than $50
    Issuing a bad check
    Falsely reporting a missing child or person

    Trump's actions are objectively worse than a significant number of the above. "Misdemeanor" is a low bar, because the President's actions are supposed to be beyond reproach.
    /facepalm The term high crimes and misdemeanors isn't about actual crimes and misdemeanors. It's about abuse of office.
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    100:1 odds that he wont
    Quote Originally Posted by freefolk View Post
    Okay. I'll stop sharing my views.

  5. #12305
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    How do you interpret this part?

    "Paul Manafort and aide Rick Gates, both pleaded guilty to 'conspiracy against the United States' both actively seeking to cultivate a relationship with the Russian government and willing to work with it to acquire damaging information about its political opponents. That willingness included explicitly sharing information with or soliciting information from Russian operatives.”
    What page in the Mueller report is that excerpt from?

  6. #12306
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    What page in the Mueller report is that excerpt from?
    oh, so they shouldn't have plead guilty...
    Acquittal doesn't mean exoneration


  7. #12307
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    oh, so they shouldn't have plead guilty...
    I just can't even find the excerpt. It's a voluminous report, so I don't have every detail memorized. Looking for that passage or something similar so I can read the context and perhaps comment on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Each time they peace out and decide to stop talking about it when they are overwhelmed by the facts.
    I apologize if I can't continue a conversation straight through; I'm running inch and a half rigid conduit at an electrical substation, it sort of takes priority over arguing on Gen-OT.

    Edit: I guess this whole Mueller sidebar is way off topic, I'll probably just let it rest. Edge-, Endus, Elegiac, and others have at least acknowledged my points while offering their own, instead of just getting outraged and frustrated and name-calling like we've seen over the past few pages, so I appreciate that.
    Last edited by Dacien; 2020-01-15 at 12:32 AM.

  8. #12308
    Quote Originally Posted by Belize View Post
    Literally irrelevant when discussing facts.
    I was responding to someone who specifically asked for my opinion. Thank you for your opinion.

  9. #12309
    Quote Originally Posted by Drutt View Post
    "High crimes and misdemeanors" is the bar, though. While I would agree Trump's actions with Ukraine don't fit my personal definition of "high crime", it sure as Hell shoots past "misdemeanor" in seriousness.

    Here are some examples of "misdemeanors" (C+P job):

    Class A:

    Assault causing bodily injury
    Burglary
    DUI with no bodily injury
    Resisting arrest
    Perjury
    Possession of a controlled substance
    Unlawful possession of a weapon
    Violation of a restraining order

    Class B:

    Criminal trespass
    Certain types of terroristic threats
    Certain types of assault
    Indecent exposure
    Prostitution
    Graffiti
    Theft of property worth more than $50, but less than $500

    Class C:

    Disorderly conduct
    Certain types of assault
    Reckless damage or destruction
    Leaving a child unattended in a vehicle
    Criminal trespass
    Theft of property worth less than $50
    Issuing a bad check
    Falsely reporting a missing child or person

    Trump's actions are objectively worse than a significant number of the above. "Misdemeanor" is a low bar, because the President's actions are supposed to be beyond reproach.

    As much as I overall hate the boring originality argument it is still ultimately important to understand that certain words like liberty weren't used/didn't mean exactly the same thing they do today. High crimes in this context is one of them.

    You and most others it appear are using the wrong definition of "high crime". A "high crime" is not something like super treason or mega murder which or extreme espionage which seems to be the go to for what people think it is. It specifically refers to crimes such as an abuse of office for personal gain particularly in a way that a normal person could not. It also includes severe violations of the public trust in how we expect an office to be faithfully carried out and there is absolutely no requirement that impeachable conduct under the "high crimes and misdemeanors standard" be an on the book crime like murder. It can also be grave/terrible conduct unfitting the office or a form of corruption that while not explicitly illegal give the public office holder a benefit that they are not owed soley because of their position.

    And there are very many actions that even if they're not technically crimes such as Trump hiding his transcripts on a secret server where they aren't normally stored like other diplomatic communications of the same to keep people from accessing them not for national security reason but for personal political reasons that may not be explicitly breaking any law but are definitely a "high crime and misdemeanor" because he's abusing his office and his ability to classify/declassify information not for the public good as he was sworn to act but for his own personal benefit.


    We ripped our system from the British for impeachment and they've always left impeachment deliberately open ended because you never knew how an abuse power could take place and relying on criminal statues was deemed a bad idea. In fact a huge chunk of the people the British Parliament impeached were for misconduct that technically wasn't criminal at all but it was a violation of the public trust by misusing their power. One man Attorney General Henry Yelvertorn was impeached basically because he was so bad at his job Parliament couldn't take it anymore.
    “Logic: The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding.”
    "Conservative, n: A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal who wishes to replace them with others."
    Ambrose Bierce
    The Bird of Hermes Is My Name, Eating My Wings To Make Me Tame.

  10. #12310
    https://www.courant.com/politics/hc-...hey-story.html

    Wait wait wait... Republican House Rep. Robert F. Hyde of Connecticut was the one behind what appears to be actual spying on a US ambassador and appears to have openly discussed bribing nearby businesses? So it was Hyde, directing Parnas and company to legitimately spy on Yavanovitch?

    If this is true, this is one of the biggest cases of projection I've seen in a while, and should lead to his immediate removal from office until the next election.

    Now I'm far more curious about what else Parnas has shared, because this is damning already.

  11. #12311
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martymark View Post
    My opinion: To justify impeachment? No, I wouldn't consider it a "high crime". Censure would have been fine though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drutt View Post
    "High crimes and misdemeanors" is the bar, though. While I would agree Trump's actions with Ukraine don't fit my personal definition of "high crime", it sure as Hell shoots past "misdemeanor" in seriousness.

    Here are some examples of "misdemeanors" (C+P job):

    Class A:

    Assault causing bodily injury
    Burglary
    DUI with no bodily injury
    Resisting arrest
    Perjury
    Possession of a controlled substance
    Unlawful possession of a weapon
    Violation of a restraining order

    Class B:

    Criminal trespass
    Certain types of terroristic threats
    Certain types of assault
    Indecent exposure
    Prostitution
    Graffiti
    Theft of property worth more than $50, but less than $500

    Class C:

    Disorderly conduct
    Certain types of assault
    Reckless damage or destruction
    Leaving a child unattended in a vehicle
    Criminal trespass
    Theft of property worth less than $50
    Issuing a bad check
    Falsely reporting a missing child or person

    Trump's actions are objectively worse than a significant number of the above. "Misdemeanor" is a low bar, because the President's actions are supposed to be beyond reproach.
    As others have noticed; the above explanation is really incorrect, since all "high crimes" means is "any abuse of the powers of the office". That could be as simple as getting a lobbyist's son to mow your lawn for free in exchange for extra consideration; that's totally 100% legal, but it's an abuse of the powers of the office, and thus impeachable (even if unlikely to be seen as serious enough to warrant removal, based on that alone).

  12. #12312
    The Insane Belize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    https://www.courant.com/politics/hc-...hey-story.html

    Wait wait wait... Republican House Rep. Robert F. Hyde of Connecticut was the one behind what appears to be actual spying on a US ambassador and appears to have openly discussed bribing nearby businesses? So it was Hyde, directing Parnas and company to legitimately spy on Yavanovitch?

    If this is true, this is one of the biggest cases of projection I've seen in a while, and should lead to his immediate removal from office until the next election.

    Now I'm far more curious about what else Parnas has shared, because this is damning already.
    Someone is about to announce he's going to spend more time with his family.

  13. #12313
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    https://www.courant.com/politics/hc-...hey-story.html

    Wait wait wait... Republican House Rep. Robert F. Hyde of Connecticut was the one behind what appears to be actual spying on a US ambassador and appears to have openly discussed bribing nearby businesses? So it was Hyde, directing Parnas and company to legitimately spy on Yavanovitch?

    If this is true, this is one of the biggest cases of projection I've seen in a while, and should lead to his immediate removal from office until the next election.

    Now I'm far more curious about what else Parnas has shared, because this is damning already.
    he's running for office, he (thankfully) is not and has not had a house seat

  14. #12314
    Quote Originally Posted by D Luniz View Post
    he's running for office, he (thankfully) is not and has not had a house seat
    Ah, I missed the "candidate" bit. In that case, he shouldn't receive a lick of RNC support, at the very least.

  15. #12315
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    Edit: I guess this whole Mueller sidebar is way off topic, I'll probably just let it rest. Edge-, Endus, Elegiac, and others have at least acknowledged my points while offering their own, instead of just getting outraged and frustrated and name-calling like we've seen over the past few pages, so I appreciate that.
    And I'm sure you'll also be appreciative of that the next 50 times it happens too, but some people don't have that level of patience so I hope you can understand why they get outraged and frustrated.

  16. #12316
    Quote Originally Posted by Martymark View Post
    My opinion: To justify impeachment? No, I wouldn't consider it a "high crime". Censure would have been fine though.
    Even though Bribery is specifically listed in the constitution? You don't think it is impeachment worthy? I can tell you aren't a constitutional lawyer.

  17. #12317
    Immortal Stormspark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    DocSavage, Texasrules, and many other posters have posted,

    "wHaTeVeR hApPeNnEd To TrUmP rUsSiA cOnSpIrAcY?!?!?!?!!!!!!"

    about 100 times now.

    Each time they are given a very thorough answer about the Mueller report and what it established.

    Each time they peace out and decide to stop talking about it when they are overwhelmed by the facts.

    Each time, 10-30 pages later, they come back and ask the same question, AGAIN.

    I realize it's important for lurkers to see the truth, but I seriously don't get how people don't tire of these shenanigans. They're constantly posting conspiracy theories about Trump when doing this, which is against the forum rules, as is the thing they are doing which is explicitly against the rules, but nobody can call it out, because THAT is also against the rules, and you can report them, but no punishment is doled because "pOlItIcAl OpInIoNs"

    At this point, aren't "wHaTeVeR hApPeNnEd To TrUmP rUsSiA cOnSpIrAcY?!?!?!?!!!!!!" posts just off topic at this point? Serious question. I realize Trump's ENTIRE team having communicated heavily with Russia for aid is tangentially related to impeachment, but in the context of just straight up denying anything happened simply because Trump was not removed over it (and thus, in their minds, is completely innocent of all crimes) it feels incredibly off-topic.
    Sealioning at its finest. It's what they do. Pretty sure they are all sockpuppet accounts anyway.

  18. #12318
    Quote Originally Posted by Martymark View Post
    My opinion: To justify impeachment? No, I wouldn't consider it a "high crime". Censure would have been fine though.
    You don't think it is a high crime to withhold funds so a foreign government can go after a political rival....who happened to be a former Vice President and congressman just for personal benefit?

    What the hell is a high crime then?
    M.A.A.A. Make America Adult Again

  19. #12319
    Quote Originally Posted by Drutt View Post
    "High crimes and misdemeanors" is the bar, though. While I would agree Trump's actions with Ukraine don't fit my personal definition of "high crime", it sure as Hell shoots past "misdemeanor" in seriousness.

    Here are some examples of "misdemeanors" (C+P job):

    Class A:

    Assault causing bodily injury
    Burglary
    DUI with no bodily injury
    Resisting arrest
    Perjury
    Possession of a controlled substance
    Unlawful possession of a weapon
    Violation of a restraining order

    Class B:

    Criminal trespass
    Certain types of terroristic threats
    Certain types of assault
    Indecent exposure
    Prostitution
    Graffiti
    Theft of property worth more than $50, but less than $500

    Class C:

    Disorderly conduct
    Certain types of assault
    Reckless damage or destruction
    Leaving a child unattended in a vehicle
    Criminal trespass
    Theft of property worth less than $50
    Issuing a bad check
    Falsely reporting a missing child or person

    Trump's actions are objectively worse than a significant number of the above. "Misdemeanor" is a low bar, because the President's actions are supposed to be beyond reproach.
    you went through all this effort, but didn't bother to look up what "high crimes" are in the context of the constitution in regards to impeachment?

    high rimes refers to the office, not exceptionally bad crimes. go read.

  20. #12320
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    You don't think it is a high crime to withhold funds so a foreign government can go after a political rival....who happened to be a former Vice President and congressman just for personal benefit?

    What the hell is a high crime then?
    wearing a tan suit

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